When he has a bad game he looks awful. He starts to get skills tourettes or something and starts pulling off skills at bizzare moments. When plays well though he is pacey and direct. He also displays some intelligent passing.
Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace
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Not consistently he hasn't but he's young.
Ridicule if you must, but it's my genuine observation. For me, it is deeper than just5 frustration at poor decisions, or trying tricks at the wrong time. That stuff is normal with young players. My biggest concern is the the worrying infrequency with which the tricks even work. 90% of the time something other than a simple 5 yard pass is attempted, it fails anyway.
He is not only over complicating his game, my worry is that he thinks he is a lot better than he is in the first place. This isn't a kid who is so good that he frustrates by beating a man one too many times, he frustrates because he invariably tries and fails to beat a man. I maintain that even since pre season, most of the stuff he tries never works. The end product is lacking but so is the actual technique in my view. He may look very technical and skillful to some, but I think that's largely due to his approach. Someone like Lingard, for example, has much more actual ability and grace to me.
He is not only over complicating his game, my worry is that he thinks he is a lot better than he is in the first place. This isn't a kid who is so good that he frustrates by beating a man one too many times, he frustrates because he invariably tries and fails to beat a man. I maintain that even since pre season, most of the stuff he tries never works. The end product is lacking but so is the actual technique in my view. He may look very technical and skillful to some, but I think that's largely due to his approach. Someone like Lingard, for example, has much more actual ability and grace to me.
I'm not too worried. I think that the over-complicating is the cause of the problem not the result. He hits too many tricks and skills to try and do something amazing, it fails, he gets frustrated, tries even more, everything stops working. He has the pace, power and trickery to get past most defenders for sure. It just looks to me like he's trying too hard at times (he hasn't played consistently all season). If you're talking about in general and not just his last few appearances then fair enough. I just think he's a young player whose probably not really thinking about what he's doing.
No need to ratchet up the drama by making him seem like a world beater who is under performing. He's simply a young, developing player, who if developed properly, has the natural talent to be very successful. As such, we should get behind him rather than make it seem as though he is under performing to lofty expectations.
I'm personally not convinced as of yet that he 'has the natural ability'. He has great physical attributes, but I think technically, he screws most things up and struggles with the basics often. And yes, I know he is young. I still think in comparison to other young developing players, he still looks the most unpolished technically. I believe players like Lingard, Sterling and Ince are all more graceful, just without the same brute force. They don't do/try the tricks of Zaha - but then again neither does Messi.
I haven't seen him play that much - only the United games and a couple for Palace, but the times I have seen him he's looked like a good talent. It was a bit annoying not seeing him in the first team for us over Young but maybe he really is that raw. If Moyes does not think he is as good as Young that's a worry, but he is still very young and it should be at least 3/4 years before we'll get an idea of his final level.
His ability is there and he is under no burden to impress anyone at this stage. Some players simply take a bit of time and management to reach their potential.
I would much rather you are right than I am.
I find it strange that he has rotated the squad so much and not been afraid to give young players a chance yet Zaha hasn't featured
For me given some of the pish served up by Young this year there is an issue between the two
Zaha impressed pre season and in the community shield - since then he's been largely ignored
For me given some of the pish served up by Young this year there is an issue between the two
Zaha impressed pre season and in the community shield - since then he's been largely ignored
Maybe because Moyes sees him in training while we don't, and is basing his decisions based on that?
Can remember Ronaldo being like that to start with, to compare him with Bebe?
WTF
The CAF's utterly insane this season. It reminds me of the old 606 forum or the comments section on the MEN articles.
Utterly retarded comment isn't it. For a start he can actually cross the ball. 2+2 makes 43 in this forum sometimes. He's only 21 for feck's sake and people are writing him off.
he'll go out on loan in january, and hopefully to a premiership side that he will be able to play and suits his game.
6 months of regular premiership football and we will have a clearer picture of how good he really is. hopefully he can make it here.
