This season Suarez has 3 goals in 7 matches against the top 10 and 16 goals in 7 matches against the bottom 7.
What is Luis Suarez worth?
- Thread starter Donaldo
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16 in 7!
What a record
What a record
Suarez is not a flat track bully. Yesterday he was being fouled at every opportunity. Webb bottled that game like he did the WC Final. Even in games when he hasn't scored he has still been Liverpool's biggest threat. Since Sturridge's injury he has had to carry Liverpool's goal scoring burden. If he had better support I'm sure he'd have a big game record like Aguero. His stats in big games are more of a reflection of Liverpool's performance in those matches. If you want a Flat track bully I give you Dimitar Berbatov. He even won the golden boot by scoring multiple times against the likes of Blackburn and Wigan. He was completely useless in games like the semi against City and in Europe.
I agree. Berbatov scored 23 goals in 21 games. 8 goals in 6 against Blackburn, 5 goals in 4 against Fulham, 5 goals in 5 against Wigan, 4 goals in 3 against Birmingham, and 2 goals in 2 against Blackpool. Only one of those teams is still in the Premier league, the rest have been relegated. We may have been drooling over his play, but when he was asked to step up, he didn't. However, his statistics against the top sides reads 9 goals in 26 games. So, he was indeed a flat track bully. Secondly, we have to admit that Suarez plays in a side that is largely inferior to what Ronaldo, RVN, Rooney or even RVP plays in. In fact, imagine if Suarez actually played in a side with class players? Even Andy Cole, for the player that he was, scored 19 goals in 59 games against top opposition, and he was a goalpoacher.
So, you agree that Berbatov's record of 9 goals in 26 games supports your view that Berbatov was a flat track bully, but disagree with the notion that Suárez is a flat track bully despite having a near identical record? Makes sense.
I agree with you. Agüero is a fantastic player, a notch above Suarez for me. And he's younger, and getting better.
I agree that Aguero is a top top striker but it's much easier for him to score goals in the big games for his teammates create enough chances for him. Put Suarez in City's team and he would score for fun against any team.
Come on Berbatov (in his best scoring season for us) was dropped from the CL final sqaud for Michael Owen. Do you think that will ever happen to Suarez? As for his big game record I'm sure you'll find the 3rd goal in a 3-0 rout of Scolari's Chelsea and a hattrick against (Hodgson's flirting with relegation) Liverpool.
You are completely ignoring the fact that Berbatov was surrounded by some of the best players in the world. Why are you ignoring this? Yes, Suarez is a flat track bully, but he has had to do it on his own with players who are about two-levels below him. Man for man, Manchester United with Berbatov made the Liverpool of today look like Hull City such is the gulf of difference.
Van De Sar, Ronaldo, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic, Carrick, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney, Tevez, Nani to name but a few.
People state having world class players around you as being a straight forward fact that it should be easier for players to assert themselves in such cases. I really don't think it's that simple, and I don't think it's a cold hard fact that Suarez would do immensely better (or even as well) in one of the top teams. I think it's a bit of a lazy point to make, and that you'd have to look at each case specifically (what exactly was the role of the player, what freedom was he given, how was the team geared towards getting the best out of him, and so on).
Haven't seen anything in Saurez's game that suggests flat-track bully; it's quite clear that in the games against the top sides, it's his team-mates who have a massive level drop and thus fail to convert what he supplies or even provide him with anything but half-chances to score. It makes him a lot easier to mark or press when the supposed threats around him don't have to be given any kind of special attention. Practically by virtue, a top side will have multiple threats that would ideally require a double team to mark and/or contain. Liverpool do not.
In other words, you put Suarez in a top team, it is highly unlikely that he'd be found wanting or have any kind of level drop in output or performance. He's clearly a top player. How "top" remains to be seen, but to this point in time, he's doing all that can be asked of him in a team like Liverpool.
In other words, you put Suarez in a top team, it is highly unlikely that he'd be found wanting or have any kind of level drop in output or performance. He's clearly a top player. How "top" remains to be seen, but to this point in time, he's doing all that can be asked of him in a team like Liverpool.
Case in point, he played well against City. He put Sterling through when the goal was ruled offside when it shouldn't have been. He gave at least another 2 on the plate chances for Sterling or Coutinho and they still couldn't finish, which pretty much backs up your point. Suarez was always going to be man-marked by 2-3 players. Take him out of the game, and the others disappear. Which is why Liverpools midfield or wing options could never be compared to the options that Berbatov had when he played for us. Chelsea for instance, you take Hazard out of the game, and you still have Oscar, Torres or even Schurrle.
Doesn't matter how well he plays, if he doesn't score or assist he will be labelled a big game bottler by the experts here.
In a better team he would have reduced responsibilities and would concentrate more on goalscoring. In the current Liverpool team he has to initiate attacks from a deeper/wider position then finish of chances. Suarez would be a much better player if the team was built around him rather than being the one man team he currently is. IMO player get better when they are allowed to specialise on their qualities. Look at how Messi and Ronaldo became unstoppable when they were freed from the wide areas.
