Wilfried Zaha - Sold to Crystal Palace

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Crashoutcassius said:
It's called having trust in your players, giving them a chance. Young is top ten all time premiership assists and Valencia was terrifying when at his best not that long ago. I think a far bigger mistake Moyes could have made is just drop Young and Valencia from the start and play Zaha, who was probably doing much worse in training, costing us about 200k a week to have Young and Valencia sit in the reserves without being given a chance.

If they don't continue to perform Moyes will replace them, as he has said. He'll probably replace them with Zaha if he is successful on loan
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Having trust is one thing, persisting with them despite them being poor for more than a year is not very smart. I am not suggesting Moyes should have come in and immediately started off with Zaha. But as the season unfolded and Valencia and Young became even worse it's staggering that he still did not get a chance.

We don't know what goes on in training, pointless speculating about that.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Januzaj would not have featured at all this season if we held to such a viewpoint.

Nobody is suggesting that eh should have been a mandatory starter each and every week, however with the form of our wingers and injures you would have expected him to make a greater number of appearances. Whilst i imagine that the deteriorating personal relationship increasingly played a role here, it is also reasonable to suspect that Moyes didn't take Zaha's style of football which is a pity.
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What does that even mean?

How is "the style of football" from Januzaj so radically different? Why would it appeal to moyes so much more than zaha?
 
While it is ridiculous that Zaha wasn't at least given a chance to prove himself, nothing I've seen in preseason or 45 minutes for Cardiff has me thinking he's remotely ready to play for Manchester United. The rawest of the raw.

This is Obertan against Wolfsburg level overreaction on the Caf. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Er, yes?

Played an even better through ball against Villa. With his left foot.
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I don't recall that instance offhand but either way it is not an exception which proves the rule in this case, to suggest any strong stylistic similarity between the two would be daft.
 
pocco said:
Bollocks. We saw against Wigan, in all his cameos and for the u21s that he isn't ready. He's talented, but he needs to seriously learn to play the game properly and apply himself. We can't afford him that time here right now.
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We can afford to play our other wingers who have been pathetically out of form but not give a chance to one of your younger players. That makes sense.
 
Bebe said:
While it is ridiculous that Zaha wasn't at least given a chance to prove himself, nothing I've seen in preseason or 45 minutes for Cardiff has me thinking he's remotely ready to play for Manchester United. The rawest of the raw.

This is Obertan against Wolfsburg level overreaction on the Caf. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
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I don't think anyone is calling him world class or anything like that. Just disappointed he didn't get a chance.
 
akash02 said:
We can afford to play our other wingers who have been pathetically out of form but not give a chance to one of your younger players. That makes sense.
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It's different with young players if you feel they aren't ready. We would have destroyed his confidence if we threw him into such a poorly performing team and expected him to do well.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I don't recall that instance offhand but either way it is not an exception which proves the rule in this case, to suggest any strong stylistic similarity between the two would be daft.
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Huh? Who's talking about a "stylistic similarity". Just pointing out that Zaha did nothing in his last appearance that Valencia (and Young) couldn't do. And have done already this season.

Valencia's played dozens of perfectky weighted through balls to Rafael this season. Young has a lovely weight of pass when he's on his game. What is really daft is to suggest only Zaha could have played in Bellamy like he did.

Daft or desperate for any excuse to discredit moyes. One of the two.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I don't think that either party has handled the situation as well as would be expected, you appear to have determined my motives for me though.

Do you see Valencia providing such a through ball to Bellamy? Young though more effective is still erratic, and wouldn't carry the same...unpredictability as Zaha [assuming Wilf remains committed at Cardiff].

Of course i don't know what Ole is trying to achieve and never made a claim to that effect, simply that the three players bring with them different qualities at present.
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Well there appears some bias on your behalf when you say 'neither of the above would have brought the same impact as Wilf did for Cardiff last week' so don't expect me to take you as being anywhere near objective. As I said, he seems to be a cause du jour, like Fabio was for a load of posters also.