6 months of regular premiership football and we will have a clearer picture of how good he really is. hopefully he can make it here.
He's got something of a young Nani in him. The talent is there but for some reason its not able to connect the dots and turn into the good player he can be. Loaning him may be an option.
Honestly we should think twice before spending a substantial sum of money on EPL and Championship players. Usually we're ending up overpaying. On the other hand young talent from abroad (Pogba, Januzaj, Pique and Rossi) has been mint and had/would have done very well if we only shown more faith on them/wanted to stay.
Honestly we should think twice before spending a substantial sum of money on EPL and Championship players. Usually we're ending up overpaying. On the other hand young talent from abroad (Pogba, Januzaj, Pique and Rossi) has been mint and had/would have done very well if we only shown more faith on them/wanted to stay.
Was anyone expecting him to show great form for the U21s when he has started two games for us all season?
He needs to be playing games every week at his age, if not for us then he needs or go out on loan. Otherwise he's likely to stagnate or regress.
He needs to be playing games every week at his age, if not for us then he needs or go out on loan. Otherwise he's likely to stagnate or regress.
I thought Wigan did a great job of exposing Zaha's weaknesses, he tends to put his head down and rely on speed, but if a defender sits back they can pin him to the sideline. Fine prospect, but very raw.
Unfortunately he hasn't played much since he's gotten here which is doing nothing positive for his development as a footballer. Seriously, if Moyes felt he wasn't close to being ready then we should've sent him out on loan to Crystal Palace. Just poor management.
Loaning him to Crystal Palace would achieve nothing as they've let him play this way. He needs coaching the basics, which they've clearly been unwilling to do.
What exactly are the basics for a winger that he's underdeveloped in? His crossing's very good, he's got a good eye for a pass and in general is a very reliable passer, he tracks back well...surely such a damning criticism is based on more than just the fact he likes to go overboard on the tricks? Ronaldo was the same and you'd have to be off your rocker to criticise Sporting's academy/youth coaching.
any stick eh?The lad is 21 and just arrived from the Champiosnhip and you want to ship him out before he gets here?
Nothing wrong with getting him in for 6 months. It's not as if he won't develop training at Utd, then send him somewhere for the second half of the season.
Bad management my hole. Elevated expectations, that's the problem.
I agree with this. He seems to be getting written off purely on last night, which was his first game in how long? It seems easy to forget how good he has been in the last 2 seasons in the Championship (playing better opposition than Finland U21 I imagine!) and how he was more than just a bag of tricks. For a tricky winger, his crossing, final ball and knowing when to play the ball once beating his man all looked impressive for his age.
It's amazing how short memories can be. Alot of us watched that play off final, and it was all - "
Wank time! Ronaldo-esque" or whatever. Now he plays his first game after months of hardly any football whatsoever, in a team that only get a few days together to gel anyway, and it's immediately changed to "Bebe mk.II/Obertan, shit and raw, nothing but tricks" etc.Give the boy a chance. He was great last season. Now he's hardly played and that is probably the problem. He needs to play, either here, or elsewhere. It probably won't be here, not on a consistent basis, so I imagine he'll be loaned in January.
Needs a loan desperately. Asking him to turn up and perform after barely playing in the last few months is a bit unfair.
And stop the Bebe comparison ffs
And stop the Bebe comparison ffs
The basics as in decision making, understanding his role and how to be effective etc. The difference between the Ronaldo that you talk about and Zaha is their age and experience. Ronaldo was a kid that was just starting out, he obviously needed to be moulded into a footballer. Zaha is that bit older and has played quite a lot of competitive football now at a decent level. The fact that he still looks ridiculously raw speaks volumes of either the coaching he's had or himself.
My guess is that Palace realised he was talented and just encouraged him to go out and play his game. Now he needs to learn how to hone his skills and apply them at the highest level. Crystal Palace isn't the place to do that.
