Take Henry out of that Arsenal team and it would be like watching prime Pep Barca without Messi. That's how good he was.
Who is the better player: Mbappe or Henry?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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Prime Henry was better than current Mbappe but Mbappe has a higher ceiling if his career goes well.
Which in both cases leaves you with one of the best team in the world unless they have to play with 10 players.
Jesus you know what I mean
Just look at henry's stats back then
05/06 33g 10a
04/05 30g 15a
03-04 39g 15a
02-03 32g 28a
01-02 32g 9a
00-01 22g 11a
In all comps
He was the goalscorer and the provider.
There are, but if the question pertains to who is better, I don't think that translates.
The problem with Arsenal is that people actually overrate the invincible's team. Bergkamp was not that much of a regular. He had declined during that period, for large stretches, Wiltord and Reyes were actually starting over him.
Ljungberg was also nowhere near as good as people like to give credit too. Add that to not having a great defence in 06, Pires declining in 2006, Viera leaving and Fabregas still developing and it was quite clear that Henry carried that team. Henry was to Arsenal what Kane is to Spurs.
Exactly, on a team usually averaging 75-80 goals. In the 05/06 campaign, Arsenal scored 68 league goals.
What some fans from other leagues who didn't actually watch Henry much don't realize is there is a reason EPL fans say he is the greatest player the league has ever had. Van Nistelrooy scored more goals. There were other players who also won more, but at the end of the day, watching him play week in, week out, Ronaldo in 07/08 and Suarez in 13/14 are the only peaks comparable in Premier League history. It's why the Ballon D'or thing always upsets me. At the time, most people knew that he should have at least won one, it was generally accepted. But over time, due to Arsenal not being a big enough entity and his lack of Champions League success at Arsenal, despite it seeming impossible to do at the time, he's started to become underrated.
For me, out of all the players I've seen, he's the best to watch and probably more talented as any non - Messi/Ronaldo forward I've seen (I didn't get to watch mid to late 90's Ronaldo). I actually think, Henry going to Barcelona, despite the Champions League actually did a disservice to him. He had lost some of the pace and balance that made him so deadly at Arsenal. His technical level was still high, but the spanish audience were introduced to a lesser, but still good version of him. Good enough to believe this is what he always was, not good enough to wow them; in a pretty similar way to both Sheva and Ballack.
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Yes! The Caf doesn't disappoint! 65% for Henry
Here is my point, Arsenal were a balanced team that relied on their defensive strength and their best player in Henry. If they had one without the other they wouldn't have gone to the final. Is that fair?
I've not voted yet.
My vote is for sale to the highest bidder.
My vote is for sale to the highest bidder.
Not really.
That statement depriciates the amount of attacking burden Henry had. Arsenal in 06, were essentially what Messi has had to deal with Argentina.
Genuinely interested to know where that stat is coming from.
Unless they both have a legit 100m time in their prime (pretty sure they dont), that is just a made up statement.
Can't remember the commentator who said it but Mbappe is potentially the closest player in style and play to R9. Personally think Henry and Mbappe are tied at the moment, but I have no doubt Mbappe will surpass Henry
I fundamentally disagree with that and to be fair now that I think about it I was wrong when I isolated Arsenal, I have seen many posters do the same thing with United between 2006-2009. To me it's fundamentally wrong because a stingy defense changes the way the opposition has to play, they have to take more risks and allow more space for your attackers. The opposite is also true when you have an extremely potent attack the opposition tend to commit more bodies to defend and often find themselves toothless, it's something that Barcelona/Spain have experienced a lot during their best years.
Teams that are "carried" by a player generally do nothing, they go out against the first good team that they face. Inter with Ibrahimovic or Roma with Totti would be examples. And I wouldn't put 05-06 Arsenal in that category, it did happen in other years though.
How many people think what Mbappe has done so far is equivalent to everything Henry has done in his career from start to finish (including his underrated WC stint in MLS)?
Arsenal between 2003/4 and 2006/7 had a better record in Europe than PSG have had between 2018/19 and the present day.
