Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?

Scandi Red said:
Defensively speaking Park must be one of the best wingers/attacking midfielders we've had! I really miss him...

Bruno with 31 yellow cards vs Park with just 6 :lol:
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He was incredible. And I didn't expect Bruno's defensive stats to be anywhere nearly as good as Park's but he either runs him close or is comfortably ahead in almost every defensive metric (apart from interceptions, interestingly). Obviously, it's easier to have good defensive stats in a crappy team but the converse of that is that it's easier to have good offensive stats in a good team and Bruno's offensive contributions are in a different league to Ji Sung, so we can only imagine how ridiculous they would have been if he played for the same team that Park did.

Side note. I'd say Antony would run Park close in terms of his defensive stuff. But he badly needs to up his game in the final third, where Park did much better than him. And doing better than Park, offensively, should be a low bar!
 
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Jordi Cruyff 99 said:
Fernandes is a long surname?

Your comment makes no sense considering others with names with as many characters, or longer, are not referred to by their first name.

People on this forum write posts at length but choose out of first or second name as a method through which to save a millisecond? Haha.

You’re not making any sense at all.
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Just seen this.

Yes, Fernandes is a long surname. In fact, only one player in our current squad has a longer surname and nobody ever types his name out, they use his initials instead (you win a lollipop if you can guess who I'm talking about).

Hope this makes sense to you. I kept it as simple as possible.
 
justsomebloke said:
Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.
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What it does tell us is that year on year his output (goals/assists) are diminishing while his performances - pass selection, completion etc are getting worse.
 
He's turning 30 this year, this is probably his peak. Who'd have thought back when he came 4 years ago that he'd waste his prime and we'd achieve nothing of note
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Agree 100%. And the simple fact is that not one player in an unsuccesful squad will be adored. Look at all their performance threads this season. There's not a hint of adoration there. Just varying degrees of dislike, running all the way up to actual loathing (invariably from the most prolific posters in each performance thread, go figure)

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26
  • Attack
    Goals 19
    Goals per match 0.12
    Headed goals 5
    Goals with right foot 9
    Goals with left foot 4
    Penalties scored 0
    Freekicks scored 0
    Shots 129
    Shots on target 43
    Shooting accuracy % 33%
    Hit woodwork 4
    Big chances missed 4
  • Team Play
    Assists 21
    Passes 3,238
    Passes per match 21.03
    Big Chances Created 4
    Crosses 191
    Cross accuracy % 23%
    Through balls 27
    Accurate long balls 55
  • Discipline
    Yellow cards 6
    Red cards 0
    Fouls 64
    Offsides 10
  • Defence
    Tackles 250
    Tackle success % 71%
    Blocked shots 38
    Interceptions 132
    Clearances 48
    Headed Clearance 4
    Recoveries 368
    Duels won 544
    Duels lost 480
    Successful 50/50s 67
    Aerial battles won 43
    Aerial battles lost 70
    Errors leading to goal 0

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35
  • Attack
    Goals 47
    Goals per match 0.33
    Headed goals 2
    Goals with right foot 42
    Goals with left foot 3
    Penalties scored 16
    Freekicks scored 1
    Shots 393
    Shots on target 150
    Shooting accuracy % 38%
    Hit woodwork 15
    Big chances missed 29
  • Team Play
    Assists 36
    Passes 7,683
    Passes per match 53.73
    Big Chances Created 79
    Crosses 658
    Cross accuracy % 23%
    Through balls 95
    Accurate long balls 502
  • Discipline
    Yellow cards 31
    Red cards 0
    Fouls 151
    Offsides 33
  • Defence
    Tackles 241
    Tackle success % 56%
    Blocked shots 115
    Interceptions 93
    Clearances 137
    Headed Clearance 70
    Recoveries 743
    Duels won 586
    Duels lost 781
    Successful 50/50s 109
    Aerial battles won 70
    Aerial battles lost 139
    Errors leading to goal 1
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Yeah it's no coincidence that many of the players widely considered to be United legends were in the same squad at the same time, legends get their status from the team's shared accomplishments during a certain era. Not just us but whenever we think of legendary Real Madrid, Barca, AC or even Arsenal players we tend to picture them as a package of legends from a club's glory years. Can't really think of cases where a single United player who spent his years here during a poor decade for the club is generally considered a legend, because as you say it's hard to really adore even brilliant players from an unsuccessful squad.
 
He's not perfect, but certainly the best Captain post-Fergie era.

Start losing his head when we're heading to another lose? If every United players have this kinda attitude, the positive net would be much bigger than otherwise. Would love to see how Keano would react on this team. He'd probably on restraining order already.