But do you think he would necessarily be the player that a team would be built around if he went to another club with other excellent players? At Chelsea, he probably would. Seems less likely at Real, or City for instance. I'm not actually disputing how well he'd do in a top team, just that it's not a straightforward fact that going to a team with better players would equate to him being much better. In my view, it's not so simple, and I think the current Liverpool setup suits him very well, in most games.
He most likely would have better stats, that doesn't mean he would be a better/more influential player. He could be, but it's far from certain. There have been quite a few players who needed to be a one man team to play at their best and there's nothing wrong with it, quite the opposite actually, it's brilliant to watch and keeps weaker teams at a higher level which leads to more competitive games.
Shearer scored something like sixteen goals against us.
The whole "he has shit teammates" argument is tiresome. Anyone who has watched Liverpool play this season will know that their football has been fantastic.
Also there's no perfect rule that a player will score more in a bigger team anyway. There are too many factors involved.
Jay rodrigez has 8 goals this season. 5 behind aguero. Would he out score aguero and get 18 if he played for city?
Also there's no perfect rule that a player will score more in a bigger team anyway. There are too many factors involved.
Jay rodrigez has 8 goals this season. 5 behind aguero. Would he out score aguero and get 18 if he played for city?
I thought it was painfully obvious yesterday that the guile and interplay to even work Chelsea's back line was absent due to Suarez not being able to be in two places at once. It made the job of the CB's easy, as it was often two of them devoting their full attention to him and only him as the rest of the team were not of the quality to buy Saurez any time or space.
It's something top players in top teams are offered in spades - the time and space to perform and optimize their talent and display their wares.
Liverpool clearly hit a wall in top of the table clashes where "suddenly" they don't look half as dynamic and all-conquering. Their football against lesser sides than themselves has been great, but as the quality of the opposition increases, so does their quality of overall play decrease.
There's no perfect rule, but it provides the optimal conditions for a player to shine and provides an equal platform from which all vying for these best player titles to be evaluated from.
And if what you were saying were true, we wouldn't see the massive dips in performance and output from the likes of Messi and Ronaldo when transferring the exact same players from club to NT, but we do. And that is opposed to the consistency of the brilliance Iniesta and Xavi bring with them when playing for equally brilliant NT side as their club one.
Not sure what sense your last sentence is supposed to make.
Players failing to perform when they move to a bigger/better team is a mental/confidence issue. I don't think Suarez is a player who would struggle with the pressure at Real or Bayern for example. He's a mentally tough player. He keeps coming back from these lenghty suspensions and transfer sagas and he keeps performing at a high level. I just don't see how he could flop if he left Anfield.
It doesn't always provide the optimal condition. David villa was a better player surrounded by worse players at Valencia than he was at Barcelona. There are loads of factors other than quality of team mates, such as the balance of the side, the role and importance of that particular player, his suitability to the side, his understanding with his team mates, how many chances they create for him etc
In Luis Suarez' case his team has been playing fantastically. There's been no case of "shit teammates" at all. Henderson might be Jordan fecking Henderson on paper, the guy people laugh at, but the other day he played three sublime passes that led to goals. Liverpool might be 7th place Liverpool (or wherever they finished) in some peoples eyes but they've played some lovely football this season, with Coutinho and Sturridge being great support for Suarez.
He wouldn't because he's a fantastic player but there's no guarantee he'd do as well or better there. The service to him has been very good.
Villa was great before the leg break. When he came back, he wasn't the same player and he'd also been marginalized to allow Messi to play in his favourite position.
I didn't mention "shit teammates" but it is clear as day that at the top level of this league, Liverpool as a team are found wanting and play a lesser brand of football than they do against sides with squads equal to or less than theirs.
Saurez has proven himself at a World Cup to be a robust, quality player (and also a cheating cnut) and he has gotten much better since then. Uruguay at the time of the 2010 WC, were a better side than Liverpool and Saurez was excellent for them. There is just nothing in his career to date to suggest he will do anything but improve when surrounded by players of his calibre.
As it stands, he has to have an asterisk next to lesser games against better sides because all things are not equal for him in comparisons to those already deemed the best of the best.
Wasn't singling you out. I've just heard that line of argument used a number of times.
My take on Suarez is that he's obviously a brilliant footballer and wouldn't fail in a better team, but I think this is probably the most purple patch he might ever see with everything falling into place perfectly. If he played moves to real I don't see him scoring 25 league goals in the same games he's played at Liverpool. I think he'd probably score a bit less than 19 IMO.
It's probably not fair to say that of all the big, big money moves of the last 18 months, i'd expect Suarez to live up to both the hype and the price tag the most immediately beings as he's older and just entering what should be his peak years compared to the likes of: Bale, Neymar & Goetze.
If he didn't come with all the baggage that he does and he was on the open market, he'd very probably be the hottest gettable player in the world off the back of his performances over the last year and a half.
In footballing terms, he's the first player in some time who I think is worthy of all the hype and praise being lauded upon him.