Arsenal:
1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th in the Premier League
QF, R16, Final, R16 in the Champion's League
PSG:
1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st in Ligue 1
R16, Final, R16, R16 in the Champion's League
Arsenal's issue was, in part, precisely because the Premier League was strong. There weren't many dead rubber games and they didn't have the squad depth to be able to rest their key players without risking dropping points (and therefore the title).
Not sure what PSG's excuse is, how come a team that walks Ligue 1 almost every year without most of their players breaking a sweat isn't strong enough to perform consistently on the European stage?
Currently Henry was a better player than what Mbappe is but Mbappe can still improve and will very likely become a better player than Henry but just not yet.
Mbappe’ is still very young and needs to keep going like this for some time to equal or better Henrys career. But the talent is there to do it, i’m quite sure of it. But he will of course never be as inexplicably buttery smooth as peak Henry
PSG got to the semis in 2021 (you listed RO16 for some reason), which undermines your argument quite a bit.
I think that you missed a semi final for PSG.
What a wonder PL fans are.
PL team wins the CL : PL is the best league on earth, no other comes close!
PL teams don't win the CL : They didn't win because PL is the best league on earth, no other comes close so that's why the players are tired!
UCL back then was much stronger. You had multiple Italian, Spanish, English and German teams. Not to mention there were more games to be played because of the 2nd round group stages.
Personally I wouldn't be using a teams achievement or underachievement to judge an individual. What Arsenal, PSG or each generation of France do is irrelevant in the debate.
Oops yeah, mea culpa!
Nope, I personally don't care whether he wins a PL or La Liga ever, I don't see it as any higher achievement, just like a Bundesliga, because only the best team will be able to afford him and he'll make a mockery of the league with his stacked team where people won't be any more excited that he wins as it'll be expected, just as it is at PSG, only there he's bringing trophies to his actual hometown, and it matters way more from a legacy perspective for people in Paris. Are people really gonna be impressed when Haaland wins the PL? They did it for over half a decade without him in 4 of the last 5 seasons.
I also don't care about other people's opinions on it, because no matter what he does, people will find a way to criticize it. Messi gets criticized because he had Xavi/Iniesta, and played in a 2-horse league which he stayed in for most of his career, which I guess is better than one but every league is becoming a 1 or 2-horse league with Serie A possibly being the only league with some competition for the best. Even the GOAT will find people criticizing him, so anybody else will get their share as well, no matter whether it's logical or not. This is just entitled fan talk to try and discredit him because they think somehow their league is more important, it's not, no matter how much you'll try to convince me otherwise, I don't care about the Premier League any more than any other league. I think it's vastly more fun to have a hometown guy who grew up in the suburb trying to win his city its first CL, he's also won Ligue 1 with Monaco over PSG, that's a better achievement than anything he'll do outside of France. You can disagree, it's fine, but again...who cares?
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Henry. Mbappe is physically stronger and may end up with more goals, but I doubt he ever reaches Titi's technical ability
Nice strawman, but I'm neither here nor there about whether the Premier League was the best league or not at any point in time. I was just pointing out that your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Your argument was that the Invincibles' Champion League record demonstrates the Premier League wasn't good, because how could a team which failed so badly in Europe perform so well in England. My point was that there are obvious reasons for that (a lack of squad depth behind a great first XI, their prioritisation of the league in the face of the realities of stiff domestic competition). I'd also say they were very lucky that most of their key players avoided any significant time out injured, because if Henry, Pires or any of the defensive unit had missed significant gametime they probably wouldn't have won the league, never mind gone undefeated.
But mostly it's a case of "those in glass houses". If you're happy doing down the Premier League on the basis that Arsenal didn't do better in Europe, you can't complain if others apply the same logic to your league. The Invincibles were nowhere near as dominant in the Premier League as PSG have been in Ligue 1 over the last few years yet their record in European competition has been almost identical. PSG have a SF to Arsenal's QF (which was an error in my post), but they also have 3 Ligue 1 titles to the 1 Premier League that Arsenal side won.
