In that case, all credit needs to go to Brendan Rodgers for what he has done. Secondly, as far as the England team is concerned, this particular stick has been used on Gerrard on numerous occasions.
What is Luis Suarez worth?
- Thread starter Donaldo
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In that case, all credit needs to go to Brendan Rodgers for what he has done. Secondly, as far as the England team is concerned, this particular stick has been used on Gerrard on numerous occasions.
We haven't looked awful against the top teams. We just went toe to toe with City and should have got a point and arguably won. We've looked awful 4 times this year: Chelsea, Arsenal, Hull and Southampton. Our quality of play at City was fantastic. That's the hardest ground to play at in the country.
Well, the general consensus on the caf is Johnson can't defend, Skrtel is a shit wrestler, Sakho is a Sakho Shit, Allen is awful, Henderson (up til a few games ago) was a waste, Gerrard is past it and Sterling was extremely limited.
It does. He's done a brilliant job. Especially on the coaching front.
With regards to Gerard, I don't blame him for the mess that is the English national side. There are some things I think he lacks, and some of those coincide with what England at times lack, but there's a lot wrong with the England team and it's not down to individuals.
Some of you lads don't get it, its about control of the match, the platform to perform that his team gives him. You can sit there and say he's done poorly in big games but actually watch the games to have a better understanding of the factors that came into play.
Vs city for example. Liverpool went toe to toe with them, matched them almost all the way in terms of the flow of the game. They didn't struggle under pressure and he had an excellent game. A few days later vs chelsea liverpool can't do anything. Stringing 5 yard passes together looks a complicated mission, and he couldn't do anything.
You can sit there and say they've done well this season but that doesn't tell the story of how they've done in the big games. Arsenal and chelsea both dominated them, and those were the two worst performances of the season, coincidence? Only if you can't use the grey matter between your ears. Its not just him failing in the big games, its his team failing to turn up on these occasions.
If pool improves the rest of their team to a further extent and actually have quality players playing quality football rather than making mediocre players out doing themselves then it can be used as a stick to beat him.
Vs city for example. Liverpool went toe to toe with them, matched them almost all the way in terms of the flow of the game. They didn't struggle under pressure and he had an excellent game. A few days later vs chelsea liverpool can't do anything. Stringing 5 yard passes together looks a complicated mission, and he couldn't do anything.
You can sit there and say they've done well this season but that doesn't tell the story of how they've done in the big games. Arsenal and chelsea both dominated them, and those were the two worst performances of the season, coincidence? Only if you can't use the grey matter between your ears. Its not just him failing in the big games, its his team failing to turn up on these occasions.
If pool improves the rest of their team to a further extent and actually have quality players playing quality football rather than making mediocre players out doing themselves then it can be used as a stick to beat him.
Arsenal was the worst performance of the year, but both Southampton and Hull were worse than Chelsea.
You make it seem as though Liverpool had no chances in these games. It's really not about controlling a match at all. You can have 20% possession and 0.1% creativity behind you, but you can make the most out of that single chance that arrives. That's what big game players do. Look at Drogba against Bayern Munich, Robben against Manchester United in 2010, Ronaldo against Barcelona in 2011, etc.
Against Arsenal, the selfishness of Suarez and Sturridge prevailed. Manchester City away was the best game Suarez has had in a big game this season. The best way to utilise him in these games is for him to move to the left, while Sterling runs centrally, so that he can pick out the through ball. And the way Mourinho dealt with Liverpool is the best way. Press them high up the field and get tight. That's the only game where Suarez has really struggled to do anything. At the moment, he's a flat track bully. Not because he doesn't perform well in these games, but because he doesn't perform in the same capacity as we usually see against the smaller teams.