What Moyes said perfectly explains the Zaha situation, and probably Fabio too. You just choose to ignore it to put your own spin on it to criticise the manager you clearly dislike. I can't stand agenda posters. Another for the ignore.
 
akash02 said:
We can afford to play our other wingers who have been pathetically out of form but not give a chance to one of your younger players. That makes sense.
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As bad as the likes of Valencia and Young have been, they're better than Zaha right now. Whilst they are inconsistent going forward, they do offer something defensively. Zaha doesn't even offer that and we're nowhere near solid enough to carry him. Whilst Januzaj is relatively inexperienced, he looks far more intelligent in his positioning off the ball, his work rate and his forward play also.
 
I'm in the "Zaha wasn't given a proper chance" camp. All arguments have been made on both sides, but I just can't see how Moyes could have concluded after his preseason performances that Zaha simply wasn't ready for prem action.
 
pocco said:
As bad as the likes of Valencia and Young have been, they're better than Zaha right now. Whilst they are inconsistent going forward, they do offer something defensively. Zaha doesn't even offer that and we're nowhere near solid enough to carry him. Whilst Januzaj is relatively inexperienced, he looks far more intelligent in his positioning off the ball, his work rate and his forward play also.
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Young has actually been pretty good of late, scoring goals and creating chances. He's also the best player at linking with Evra.

Valencia has been ok, scored a few, but let himself down with poor crossing any some bad defensive errors. I still feel the criticism of both is way over the top, but you seem to get extremes on here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not really getting into the bigger picture but it's tiresome the way every utterance from moyes is used as a reason to slag him off.

If he'd come out and said that wilf wasn't putting the effort in, or didn't look good enough for united at this point (or words to that effect) you can be 100% certain there would be people on here for belittling players in public and wilfully destroying Zaha's fragile confidence.
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True enough but that doesn't mean that I like the club going on the back foot about things all the time. I just don't see a strong enough leader in Moyes. I don't get the impression that he is able to assert his vision for the club very well. Judging by the weak and timid performances, the speculation about player unrest that we have seen, the players are not buying into it either. All this is reflected by the way he conducts himself.

Perhaps culling a number of club legends, a dissenting world class player or two and spending 200m on players might see things right. It is a bloody expensive way of ensuring that we have a stable and suitably dour Scottish manager?!

I am not the biggest Zaha fan anyway though I have come around recently as I have been impressed with his intelligent passing. If Moyes doesn't think he is ready then fine, end of, and that is how he should express it to the press IMO.
 
Gannicus said:
I'm in the "Zaha wasn't given a proper chance" camp. All arguments have been made on both sides, but I just can't see how Moyes could have concluded after his preseason performances that Zaha simply wasn't ready for prem action.
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The pre season opposition wasn't exactly Premiership standard though and Lingard was more impressive then Zaha.
 
kps88 said:
It's different with young players if you feel they aren't ready. We would have destroyed his confidence if we threw him into such a poorly performing team and expected him to do well.
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That didn't stop Moyes from giving Januzaj a go did it? And Zaha is far more experienced than him and played in pressure situations.

This is going round and round in circles. My opinion is quite clear cut. He should have been given chances to show what he could do instead of sticking with something that clearly wasn't working.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What does that even mean?

How is "the style of football" from Januzaj so radically different? Why would it appeal to moyes so much more than zaha?
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What does what mean?

It is true that they are both much of a type, Zaha is more of a rough diamond and this stage with a wilder streak to him i shouldn't wonder. Look, it is not necessarily an unreasonable starting point to prefer players who represent a known quantity, the disappointment comes in when this stances wasn't relaxed to the point where Wilf found himself with a few cameos for the team [form and injuries provided an opening].
 
pocco said:
As bad as the likes of Valencia and Young have been, they're better than Zaha right now. Whilst they are inconsistent going forward, they do offer something defensively. Zaha doesn't even offer that and we're nowhere near solid enough to carry him. Whilst Januzaj is relatively inexperienced, he looks far more intelligent in his positioning off the ball, his work rate and his forward play also.
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I don't know you can say Valencia and Young have been better than Zaha when the latter hasn't been given chances to prove otherwise. And Valencia has been terrible defensively as well not that we should be picking wingers on what they offer defensively.
 
akash02 said:
That didn't stop Moyes from giving Januzaj a go did it? And Zaha is far more experienced than him and played in pressure situations.

