Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace

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True, but I offer two counterpoints:

1. Two of our three experienced wingers, Young and Valencia, have looked dire most of the season; and our third experienced winger, Nani, just never got it together. In other words, Zaha's competition for limited spaces certainly created an opportunity for a chance.

2. Januzaj also looked very good in preseason, against substandard teams. Yet he got a shot and Zaha didn't. And I think we would all agree that Januzaj has been fantastic. Zaha might not have been fantastic, but he at least deserved a chance to prove himself one way or the other.

1. They haven't been that bad. Both seem to get criticised even when they have good games, like Cardiff recently. They will obviously suffer anyway without a settled midfield, Van Persie or Rooney missing, or having to play with Smalling or Buttner. Nani has been injured for most of the season and still has something to offer if we can keep him fit for a decent length of time.

2. Januzaj looked better than Zaha, so did Lingard for that matter. I watched a fair few Palace games last season and Zaha was a liability at times, even in the Championship. He did make up for it with some pieces of real quality, though.

From what I've seen, I wouldn't say Zaha is anywhere near ready yet.
 
He impressed in the reserves and Zaha impressed in the Championship. There is a big difference between the leagues.
No he impressed the first team and the manager when he trained with them at the end of the season and the start of preseason before the tour. That was when Moyes decided to bring him on tour. He initially wasn't meant to go with the first team.

Anyway, why can't people just trust the judgement of a manager who has seen the kid play every day in training? A lot are basing their opinion on assumptions and preseason (which means feck all). The coaches would know a lot better than the fans whether Zaha was ready or not. Just another stupid stick for agenda posters to beat Moyes with. If Ole and Holloway, and now Moyes have implied that Zaha has training problems, then that's clearly a factor as to why he hasn't featured much for United. 3 managers can't be all wrong.
 
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No he impressed the first team and the manager when he trained with them at the end of the season and the start of preseason before the tour. That was when Moyes decided to bring him on tour. He initially wasn't meant to go with the first team.

Anyway, why can't people just trust the judgement of a manager who has seen the kid play every day in training? A lot are basing their opinion on assumptions and preseason (which means feck all). The coaches would know a lot better than the fans whether Zaha was ready or not. Just another stupid stick for agenda posters to beat Moyes with. If Ole and Holloway, and now Moyes have implied that Zaha has training problems, then that's clearly a factor as to why he hasn't featured much for United. 3 managers can't be all wrong.

And how did he get to train with the first team?

And I think you're bang on with your second paragraph, people are looking at every little thing to bash or defend Moyes even when it should pretty much be a non-starter.
 
And how did he get to train with the first team?

And I think you're bang on with your second paragraph, people are looking at every little thing to bash or defend Moyes even when it should pretty much be a non-starter.
The story is that in one of the very first Moyes pre season training sessions, there as an injury in the first team so they drafted in Januzaj for that session. He went on to impress the staff so much that day that they decided to take him in tour. Basically, he got a bit of a lucky break but he snatched it with both arms.
 
And how did he get to train with the first team?

And I think you're bang on with your second paragraph, people are looking at every little thing to bash or defend Moyes even when it should pretty much be a non-starter.
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/manchesterunited/id/3820?cc=3436

Adnan Januzaj started preseason training with Manchester United’s reserves. He spent the first two days in July with the players alongside whom he starred last season, when he was voted United’s reserve player of the year after stepping up from the youth ranks.

New manager David Moyes had been told all about his talent, but he had a large number of established first-teamers to watch and work with ahead of a lengthy tour.

On the third day of training, one first-teamer dropped out of a training session. Former player and new United coach Phil Neville was there:

"We brought Adnan up to train with us," Neville recalled. "We could see merit in him having a bit of experience with the first team after he’d done so well last season."

What happened next stunned the watching eyes.

"Within five minutes of doing a little 7-vs.-3 possession, you could see the vision of him playing for Man United’s first team," said Neville.