For what it's worth, I think Mbappe will end his career having comfortably surpassed Henry.
PSG also made a 1/2 2 years ago with Pochettino beating Barcelona and Bayern with a fantastic mbappe
Champions league knockout stage :
- Henry : 11 goals in 32 games
- Mbappe : 7 goals in 12 games
Source : https://www.transfermarkt.co/most-g...ut-stage-since-2000/index/galerie/1348?page=1
World cup :
- Henry : 6 goals in 17 games
- Mbappe : 9 goals in 11 games
Henry was a great player and he helped a lot for a world cup, an euro for France and a champions league for Barca. But he never was the main guy in theses tournaments.
1998 world cup team of the tournament has 4 french players and Henry is not one of them.
It was the same for the euro 2000. 4 french players in the team of the tournament but not Henry
And on this world cup, Mbappe does it as the absolut star of the french national team being defended by at least 2 guys every times he touch the ball.
If Mbappe keeps going like that, it will look like the Rashford / Mbappe thread in a few years
- Henry : 11 goals in 32 games
- Mbappe : 7 goals in 12 games
Source : https://www.transfermarkt.co/most-g...ut-stage-since-2000/index/galerie/1348?page=1
World cup :
- Henry : 6 goals in 17 games
- Mbappe : 9 goals in 11 games
Henry was a great player and he helped a lot for a world cup, an euro for France and a champions league for Barca. But he never was the main guy in theses tournaments.
1998 world cup team of the tournament has 4 french players and Henry is not one of them.
It was the same for the euro 2000. 4 french players in the team of the tournament but not Henry
And on this world cup, Mbappe does it as the absolut star of the french national team being defended by at least 2 guys every times he touch the ball.
If Mbappe keeps going like that, it will look like the Rashford / Mbappe thread in a few years
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My comment was an obvious exageration because of the huge pro-PL bias in here (which is understandable). If a player was the best in the PL, he HAD to be the best in the world. At one point, the biggest games on the biggest stages matter, and it matters more than being very consistant. Henry failed to deliver pretty often in high pressure situations.
I'm not even advocating for Mbappé because I voted Henry but the semi god like figure some here are depicting when talking about him is exagerated. I've read that unlike Mbappé, Henry was able to unlock any game from anywhere on the pitch thanks to his supreme abilites. I've seen a lot of games in Europe or with France when he didn't. He was still an amazing player no doubt.
Just google it. Henry has clocked almost 40kmt. Mbappe 37.5
Henry and by quite a distance. Let’s not forget what Henry achieved before we compare a 23 year old to his entire career
Pretty hard to compare when you don't know how it was measured. We often hear "he was clocked at 38 according to such broadcaster" and then "according to FIFA it was 34". It doesn't really matter though, acceleration does and Mbappé's superior (he's smaller and a tad more explosive). Henry was more technical though.
M’bop it is a better manager than Henry.
The PL was indeed the strongest in the period you describe, but that coincided with Arsenal's worst team, they were lagging behind us and Chelsea and at some point even Arsenal. That is Henry's later years at Arsenal though, his first few years from the late '90s to early '00s, Arsenal did have a top PL team but the PL back then was indeed inferior. English teams record in that period in the CL is just embarrassing and most of all because of Arsenal. We had a team that was winning league titles and cups left and right making it look like a proper competition only for them to lose to pretty much any half decent side in the continent. That's why that team might be one of the greatest domestically but in Europe, their performances were no different than Dortmund if not worse. I don't think that was because the PL was weak per se, but that it was very niched, almost playing its own version of football. It is when the influx of foreign managers like Mourinho, Benitez and coaches like Queiroz, that PL teams learned to adapt to European football and started competing in the period you are talking about. Unfortunately for Arsenal, that's when they had harder competition than few years previous aggravated by the financial strain of building their new stadium.