This is going round and round in circles. My opinion is quite clear cut. He should have been given chances to show what he could do instead of sticking with something that clearly wasn't working.
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Januzaj shone in training and when he was given a chance. Zaha struggled whenever he was given the chance and, reading between the lines of what Moyes has said, wasn't really performing in training either.
 
akash02 said:
I don't know you can say Valencia and Young have been better than Zaha when the latter hasn't been given chances to prove otherwise. And Valencia has been terrible defensively as well not that we should be picking wingers on what they offer defensively.
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Because I've been watching Zaha in the u21s. It's pretty obvious he's not ready. Apparently he's seriously shy and overwhelmed by being here. Throwing a player like that into our current situation isn't fair. If he had the same attitude/personality/confidence as Januzaj then he'd probably have been given more of a chance.

I disagree regarding Valencia to a certain extent. He's not been up to his usual standards defensively, but a lot of what he does do right goes unnoticed I think.
 
pocco said:
Januzaj shone in training and when he was given a chance. Zaha struggled whenever he was given the chance and, reading between the lines of what Moyes has said, wasn't really performing in training either.
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He's had 3 appearances all season and didn't play in the league until December. He's not been given a chance, there's no hiding from that.
 
pocco said:
Because I've been watching Zaha in the u21s. It's pretty obvious he's not ready. Apparently he's seriously shy and overwhelmed by being here. Throwing a player like that into our current situation isn't fair. If he had the same attitude/personality/confidence as Januzaj then he'd probably have been given more of a chance.

I disagree regarding Valencia to a certain extent. He's not been up to his usual standards defensively, but a lot of what he does do right goes unnoticed I think.
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I've seen some of the videos of his performances and he's been decent enough. Nothing that's made me think he can't play ahead of our other players.

No point in commenting about training/attitude as we have no clue about any of that,
 
datura said:
Well there appears some bias on your behalf when you say 'neither of the above would have brought the same impact as Wilf did for Cardiff last week' so don't expect me to take you as being anywhere near objective. As I said, he seems to be a cause du jour, like Fabio was for a load of posters also.

What Moyes said perfectly explains the Zaha situation, and probably Fabio too. You just choose to ignore it to put your own spin on it to criticise the manager you clearly dislike. I can't stand agenda posters. Another for the ignore.
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You accuse me of spinning Moyes' quotes after having done exactly that one of my own? Indeed you seem to have exaggerated my initial reply to suit your preconceptions too.

Moyes implied that Zaha didn't come to his standards in training and i take him at his word on that, however bar Januzaj the established wingers have been surely just as mixed in their output on the pitch. Ideally you would strive to reach the right balance of cameo appearances and pushing for improvements in training, one as an incentive to the other.
 
akash02 said:
I've seen some of the videos of his performances and he's been decent enough. Nothing that's made me think he can't play ahead of our other players.

No point in commenting about training/attitude as we have no clue about any of that,
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We do actually. In the interview that bumped this thread today moyes came out and all but said that zaha's not been training well. Re-read his last sentence.

Obviously, he couldn't come out and say it directly but it's easy to read between the lines. He's not the first either. Even Ole made a reference to Zaha needing to appreciate that talent alone is not enough without hard work. His previous manager said something similar last week. There's been bunch of stories from football journalists all season long alluding to the same thing.
 
If Cardiff get hammered and Zaha fails to impress in the next game, just watch the thread change direction. :)
 
akash02 said:
Having trust is one thing, persisting with them despite them being poor for more than a year is not very smart. I am not suggesting Moyes should have come in and immediately started off with Zaha. But as the season unfolded and Valencia and Young became even worse it's staggering that he still did not get a chance.