"At the end of the session, all of the coaches got together. We were unanimous in our thoughts on what he’d done. He played like a Man United player. He’d wanted the ball, he was brave, he went into a tackle and smashed someone.

"Some kids are in awe when they are promoted to the first team, they pussyfoot about. Adnan looked like a Man United player. He was like 'Come on, I want more of this, I should have been in here yesterday, not today.'

"Straight away, the manager came up to me and said ‘He will be a Man United first-team player.'"

Three weeks later, Januzaj was wandering around a hotel in Yokohama, Japan, wearing one of Rio Ferdinand’s "5" caps and wondering why his phone didn’t work properly. He was on a floor reserved for the United party.
 
this situation is expected really. spending the first 6 months training with united players at carrington and then a PL loan move in january. this cardiff move is going to benefit him. the only problem is that the fans were expecting zaha to be given a bit more chances earlier, and rightly so given the form of our wingers these days.
 
Erm... Hate to point out the bleeding obvious but Valencia or Young would start for Cardiff, every single game.

The loan will do Zaha a lot of good but let's see him nail down a place in their first XI before saying he should be starting for United.
Probably. They're a lot more experienced and solid for sure.

However, we have at times lacked class and creativity and I think we definitely should have brought him on here and there to add something different. He's a hell of a lot more skillful than them so it would have been a nice option to use.
 
If Cardiff get hammered and Zaha fails to impress in the next game, just watch the thread change direction. :)

Not really, seeing as there were many people on here calling for him to get games long before he even went on loan to Cardiff.

The club have handled the Zaha situation badly. But that's all done and I hope he does well at Cardiff and replaces the crap we have playing for us right now.
 
I don't know about "badly". We can't say for sure. It's possible that Zaha's attitude wasnt right given what Ole said about him having to "want it badly".

But yeah, on face value, we could at least given him some sub appearances to spark us into life and provide penetration.
 
I don't know about "badly". We can't say for sure. It's possible that Zaha's attitude wasnt right given what Ole said about him having to "want it badly".

But yeah, on face value, we could at least given him some sub appearances to spark us into life and provide penetration.

Perhaps that was overly harsh. But Zaha came to us in a very confident frame of mind and backed it up with a good pre-season. With the way he was treated after that, it probably drained away all his confidence. Had our players been doing well, it would have been understandable but they weren't and he still wasn't getting games.

Let's just hope he does well at Cardiff.
 
Perhaps that was overly harsh. But Zaha came to us in a very confident frame of mind and backed it up with a good pre-season. With the way he was treated after that, it probably drained away all his confidence. Had our players been doing well, it would have been understandable but they weren't and he still wasn't getting games.

Let's just hope he does well at Cardiff.
What is this 'the way he was treated' crap? Moyes wouldn't have left him in the dark as to why he wasn't picked. He would have explained to him clearly and ask Zaha to step up his game in training. Januzaj grabbed his chance with both hands in training. Zaha clearly hasn't.
 
Not really, seeing as there were many people on here calling for him to get games long before he even went on loan to Cardiff.

The club have handled the Zaha situation badly. But that's all done and I hope he does well at Cardiff and replaces the crap we have playing for us right now.
How do we know the club has handled the Zaha situation badly? We know absolutely nothing of what goes on day after day in training. We know absolutely nothing of what Zaha's attitude is.

I did hear a whisper a while ago that he simply wasn't picking up what the coaches were trying to teach him in training, whether he thought he knew better or was just too unintelligent to be able to pick it up I don't know. That's only a rumour though, so I'm not presenting it as fact.

If Zaha was showing up well in training every day and looking better than our other wingers - which shouldn't be too hard - does anyone think we wouldn't have been seeing him in the starting eleven? Despite what some people think Moyes and his coaching team are not clueless idiots, deliberately keeping Zaha back for no reason.