I don't think he's a legend for now. But certainly one of my United favorite of all time.
 
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No but probably one of the better players since Fergie left but that’s not been difficult I rate him as a player. Uniteds club legends are Charlton, Law, Best, Robson ,Schmeichel Cantona, Keane, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Rooney, Christiano. I don’t think i would rate him ahead of Rudd, Yorke, Cole, Irwin Neville, Sheringham,Nani, Carrick, Hughes, Ince, RVP, Berbatov. Would he even make Uniteds top 30 players all time?
 
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jadaba said:
Yeah it's no coincidence that many of the players widely considered to be United legends were in the same squad at the same time, legends get their status from the team's shared accomplishments during a certain era. Not just us but whenever we think of legendary Real Madrid, Barca, AC or even Arsenal players we tend to picture them as a package of legends from a club's glory years. Can't really think of cases where a single United player who spent his years here during a poor decade for the club is generally considered a legend, because as you say it's hard to really adore even brilliant players from an unsuccessful squad.
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Where would you rate Bruno in the list of United legends?
 
Jeppers7 said:
Where would you rate Bruno in the list of United legends?
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I wouldn't consider him a legend now, and given the current trajectory of things I don't expect that this'll change whenever he leaves the club. If he were to leave tomorrow I'd consider him a real bright spot during a poor era, someone who entertained and sometimes frustrated us but whose occasional brilliance wasn't nearly enough to meaningfully lift the team out of its dire state.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think his performances have been overall decent this season. In the context of a badly misfiring team. And the misfiring is for reasons that have nothing to do with Bruno. Forwards who can't finish. Midfielders who can't get a grip on the game. A constantly makeshift defence. An overall dysfunctional nightmare to play in. He has had a few poor games but at this point in the season every player in the league has had a few poor games. Because of all the toxicity around him/the team, there have been plenty of good performances getting called out as shite by his critics (sometimes patiently corrected by @justsomebloke) which creates a false impression of him playing much worse overall than he actually has. This has happened after every single defeat, bar none. And there's a been a lot of them this season!

The one criticism I do think is fair for this season is his tendency to lose his head when things are going against us. There have been some exceptions (comebacks against Forest, Sheffield and Villa) but there's been a definite trend of him playing worse towards the end of games when we're desperate to get a result. I don't think being captain suits him, as I don't think he's calm enough for the role and gets too emotional when we need a calm head in charge. A flaw in his mentality that the responsibility of being captain seems to have exacerbated. But, as I said higher up, there are no other more obvious candiates. Which sums up the train wreck of a team he's playing for.
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Yeah that’s all fair enough - I just think he’s been as good as last year or his first two seasons. He’s a very good player, but not a legend, in my opinion.
 
Jeppers7 said:
I agree….Park is nowhere near a United legend. He’s a cult hero for some that’s about it. He played regularly better than Bruno though.
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For some reason I'm only noticing you replied to this now. Cult hero is a pretty accurate description of our fanbase's feeling towards Park. I guess another player with cult status who would be considered a legend by most is Cantona, and he was only here five seasons - although his and the team's accomplishments--as well as even his personality--make his legend status pretty difficult to argue against. I wonder if it's possible for even any truly remarkable player to be considered a legend in a shorter time than 5 seasons.
 
lost7 said:
He's turning 30 this year, this is probably his peak. Who'd have thought back when he came 4 years ago that he'd waste his prime and we'd achieve nothing of note
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Bruno was 25 playing ball in the Portuguese league (all due respect) with top clubs (United included) reportedly shying away due to his shortcomings (negligent in possession etc) 1 2

This is more so a case of Bruno being lucky that United has been so bad for so many years and that he ended up here and has had the career he’s had rather than him “wasting his prime”
 
TsuWave said:
Bruno was 25 playing ball in the Portuguese league (all due respect) with top clubs (United included) reportedly shying away due to his shortcomings (negligent in possession etc) 1 2

This is more so a case of Bruno being lucky that United has been so bad for so many years and that he ended up here and has had the career he’s had rather than him “wasting his prime”
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Harsh, but fair. It’s not an insult to say it’s nearly impossible to dominate most sides in this era when Bruno is your talisman. Never going to be a legend in my book.
 
Depends if we win anything big with him. He's a great player but he's been at the club in an era that's been a disaster. At a club like United, you aren't a legend unless you help us achieve legendary things. If we were a team that has never won much in our history he'd be a nailed on legend, but at United he's a cult hero at best.
 