We don't know what goes on in training, pointless speculating about that.
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more than a year is a stretch when moyes has not been in the job that long. And I don't know about Young getting worse, he's had some game changing moments in the past few weeks. Still has great ability.

And it may be staggering for you, but I'm not speculating about training, what im saying is you had seen him for 30 minutes total this season when he was at united, moyes has seen him for hundreds and hundreds of minutes, it's staggering that you think you know better than him about whether or not Zaha should have been getting time on the pitch
 
There seems to be no doubt that regardless of the talent Zaha could potentially have in the premier league (and come on, at the moment it is potential) his attitude in terms of commitment and being part of a team ethic needs some work. I think the loan period with Ole is a brilliant idea. If anyone can drill the ethic of being part of a team and the commitment that entails, especially at United, then it's Ole.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Fair enough if Moyes doesn't think Zaha is all that special but to only give him a few minutes is ludicrous.

Don't understand some of his squad management at all.
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I dont understand why people make things up. Where has Moyes ever said that he thought " Zaha wasnt all that special". Personally I prefer Zaha to both Young and Valencia. Maybe Ole's comment about Zaha gives us all a hint about why Zaha has had limited chances at Utd so far. Ole's comment gives me hope he will return from Cardiff with the improvements that will mean he will be a 1st team selection. being loaned to Cardiff means he will get game time and Moyes isnt giving him game time. Maybe Moyes is trying to help Zaha get to where he wants him?

‘Zaha came on and made the difference,’ said Solskjaer.

‘He has pace, power and technique. We just have to teach him defending.’
 
datura said:
The pre season opposition wasn't exactly Premiership standard though and Lingard was more impressive then Zaha.
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True, but I offer two counterpoints:

1. Two of our three experienced wingers, Young and Valencia, have looked dire most of the season; and our third experienced winger, Nani, just never got it together. In other words, Zaha's competition for limited spaces certainly created an opportunity for a chance.

2. Januzaj also looked very good in preseason, against substandard teams. Yet he got a shot and Zaha didn't. And I think we would all agree that Januzaj has been fantastic. Zaha might not have been fantastic, but he at least deserved a chance to prove himself one way or the other.
 
Gannicus said:
True, but I offer two counterpoints:

1. Two of our three experienced wingers, Young and Valencia, have looked dire most of the season; and our third experienced winger, Nani, just never got it together. In other words, Zaha's competition for limited spaces certainly created an opportunity for a chance.

2. Januzaj also looked very good in preseason, against substandard teams. Yet he got a shot and Zaha didn't. And I think we would all agree that Januzaj has been fantastic. Zaha might not have been fantastic, but he at least deserved a chance to prove himself one way or the other.
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Janu was lined up for a go towards the end of last season, that's when he impressed
 
Stack said:
I dont understand why people make things up. Where has Moyes ever said that he thought " Zaha wasnt all that special". Personally I prefer Zaha to both Young and Valencia. Maybe Ole's comment about Zaha gives us all a hint about why Zaha has had limited chances at Utd so far. Ole's comment gives me hope he will return from Cardiff with the improvements that will mean he will be a 1st team selection. being loaned to Cardiff means he will get game time and Moyes isnt giving him game time. Maybe Moyes is trying to help Zaha get to where he wants him?

‘Zaha came on and made the difference,’ said Solskjaer.

‘He has pace, power and technique. We just have to teach him defending.’
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The only one making things up is you. He didn't say Moyes didn't think he was special. He said "Fair enough if..." Pretty clear that he was about to give a hypothetical situation.
 
BarneyLFC said:
The only one making things up is you. He didn't say Moyes didn't think he was special. He said "Fair enough if..." Pretty clear that he was about to give a hypothetical situation.
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yeah but that if isnt anywhere near reality is it but then you wouldnt understand that given the amount of hypothetical situations you blather on about.
 
Stack said:
yeah but that if isnt anywhere near reality is it but then you wouldnt understand that given the amount of hypothetical situations you blather on about.
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How do you know it isn't? And when have I blathered on about a hypothetical situation?
 
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