I wish him well in Cardiff, but I have a niggling feeling we may never see him in a Man Utd shirt again. I hope for both his sake and ours I'm wrong about that, but time will tell.
 
What is this 'the way he was treated' crap? Moyes wouldn't have left him in the dark as to why he wasn't picked. He would have explained to him clearly and ask Zaha to step up his game in training. Januzaj grabbed his chance with both hands in training. Zaha clearly hasn't.

Signed for 15m in January, wins promotion with his club, does well in pre-season, starts the community shield and then doesn't play until December. All this when his competition in the side have done sweet fa. Way to lower the confidence of any young player.

All this training nonsense is just that, nonsense. There's no point in commenting on something when we don't have the full picture about what happens behind the scenes. If this arrangement works out and Zaha comes back to the club and has a stormer then well done to the club. But if this results in him leaving without ever getting a proper chance while we are still saddled with Valencia and Young then well....
 
Perhaps that was overly harsh. But Zaha came to us in a very confident frame of mind and backed it up with a good pre-season. With the way he was treated after that, it probably drained away all his confidence. Had our players been doing well, it would have been understandable but they weren't and he still wasn't getting games.

Let's just hope he does well at Cardiff.

I do agree that he should have gotten more opportunities. But I can't say for sure whether he was treated badly.

What is this 'the way he was treated' crap? Moyes wouldn't have left him in the dark as to why he wasn't picked. He would have explained to him clearly and ask Zaha to step up his game in training. Januzaj grabbed his chance with both hands in training. Zaha clearly hasn't.

It is possible he hasn't been handled very well. It happens all the time. Every manager doesn't get everything right.

Like I've said above, I think he should have featured more for sure. Especially as a sub to liven things up.

But it's hard for us to say for sure that was ill-treated. Or even that he wasn't. My guess is that Moyes could have handled it slightly better giving him little chances here and there given how lacking in spark we've looked at times.
 
Signed for 15m in January, wins promotion with his club, does well in pre-season, starts the community shield and then doesn't play until December. All this when his competition in the side have done sweet fa. Way to lower the confidence of any young player.

All this training nonsense is just that, nonsense. There's no point in commenting on something when we don't have the full picture about what happens behind the scenes. If this arrangement works out and Zaha comes back to the club and has a stormer then well done to the club. But if this results in him leaving without ever getting a proper chance while we are still saddled with Valencia and Young then well....
The definition of irony.
 
Signed for 15m in January, wins promotion with his club, does well in pre-season, starts the community shield and then doesn't play until December. All this when his competition in the side have done sweet fa. Way to lower the confidence of any young player.

All this training nonsense is just that, nonsense. There's no point in commenting on something when we don't have the full picture about what happens behind the scenes. If this arrangement works out and Zaha comes back to the club and has a stormer then well done to the club. But if this results in him leaving without ever getting a proper chance while we are still saddled with Valencia and Young then well....
We both don't know why he hasn't played, so there's no point commenting on it then. I will say though, Moyes gave Adnan a lot of chances so it's not like he's not giving chances to young players. Something different must be going on behind the scenes between Adnan and Zaha.
 
What is this 'the way he was treated' crap? Moyes wouldn't have left him in the dark as to why he wasn't picked. He would have explained to him clearly and ask Zaha to step up his game in training. Januzaj grabbed his chance with both hands in training. Zaha clearly hasn't.

I'm not saying it is the case here but we've heard from players saying they were regularly put on the bench without really much of an explanation ( the first example I can think of is the relationship between Zlatan and Guardiola at Barca).
 
The definition of irony.

Not exactly.

I am not the one assuming he's shite in training because of a few 'whispers' in order to justify him not getting chances.

But then again people are too fecking defensive of Moyes and anyone criticizing him is a Moyes hater. I've backed Moyes in most things but this is one area for which he and club deserve criticism. It's not like I've waited until he's gone out on loan and done well to have a go. I've been saying for a few months now that it's baffling he hasn't got more game time.