I disagree with this notion that it's Liverpool's fault Suarez isn't getting the goals. It's a lazy excuse. He's not even playing in the Europa League/Champions League, whereas Ronaldo, who Suarez was bizarrely compared to, is on a different level. In our 1-2 win over Arsenal in 2012, Smalling and Evans did a great job on Van Persie. He had no clear-cut chances, yet on the counter, in a difficult position, he scored the equaliser against us. Van Persie scored from a corner against Arsenal earlier this season. No decent service provided, yet he still put in a world class performance. Rooney should have scored in the same fixture, but his overall contribution sums him up. Back in 2009, we were against Chelsea, a fixture we should have won, but look at the video below of Rooney's performance against them. No goals, no assists, but a world class performance, with a team containing an average Carrick at the time and Anderson.
Against Arsenal, the selfishness of Suarez and Sturridge prevailed. Manchester City away was the best game Suarez has had in a big game this season. The best way to utilise him in these games is for him to move to the left, while Sterling runs centrally, so that he can pick out the through ball. And the way Mourinho dealt with Liverpool is the best way. Press them high up the field and get tight. That's the only game where Suarez has really struggled to do anything. At the moment, he's a flat track bully. Not because he doesn't perform well in these games, but because he doesn't perform in the same capacity as we usually see against the smaller teams.
I disagree with this notion that it's Liverpool's fault Suarez isn't getting the goals. It's a lazy excuse. He's not even playing in the Europa League/Champions League, whereas Ronaldo, who Suarez was bizarrely compared to, is on a different level. In our 1-2 win over Arsenal in 2012, Smalling and Evans did a great job on Van Persie. He had no clear-cut chances, yet on the counter, in a difficult position, he scored the equaliser against us. Van Persie scored from a corner against Arsenal earlier this season. No decent service provided, yet he still put in a world class performance. Rooney should have scored in the same fixture, but his overall contribution sums him up. Back in 2009, we were against Chelsea, a fixture we should have won, but look at the video below of Rooney's performance against them. No goals, no assists, but a world class performance, with a team containing an average Carrick at the time and Anderson.
Are you seriously comparing the current Liverpool side to the side that Drogba, Robben and Ronaldo played in? You are so way off the mark. It is like comparing Wigan to Manchester United.
No, I'm not. You decided to take things out of context for whatever reason. Read the paragraph again.
Indeed. Also just the general point he makes there is way off - criticising Suarez for not taking the one or two chances that come his way, even if Liverpool struggle to make chances and have '20% possession'.. You can't judge strikers like that, particularly on a limited amount of data. Citing one time Drogba managed to score from one chance he had proves nothing at all, I mean are we really pretending that Suarez has never done the same? Sometimes you will finish that one chance and sometimes you won't, thats football.
The fact is that Suarez has been absolutely prolific this season and completely clinical. Not making the most of any chances is an outdated criticism of Suarez, his conversion rate has drastically improved.
He has, and one poster citing that he was brilliant against City, yet terrible against Chelsea just goes to show how ignorant they are as far as the matches were concerned. If I remember correctly, only Kompany was given the job of marking Suarez out of the game, which meant that others from the Liverpool team were able to do their thing if they could. He made Kompany (lest not forget if not the best defender in the Premier league but in Europe too) look like a buffoon, and not many players do that unless he has injured himself in the same match. Secondly, when Suarez played against Chelsea, he was man-marked by Terry, Ivanovic and Cahill so, the chances he had were next to zero.
Why did you not reply, PL? The first paragraph was in response to this mainly: "Some of you lads don't get it, its about control of the match..." But now you've gone off on a tangent with another member who has done the same (shock), so I don't think it matters now.
Because it was at best, laughable and not worthy of a reply. You were comparing Suarez's performance in an extremely average Liverpool, to those of a Drogba, Robben and Ronaldo's sides that were or are vastly superior. I don't have to reply to all your post, just the part that seemed laughable.
Controlling the match isn't about possession, its about the level to which a team is able to implicate their game plan in a game. Some teams don't even look to dominate the ball, and still have the overall control of what's happening(bayern vs barca, dortmund vs madrid etc). Milan used to let teams have the ball only for them to tear teams up after receiving the ball due to the abilities of their midfielders, which lead to releasing kaka in all sorts of spaces.