If he didn't come with all the baggage that he does and he was on the open market, he'd very probably be the hottest gettable player in the world off the back of his performances over the last year and a half.
In footballing terms, he's the first player in some time who I think is worthy of all the hype and praise being lauded upon him.
I don't actually think Suarez is a flat track bully but blaming his teammates for his lack of goals and assists in those games is completely off the mark.
Suarez's performances this year have been outstanding and on this form, with his new attitude, I would love to see him play for United. If he had a few more seasons like this one and if he cut out the racism/biting/diving for good, I would think of him as world class.
It's funny how a player like Suarez can play against chelsea without scoring and still be called world class player while Özil can be classified on his previous performance as a not big game player.
Again, the team that surrounds Ozil is class, and we shouldn't forget that either. Ramsey has been brilliant. Wilshere we cannot praise enough, then you have the strikers in front. Man for man, Arsenal are a better side all round. Again, it cannot be stated enough that the teammates that Suarez has are not world class. Henderson can probably play for Everton or Spurs, Coutinho is ok, but he tires somewhat in games. Sterling is fast, but he is very inconsistent and has shown at times that when he has something laid on a plate for him, he messes it up big time i.e. City v Liverpool. The point about big players being surrounded by mediocre teammates i.e. Argentina and Portugal where there are two great players in the team yet they seldom do well in the World Cup, and in Portugals case, they have had to go to a knockout game to get to Brazil. The way Ronaldo or Messi are with their national teams is exactly like Suarez is with Liverpool.
Oh what a load of bullshit. This is exactly what I'm talking about and I can't thank you enough for pointing out how biased all Suarez fanbois/Özil haters are.
Last season Arsenal had pretty much the same squad - did they ever come close to the top of the league??? Liverpool is a class act and have given Suarez all the back up he need to become what he is today. Even captain fantastic is holding back on his role. Özil on the other hand is one of several talented players in midfield, yet Wenger knows the whole side is dependent on his tricks and carisma as a leader.
See I disagree there.
The very reason he HAS to keep coming back from these suspensions is because he isnt mentally tough enough to keep his fecking head on his shoulders in the heat of a game.
A man that breaks concentration and professionalism enough to bite two separate players, punch his own teammate and racially abuse someone in the space of 4 years -when things were going relatively well for him at that- isnt mentally tough. He's mentally challenged.
There's no doubt Suarez was a league or two above every one else in Premier league this season though.
You think Suarez is basically Ronaldo and messi combined, don't you?
I think you've stressed on his "mediocre" teammates a thousand times in this thread already. Have you actually watched Liverpool this season? What's the first thing that sprung to your mind watching them this season? Mediocrity? Really?
He can be as good as messi and I still won't want that pile of wank playing for united. Luckily for us, he's nowhere near as good as messi and has no chance of ever coming close.
What on earth are you on about now? I was just stating that his scoring record for Liverpool this season is equivalent to Messi/Ronaldos or even Rooneys world cup displays. The only other outstanding performer for Liverpool has been Mignolet but that was at the start of the season. Secondly, most on here would prefer to have Cleverley instead of Henderson, most on here would prefer to have Welbeck over Sturridge...you work it out. So yes, the Liverpool side at the moment is worse than ours in all honesty.
Like Keane and Cantona he is a cnut whose red mist occassionally overshadows his football skills. Keane was a wonderful footballer but outside of O.T he is despised by many people for episodes like the one with Hangalaand. Everytime our midfield gets overrun or we lose threads are full of comments like "if only we had Keane in midfield" Cantona was considered unmanageable in France as a youngster and even served an 8 month suspension for assault yet he was voted the club's greatest ever player. Noone ever questioned their mental toughness. I'm not defending Suarez's actions I'm just giving examples great footballers with flawed characters.
I have worked it out. How good they are on paper isn't relevant to how much of a help or hinderance they've been for Suarez. It's how they've played this season that is. We have a far better squad, of that there's no doubt. But loverpool have played far better football than us this season. That is what actually matters when we judge the quality of what's been around him these days, not reputation or ability on paper.
And I completely disagree with the comparison with messi and Ronaldo's international careers. A lot of factors go into these things and it's way to simplistic to look at it that way. Sometimes there are complexities in playing for ones national team that one has to understand. I mean, using scholes' record for England to beat him with in comparison to pirlo,for example, would be hugely unfair. Sometimes the national side isn't balanced, sometimes the players' role in the team isn't perfect, sometimes the manager is shit (ala maradona).
I have always said that performances at the World Cup, in particular, are important to a players legacy because for a lot of them it's about adapting to a situation outside their comfort zone. However, context us important. For example, it would be silly of me to say use iniesta's excellent displays for Spain to try and prove his superiority to messi, because iniesta basically almost plays with the same team mates he trains with week in week out at club level. At the same time, Liverpool this season have been settled and really really well managed. Rodgers has gotten every single ounce out of that squad and got them to play football none of us thought they were capable of, so if you're comparing that side to Argentina or Portugal, we have to also see whether those sides have been managed as well in the period you're choosing for your comparison, or whether they are managed by maradona making some joke decisions.