In any case, we are just going round in circles. We are all United fans and let's hope he does well for Cardiff and comes back next season.
 
I'm not saying it is the case here but we've heard from players saying they were regularly put on the bench without really much of an explanation ( the first example I can think of is the relationship between Zlatan and Guardiola at Barca).
True, but the fact that Holloway and Ole have both come out and pretty much said that Zaha is the one that needs to decide whether he wants to be at the top, with Ole using Ronaldo's dedication to training as an example, which makes me think that there's truth to the rumours that Zaha isn't as dedicated as Adnan in training.
 
imo Januzaj and Jesse were better in pre-season. Zaha was ok. He is too elaborate like CR7 in his early day. Jesse and Adnan are more direct which makes them more useful for us. Zaha needs a season long loan before he starts playing regularly for us
 
imo Januzaj and Jesse were better in pre-season. Zaha was ok. He is too elaborate like CR7 in his early day. Jesse and Adnan are more direct which makes them more useful for us. Zaha needs a season long loan before he starts playing regularly for us

Pretty much this, in the pre-season, Lingard was looking the best out of those three imo ( scored goals, assisted, no fancy stuff but pretty direct play ) and he didn't jump into squad either.
 
It's not as though Zaha didn't kick a ball for the first team. He did get a cameo or two and was pretty awful. Hit and miss for the reserves too. Looked a level below both Januzaj and Lingard.

He had barely played any football for months and then was just thrown in. Mental
 
imo Januzaj and Jesse were better in pre-season. Zaha was ok. He is too elaborate like CR7 in his early day. Jesse and Adnan are more direct which makes them more useful for us. Zaha needs a season long loan before he starts playing regularly for us

and Ronaldo was allowed to make his mistakes and learn in the first team...Zaha needs to impress at Cardiff, then we will see what he is capable of playing regular premiership football.
 
He had barely played any football for months and then was just thrown in. Mental

Hardly mental. He has to be "thrown in" at some point. He'd obviously finally improved to a point where he deserved a shot. Just a shame he was so poor on the day.

People are reading far too much into pre-season. When it's easy to look good against dire opposition. Same thing happens almost every summer.
 
I remember Neville saying Zaha was struggling a bit to adjust (to United and to the required level, etc.), which sounds plausible enough. Could be just the right move for him, this Cardiff stint under OGS. People see Valencia and Young performing badly and they view Zaha in light of this - but it obviously isn't that simple. If he isn't ready, he isn't ready - whether Valencia is in shite form or not isn't actually relevant.

Given what we've seen with Adnan so far there is no reason to think Moyes won't give a youngster his chance - IF he deserves it. Hopefully he'll benefit greatly from his loan and come back as a proper asset for us next season.
 
Er, yes?

Played an even better through ball against Villa. With his left foot.

Difference is that Valencia does it every 100 game, Zaha did it in his first game.

The biggest issue With Valencia is that he adds little to Our general play and is very one dimensional, Zaha can contribute in pretty much any way in attack, being very unpredictable. Zaha is by far the better player, but just to inexperienced and the loan is the right thing. Next season, he should replace Valencia in the squad.
 
I remember Neville saying Zaha was struggling a bit to adjust (to United and to the required level, etc.), which sounds plausible enough. Could be just the right move for him, this Cardiff stint under OGS. People see Valencia and Young performing badly and they view Zaha in light of this - but it obviously isn't that simple. If he isn't ready, he isn't ready - whether Valencia is in shite form or not isn't actually relevant.

Given what we've seen with Adnan so far there is no reason to think Moyes won't give a youngster his chance - IF he deserves it. Hopefully he'll benefit greatly from his loan and come back as a proper asset for us next season.

Agreed. No harm letting him be a big fish in a small pond again, to remind him why he was signed by United in the first place.
 
Agreed. No harm letting him be a big fish in a small pond again, to remind him why he was signed by United in the first place.