Jeppers7 said:
What it does tell us is that year on year his output (goals/assists) are diminishing while his performances - pass selection, completion etc are getting worse.
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His pass completion is a little bit down compared to previous years yes, but it's not a very big difference. So is his scoring, particularly compared to his first two seasons. But the latter at least is hard to separate from the general scoring malaise of the team as a whole - it is difficult in such situations to say whether it's team performance affecting individual output, or the other way around. As an aside, I've often thought recently that it looks to me like he's playing a more withdrawn role than before when we're established in the attacking third. You don't see him moving into the box as much as before. I'm not sure if that's by design, but you'd expect it to affect his scoring output.

Overall and AFAICS, the stats tell exactly the same story as the (attentive) eye test - he's a bit below his usual level, but his level is still high to very high. Among our established high-level performers, it's really just him and maybe Shaw who can make that claim. People who look at this and argue he's shit or talk as if he's delivered a collapse in performance need to have their eyes checked, or question their football understanding.

The legend discussion we can have when he's retired.
 
justsomebloke said:
His pass completion is a little bit down compared to previous years yes, but it's not a very big difference. So is his scoring, particularly compared to his first two seasons. But the latter at least is hard to separate from the general scoring malaise of the team as a whole - it is difficult in such situations to say whether it's team performance affecting individual output, or the other way around. As an aside, I've often thought recently that it looks to me like he's playing a more withdrawn role than before when we're established in the attacking third. You don't see him moving into the box as much as before. I'm not sure if that's by design, but you'd expect it to affect his scoring output.

Overall and AFAICS, the stats tell exactly the same story as the (attentive) eye test - he's a bit below his usual level, but his level is still high to very high. Among our established high-level performers, it's really just him and maybe Shaw who can make that claim. People who look at this and argue he's shit or talk as if he's delivered a collapse in performance need to have their eyes checked, or question their football understanding.

The legend discussion we can have when he's retired.
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That’s your opinion I’d suggest the opposite. Anyone who thinks a player turning over the ball making the same decisions over and over again won’t a) impact on the team. and b) increase their personal stats…needs to question their football understanding or have their eyes checked. This is without even getting into Bruno’s weaknesses. Passing is his strength…along with workrate and availability. There’s not much else he’s good at.
 
Jeppers7 said:
That’s your opinion I’d suggest the opposite. Anyone who thinks a player turning over the ball making the same decisions over and over again won’t a) impact on the team. and b) increase their personal stats…needs to question their football understanding or have their eyes checked. This is without even getting into Bruno’s weaknesses. Passing is his strength…along with workrate and availability. There’s not much else he’s good at.
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That's an outlandish description. And sorry, the conclusion is just too massively contradicted by both what any relatively unbiased eye can see and his demonstrable impact to deserve to be taken seriously.
 
"Legend" ? I'm not even sure he should be a guaranteed starter but allow me to elaborate on that.

We got Bruno when our midfield was pants as was most of our team. He comes in, runs around a lot (some might argue like a headless chicken), his work rate gets praised scored a lot of penalties and, to be fair, initially was streets ahead most of our other players. My argument is that our "other players" were not a strong benchmark to compare him against. He looked good amongst our dross.

Because of this we adapted our tactics and playing style to make him the main man in our team. We allow him freedom to do what he wants and he decision making in those moments is not great and certainly NOT "legend status"
 
The way I see it there are 3 main ingredients for a legend. Having all 3 makes you are sure bet. 2/3 makes you hard to argue against.

Major trophies
Longevity (most of your career spent at the club)
Ability (one of the best on the team)

Bruno only has 1/3. If he stays at United for the rest of his career, while continually being a top performer, he will probably be a legend. Right now not even close.
 
justsomebloke said:
That's an outlandish description. And sorry, the conclusion is just too massively contradicted by both what any relatively unbiased eye can see and his demonstrable impact to deserve to be taken seriously.
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Your post might be relevant if nobody else was claiming similar and if I hadn’t posted statistics that back up my observation.

All you’re doing is claiming your opinion as fact and trying to diminish an argument with excessive hysteria which suggests that actually you can’t find any foundation to back up your claims or to counter my argument. So you just want to deflect. Poor but happens so often here.
 
Strangest Tribe said:
Lee Martin is more of a ‘legend’ than Bruno will ever be.
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Lee Martin will always be in my eyes for giving me one of the happiest memories of my life, was a bit young to fully remember the 1985 final but 1990 was the first trophy me and my Grandad fully enjoyed together and even my Nan got involved in the celebrations.
 
Only with trophies. He's been a joy for most of his time here. A real shame for him if he doesn't win a big one
 
I think it would be difficult to call him a legend if he never wins a serious trophy with us. I do think he will be remembered as the best post SAF player up to this point, at the very least.
 
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