You mention Robben against us in '10, well, at the time in the game we had a red card and were under the cosh. As a matter of fact in all the time preceding that goal he had done absolutely nothing. The thing is what happens when a player doesn't get chances? Even a single one? Suarez is a player who creates most of what he gets, what if his team can't get the ball to him in good situations because they can't handle being pressed? What's he supposed to do? Transform into a maradona/pele hybrid and do it himself?
Did you see Ronaldo vs barca and ronaldo vs atl madrid this season? Notice how poor he can be when things aren't going his teams way? But he's so awesome. One of the greats and all that yet he couldn't make a reasonable dent on the opposition.
No one performs in big games as well as they do in small ones. When a team is dominant its easier to Fill you boots etc. When barca could do to big teams what they did to small ones messi tore everyone to shreds. When they couldn't after teams were able to implicate a game plan that worked vs them his level in these games dropped.
Now that's where the difference comes in. They have madrid and barca behind them. These occasions when their game plans collapse are few and far in between with pool its a dice toss of whether hendo, lucas, and allen will turn up. Surely you understand the effects that can have on the best players around.
Or because of the fact you clearly took my post out of its original context. You asked if I compared Suarez's team to Bayern Munich, Chelsea, and Manchester United, in which my response was a no, yet you continue to act puerile and say I compared them, when I clearly didn't. This is what I did say:
In that context, it was in reference to taking just one chance, every team I mentioned failed to create numerous chances in these games. Chelsea parked the proverbial bus, Bayern Munich were outclassed by us but took the corner really well, etc. It was my interpretation of what control meant, hence the once chance examples.
Yes, I agree, but they were again in vastly superior teams. If that had been Drogba, Robben or even Ronaldo against Chelsea, they wouldn't have got a sniff, just like Suarez. They would have triple marked them out of the game and that would be it, the best player, playmaker and scorer out of it.
Whether you replied or not is not the issue, it is the comparison that was silly, since there was no other comparison you could have made with Suarez and the others.
I think this is where the problem lies - you may have misread a part in my post. My post has absolutely nothing to do with his performance against Chelsea. I actually acknowledged the fact that Mourinho set his team well against Liverpool. My post was directed at general performances in big games and how they compared to other players, and why I think he should be scoring more goals in big games.
Good post.
My interpretation of controlling the match is controlling the game on and off the ball. The possession stat was just an example to show that you don't necessarily have to control the game greatly (absolute control) to pick up great chances.
That's why I used these three examples, in particular. None of them were doing well. Ronaldo would probably rank the highest, but that says more about the quality they produced in said fixtures. That's what Suarez should be aiming for when he has poor games and I'm not highlighting the Chelsea game - I've watched most of the big games Liverpool have featured in over the last few years. My opinion still stands. IMO, he should be scoring more goals while playing poorly in these big games, and I don't believe Liverpool are as bad as some make them out to be.
I think some are getting confused - he's going to improve his goal scoring record in the big games (he showed improvement last season), but this whole debate about him being a flat track bully is completely justifiable at this moment in time. I'm on a different end to the spectrum of those who think he's not going to improve. His goalscoring record being compared to Ronaldo's is nonsensical, too, and that says a lot about how far off some are. But we'll have to agree to disagree on some parts.
There was no particular problem Money. I picked the first part of the post that I thought was off the mark which another poster picked up on. I agreed with the rest so I couldn't really comment further. So, I picked up and replied to the part I disagreed with so, I don't think there was any misunderstanding on our part. No problem from me;
There still is a problem though, as you thought I was criticising Suarez for his performance against Chelsea, which I didn't do. I also didn't say that Ronaldo, Robben, and Drogba would do well against Chelsea. I specifically pin-pointed Mourinho's tactics as the reason for Suarez looking poor... This has nothing to do with said performance, it is a general look into his performances into the big games.
I don't know if this has been discussed but it's at the bottom of the rumourmill section in the Guardian site.