Aye - it'll do him good to get minutes against PL opposition regardless, and if he does well it'll be a confidence boost (it's a cliche but it's obviously important - look at poor Valencia in that regard). He seems to have something - but whether he can actually make it at United is still an open question for me. He needs polishing, that's quite obvious.
 
Hehe - I really don't think it'll be that bad. The lad seems a lot more edgy than Obertan was - more, let's say, directly dangerous, in spite of overdoing it in terms of step-overs and such. In that sense he reminds me more of Ronaldo than Obertain. Which I take as a good sign. But he has a long way to go - and he could very well end up as someone who just didn't have what it takes to sort out his talent, as it were. There are plenty of examples of that down the years - and we've had a few like that ourselves.
 
Flair players can't be benched in to form. Either you decide to go with them and realize it'll take 3~ years of inconsistency like with Ronaldo/Nani before they blossom. Or you simply shouldn't buy them yet as their development will stagnate completely playing 5 games a season or getting shipped on loans.

Nani played 41 games his first year with us, he was far worse then than he is today and much less consistent. But you really need to ride the wave of confidence with all flair players. I doubt Ronaldo would be anything but a Quaresma if we had benched him for 3 years straight because he wasn't perfect from the get-go. Nani played 40~ games a season for us from his first season here until 12-13. Nani just needed one poor season to go from maybe the worlds best winger to Quaresma 2.0.

Either you decide they are worth it and you play them in the first eleven - or you decide they aren't worth it and you sell them. There is nothing in between really that benefits the player and the club.
 
Well, Ronaldo was pretty a much a no-brainer, though. It was evident he had something quite special. It's easy to persist with a player like that - and he did contribute a great deal in spite of being frustrating.
 
The point was not about skill-level but rather about the fact that if you want to buy a flair-player he has to go almost straight in to the starting eleven or at the minimum get a high confidence role in the rotational system.

If you don't deem a flair player worthy of these two roles then you shouldn't buy them/ or just sell them as 2-4 years of bench-time is not going to help them improve in any sort of ways. The one exception is of course loans to other top clubs in Europe that allows them to continue their development. But rarely does a top club accept a competitors youth prospect on loan without a certain buy-out clause.

It is of course still possible to turn Zaha in to a Welbeck, he will without a doubt end up around that skill if we continue to alternate between lending him out and playing him in our reserves.

The difference is of course that Zaha was a pretty hefty purchase and Welbeck a homegrown talent.
 
1. They haven't been that bad. Both seem to get criticised even when they have good games, like Cardiff recently. They will obviously suffer anyway without a settled midfield, Van Persie or Rooney missing, or having to play with Smalling or Buttner. Nani has been injured for most of the season and still has something to offer if we can keep him fit for a decent length of time.

2. Januzaj looked better than Zaha, so did Lingard for that matter. I watched a fair few Palace games last season and Zaha was a liability at times, even in the Championship. He did make up for it with some pieces of real quality, though.

From what I've seen, I wouldn't say Zaha is anywhere near ready yet.

I agree Tony and Ashley have taken undue stick here on the caf, but they're hardly worthy of high praise either for their performances over the last two seasons. And as you rightly note, Nani has been injured most of this season.

However, if you're going to have a player on the first team squad and if other players in your position are struggling, which surely we can agree Ashley and Tony have been struggling this season, then giving a young player who was outstanding in the previous season (second division, admittedly) a chance against lesser prem clubs is a pretty straightforward call. All that's being suggested here is that he should have been a chance to play, not a guaranteed starting role.

We do know now, don't we, that Zaha can handle prem opponents? No one will argue that he's ready for City or Chelsea, but we would never know if he could make that leap if he were never given the chance to play against lesser opponents first.

Given his track record this season, Moyes does not get the benefit of the doubt over his handling of Zaha.
 
He's been awful so far. He doesn't look interested in the slightest
 
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