I find that shocking. Euro 2000 was without debate Henry's best performance at a tournament for France, and he was incredible there. I know Zizou ended up getting most of the plaudits, and probably rightfully so, but Henry was devastating that tournament as well, even if it didn't always translate into the goals.
It is solely because the requirements to participate in the CL changed from their time. I read somewhere if CR7 played under the same requirements for qualification for the CL, he would have basically played in half the seasons he ended up playing in his career in the CL, I couldn't find the tweet but it was eye-opening as I couldn't remember when the transition to the new rules happened, but it definitely opened up the competition to more players than it used to when some of those stars were in their prime. This is what makes those comparisons between current stars and past ones unfair when we look at CL stats.
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Wow I had no idea his stats were that good. I’m nearing 30 so I only properly caught the tail end of his career.
Those 02-04 seasons are absolutely ridiculous
There are several sources on Henry being faster. Even videos comparing them. Do some research before neglecting the fact
Is this a discussion in France at all @JPRouve @Oly Francis @Sayros @kouroux (and any other France-based or French folk)?
Is this a case where, ironically, you have more English and non-French favouring one over the other because of domestic exploits?
I don't really know how deification works from the French perspective - are your players immortalised via stellar performances for Les Bleus or over CL or domestic football?
Has Mbappe's standing changed at all due to his World Cup thus far, or is that reserved for what he does from here on in?
Henry was our biggest tormentor in chief during the most visceral rivalry of pure football we've had in the PL era, playing really great football and scoring some of the best goals ever seen against us. In that regard, what he did is part and parcel of the perception of him on here, which is understandable. But during his career, from the French perspective, how is he considered in your player discussions? Do the great PL years get assimilated into his entire body of work or are they assessed in isolation?
In England, Henry is basically untouchable, often regarded as the best attacker or even best player ever to perform in the league - do you guys take any of that on board in general, broad discussions about Henry? I'm pretty sure this is equivocal to Platini from an Italian perspective, by the way. Rightly, he's most likely a god there forevermore for his exploits in Serie A, but I don't know what value that has to the French perspective itself or if, say, it is bundled in with his legendary NT performance level as somewhat of an afterthought.
Lastly, is it seen as a case that Mbappe must move to enhance his legacy? Also, any murmurings over what potentially winning two World Cups in a row would do for his legacy?
Would be interested in your takes. It's a curious discussion for me.
Is this a case where, ironically, you have more English and non-French favouring one over the other because of domestic exploits?
I don't really know how deification works from the French perspective - are your players immortalised via stellar performances for Les Bleus or over CL or domestic football?
Has Mbappe's standing changed at all due to his World Cup thus far, or is that reserved for what he does from here on in?
Henry was our biggest tormentor in chief during the most visceral rivalry of pure football we've had in the PL era, playing really great football and scoring some of the best goals ever seen against us. In that regard, what he did is part and parcel of the perception of him on here, which is understandable. But during his career, from the French perspective, how is he considered in your player discussions? Do the great PL years get assimilated into his entire body of work or are they assessed in isolation?
In England, Henry is basically untouchable, often regarded as the best attacker or even best player ever to perform in the league - do you guys take any of that on board in general, broad discussions about Henry? I'm pretty sure this is equivocal to Platini from an Italian perspective, by the way. Rightly, he's most likely a god there forevermore for his exploits in Serie A, but I don't know what value that has to the French perspective itself or if, say, it is bundled in with his legendary NT performance level as somewhat of an afterthought.
Lastly, is it seen as a case that Mbappe must move to enhance his legacy? Also, any murmurings over what potentially winning two World Cups in a row would do for his legacy?
Would be interested in your takes. It's a curious discussion for me.
Prime Henry was incredible and def better than current Mbappe.
But of course Mbappe has time on his side.
However, Mbappe has consistently performed for France (national team) in a way Henry never quite did. That too from a much younger age. He just has that big game mentality.
But of course Mbappe has time on his side.
However, Mbappe has consistently performed for France (national team) in a way Henry never quite did. That too from a much younger age. He just has that big game mentality.