Now, I don't for a minute believe that Suarez would sign a contract that reportedly triples his buy out clause. Why would it be in his interests to do so for 6 months of extra wages?
Now, I don't for a minute believe that Suarez would sign a contract that reportedly triples his buy out clause. Why would it be in his interests to do so for 6 months of extra wages?
Not planning to B9. I didn't say he planned to, but surely you're not stupid enough to think that it's not something that's a possibility of happening should you not get top 4. It puts him in a very weak position from that PoV if the 120m figure is true should he be trying to figure for a move and I just don't see him doing that for a short term boost in wages.
I would imagine there are different clauses based on where we finish.
Supposedly triples? He didn't have one in the first place!
You know what I mean Barney. I'm not being a dick about it so stop looking to twist things. He was reported to have a 40m clause that allowed him to talk to clubs. Something of that nature was widely accepeted to be there.
Darrent Bent would have scored 30 for United. FACHT!
Kevin Phillips would have scored 35 for Arsenal. FACHT!
I reckon that Rush probably was told to leak it by the club and it makes sense to if it's something that high.
He does like scoring against relegation fodder at Anfield I'll give him that.
Great free kick.
TBF Suarez has been immense this season, I'd give him that. But he hasn't been tested enough to considered on Messi and Ronaldo's level.
He was brilliant against Man City because they gave him way too much space in midfield. Fernandinho and Toure for all their supposed reputations as defensive midfielders are actually shit at defending. Kompany had to deal with him with acres of space behind and I don't care if you are Baresi or Maldini, you are bound to struggle against a world class forward like Suarez who has a variety of weapons to hurt you.
Come Chelsea and organised defending and he was made to look like nothing.
He was brilliant against Man City because they gave him way too much space in midfield. Fernandinho and Toure for all their supposed reputations as defensive midfielders are actually shit at defending. Kompany had to deal with him with acres of space behind and I don't care if you are Baresi or Maldini, you are bound to struggle against a world class forward like Suarez who has a variety of weapons to hurt you.
Come Chelsea and organised defending and he was made to look like nothing.
Against Chelsea, there were at least three defenders at any one time like Ivanovic, Terry or Cahill. This, effectively took him out of the game since he is the one that brings others into play. He couldn't do that job because his teammates let him down by not helping out. However, when he played against City, he was able to hold the ball up, turn Kompany (a world class defender in his own right) on at least 4-5 different occasions, then he brought others into play and it was upto them to try and score. Sterling scored a goal that was wrongfully called offside, and he put Sterling through on a couple of occasions, as well as Coutinho and they fluffed it every single time. Again, you take the best player out of any team where the team is average at best, the team is actually going to struggle. This happened in last seasons Old Trafford tie against Real Madrid where we marked out the main man and they looked extremely average. Nani gets sent off and the gameplan goes out of the window and we were all over the place.
Going to smash every goalscoring record in the prem this year and is easily the best striker in the world atm.
Easily depends on how you label Ronaldo or Messi, doesn't it? He's in very good form, no doubt, and he's a class player. His second goal today is class - the first is atrocious defending.
Christ, it's as if Zlatan's form over the last two years has been dismissed.
I really dislike the twat, but Suarez > Zlatan on current form. What Zlatan is doing in the French league, however impressive, is not the same as what Suarez is doing currently in the PL.
Yeah, because let's not mention what Zlatan has done in the CL and internationals.
That he is - so it's a question of form and class. Atm, he's the most productive striker in the world. He's not the best player in the world. He is, however, definitely up there. I'm quite surprised at his finishing these days. His first season at Liverpool, his finishing was quite poor at times. Now he seems to have fine tuned his finishing and delivers one sweet goal after another. He's a class act, for sure. I still think he's the most disgusting great player I've watched. Keeping him shows that Liverpool isn't a great club, imo. Losing integrity is something Liverpool should not have done, even if they manage to qualify for the CL, which they may well do.