This was the night before the Arsenal match. I didn't catch him yesterday, I watched Felliani for Belgium was he as bad as some are saying?
He says it was just shisha.
I just think the Ronaldo comparison is lazy. Yes, both favoured a step-over, but for me he is still more comparable to Bebe. I genuinely am not as convinced as most others seem to be that Zaha has the 'natural ability' that people speak of. I think his attempts to do the outrageous makes him appear to have the natural ability, but just can't put it together. I still think a finer eye can detect a difference between him and a young Ronaldo or Nani, as I have seen referenced in this thread. For me, he looks a player who has based his style on a youg Ronaldo or Nani, but that does not make him good at it.
I don't expect him to be fully complete just yet. Other young wingers are also unpolished. I am just concerned at what I feel is a lack of ability. I think that is somewhat masked at the moment by his style and ambition. The tricks are not only ill-timed or the wrong choice - they do not actually work. The touch is incomparable to the likes of Lingard, Ravel, Sterling and Ince in my view. I am not comparing him to Ribery, I am comparing him to his direct competition at U21 level. He has played far more professional games than all of those too, so the whole 'inexperienced' thing is a bit overplayed I think.
Ultimately, the main difference between Zaha and young Ronaldo/Nani/Quaresma etc is that while they didn't have the end product, the ability was clear and they still went past players for fun. For me, Zaha tries to go past players for fun.
With regards to Bebe, I don't think it's as far-fetched as some others do. Bebe has shown pockets of promise too, let's not forget. He is physically exceptional for a start, fast and strong. He has also had his share of good games/moments for our reserves, and has impressed on loan in the Portuguese League. He's also impressed in the first team in pre-season last year, and has gotten goals for the first team, including at CL level, and for Portuguese U21. That list was just to those to say how much Zaha has 'proved' in comparison to Bebe, by the way, not to suggest he's a great player.
Watching them play first-team footy for us, I see Bebe struggle to cross well, which Zaha can do better. He is much more of a goal threat though. For me, a typical Zaha moment is to receive the ball, try a trick, get dispossessed, and then foul the defender in trying to win it back. Or get played through in a good position, and produce something that is neither a cross or a shot, and then put his hands on his head while everyone praises the attempt. Basically, both are raw and unpolished, and have strengths and weaknesses. Hence the comparison. Neither have demonstrated real top class technical ability in my view.
It's lazy to just put Ronaldo, Robinho, Denilson and Zaha in the same bracket, when there are vast differences in the 'natural ability' that people speak of. Just because they all do step-overs doesn't make them in the same league.
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He seemed desperate to impress yesterday. Perhaps understandable given his current situation but as a result he tried way too hard. He had a few nice moments and was unlucky not to get a goal and/or assist to his name but all in all it was one of the poorer performances I've seen from him. That's the cut and dry of it, no big deal. He needs regular football, that's all. Overreactions from the usual suspects are just part and parcel of this place now.
It's really incredible that people are doubting his talent when only five months earlier, he dragged a poor crystal palace side to Premier League inspite of being just 20.
This was the night before the Arsenal match. I didn't catch him yesterday, I watched Felliani for Belgium was he as bad as some are saying?
He would have known the night before if he made the squad or not, I do not really see any problem with him letting his hair down 1 night, aslong as he isnt going over the top.
Look at the bird he is with anyway, who wouldn't wanna spend the night with her
Agreed to both points in green.
What a bizarre turn this thread has taken.
Its just the usual bullshit. People hailed him as the next big thing. Anyone who watched him properly at Palace would have seen the "bad" side to his game. Its always been there. He still has immense potential in some respects although its far from certain that it will be realised.
That's been my opinion long before we bought him as well for what its worth.
He would have known the night before if he made the squad or not, I do not really see any problem with him letting his hair down 1 night, aslong as he isnt going over the top.
Look at the bird he is with anyway, who wouldn't wanna spend the night with her
I hope he did deal with her. She's niceee. That was definitely shisha by the way. To the guy above yes a lot of individuals have good feet and can do step overs but this lad has managed to make it to the to level doing it. The natural ability is there he just needs quicken his thought process and know how to make his skills benefit him. At the minute he's treating football like a 5 aside. If you watch him he will always take two people out the game as he is dangerous if left un marked. A loan spell at a stoke getting kicked and shut down week in week out will improve him.
I probably watched him 8 or 9 times last season, so there'll be others who are more knowledgeable, but I never saw him as someone who would come in and immediately take the league by storm or anything. He has bad habits and he lacks a bit of maturity in his game, but the reason we bought him is the other stuff: the inventiveness, the willingness to be brave on the ball, the problems his pace will cause teams. There are no guarantees he'll train on, but if he does, and I think he will, he'll be a really, really good player for us.
The biggest problem he's had is Moyes taking over. Moyes is under massive pressure and blooding a player like Zaha is a risk, particularly when you have two proven performers like Valencia and Nani ahead of him. If Fergie had still been here I suspect we'd have seen more of him by now.
The biggest problem he's had is Moyes taking over. Moyes is under massive pressure and blooding a player like Zaha is a risk, particularly when you have two proven performers like Valencia and Nani ahead of him. If Fergie had still been here I suspect we'd have seen more of him by now.
Yes because it should've been clear to Moyes that he isn't going to use him much after preseason. Players develop with experience, by that I mean experience on the field of play. The training isn't taking him anywhere hence he has undoubtedly gone backwards as evidence points out. If our training could develop players then we would never send anyone on loan but we do 'cause we know the value of game time.
The lad is 21 and just arrived from the Champiosnhip and you want to ship him out before he gets here?
Nothing wrong with getting him in for 6 months. It's not as if he won't develop training at Utd, then send him somewhere for the second half of the season.
Bad management my hole. Elevated expectations, that's the problem.
Its bad management as we've wasted 6 months where he could be developing. He's 21, he needs game time at the level he's expected to perform at, and we aren't giving it to him. Not only that, but we didn't send him to where he would get such game time.
Well I've said my piece I suppose. Your view is as worthy as mine, and we'll see how it plays out. I think people have been missing my point anyway. The response has been the typical rhetoric about a young player needing games to improve decision-making etc, wheras I think he simply doesn't have the raw/natural ability that people seem to think he does. He doesn't have the raw ability as Denilson or Robinho for instance, so it isn't just a case of him harnessing an amazing natural talent. That amazing natural talent is debateable in itself I think. I don't really see him pull the ball out of the sky brilliantly, and his skills do not work in the way Ronaldo/Denilson etc did. Therefore, decision making and maturity isn't the only deficiency in my view. I'd be elated if he was simply a circus pony beating players one too many times. The problem is he's a circus pony not beating them at all. I am not an idiot, I have seen young, skilful players before who need maturity. However, I can appreciate they don't all necessarily have enough ability to make it to the topeither.
To be honest, I've just repeated myself, which was not my intention. I suppose we will have to see how it plays out, and of course I hope I am the clueless idiot I am being portrayed as by the footballing scholars of this thread. Frankly, I don't think we can afford for too many big money signings to not work out for us, given we are unlikely to just ruthlessly cut them and try again. So hopefully this is not the case and he surprises me.
Bit unfair, I think. I have no doubt he's learning lots playing with top players every day, even in training. I think we'll smooth off a few of his edges and then send him out on loan in January a better player.
Of course the other arguement is that he's coming off the back of 3 seasons of first team football with Palace... so he's had plenty of game time, what he might need is 6 months good solid high level coaching and training, and then to go out and to put it into practice. But yadda yadda yadda - "new tealady isn't as good - bad management."
Fair enough.. I wouldn't worry about the money though. He wouldn't stop us buying another winger but like you said if he failed.. He'd be failing for the majority of his contract like an Anderson.
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