Well Toure and Agger are excellent ball playing cbs, so if he is the best we got then one must assume he isn't too bad on the ball either.
What is Luis Suarez worth?
- Thread starter Donaldo
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Well Toure and Agger are excellent ball playing cbs, so if he is the best we got then one must assume he isn't too bad on the ball either.
Suarez was brilliant again today. He's quite clearly world class Liam. Very strange that that's even up for debate when you could now say he's the third best player in the world without looking silly. He has improved a worrying amount since he joined Liverpool.
True. He is good with the ball at his feet though.
Go to bed mate.
Suarez is in no way world class. Liam you are so bitter.
For me (and world class is such a subjective term), he'd need to perform against world class opposition regularly to be described as a world class footballer. For starters he doesn't even play in Europe, so while the likes of Rooney, van Persie, Aguero, Toure, Ramsey, Hazard and whoever else you want to name plays against good European opposition midweek and then potentially similar opposition at the weekend, Suarez has midweek off. Then comes Norwich, or Cardiff, or West Brom, or Sunderland. These aren't good teams. You're kidding yourself if you think they are.
Admittedly his goalscoring record against them is outstanding. No one comes close in the league (maybe in Europe they do, I haven't checked), but a better test of where you're at is your level against top sides.
Suarez played a top side in Arsenal a while ago and to my recollection, didn't do a great deal. He played top opposition today against Man City and played well. He played against a good side in United in the cup and did nothing (on return from his biting ban of course). He played against a good Everton side and played well (and scored!) That's all we have to go on this season. If you'd like to go back a bit further you can go to last season where, as MoneyMay pointed out, his record is little better than decent.
Think of van Persie last season. Scoring goals at Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool. That's what a world class striker does. Aguero's got that knack too. Suarez is rather parallel to Liverpool at the moment. Performing above their level and will soon be brought back down to their level as the fixtures even themselves out. We've had half a season which means half the games have been played and another half are still to come. After 38 games you're as level as you can be, then we'll see where Suarez is.
Admittedly his goalscoring record against them is outstanding. No one comes close in the league (maybe in Europe they do, I haven't checked), but a better test of where you're at is your level against top sides.
Suarez played a top side in Arsenal a while ago and to my recollection, didn't do a great deal. He played top opposition today against Man City and played well. He played against a good side in United in the cup and did nothing (on return from his biting ban of course). He played against a good Everton side and played well (and scored!) That's all we have to go on this season. If you'd like to go back a bit further you can go to last season where, as MoneyMay pointed out, his record is little better than decent.
Think of van Persie last season. Scoring goals at Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool. That's what a world class striker does. Aguero's got that knack too. Suarez is rather parallel to Liverpool at the moment. Performing above their level and will soon be brought back down to their level as the fixtures even themselves out. We've had half a season which means half the games have been played and another half are still to come. After 38 games you're as level as you can be, then we'll see where Suarez is.
Has Toure performed regularly in Europe against the best? Has Aguero? Those two and Suarez are three of the 10 best players in (what is probably) the best league in the world. If they aren't world class then that's a phrase you'd only utter about Ronaldo and Messi. If that's the case, who cares if you don't consider him world class. That doesn't take anything away from his talent.
Suarez played at full tempo against City today. Didn't look like he broke a sweat. Don't think I saw him mess up once. He was immense. He's been doing it all season. City or Villa, it doesn't matter. He did it at the end of last season as well but then he was also really cnuty.
What you're arguing is a really petty point. What people are talking about when they label him world class is his performance of late. That's really about it.
Suarez played at full tempo against City today. Didn't look like he broke a sweat. Don't think I saw him mess up once. He was immense. He's been doing it all season. City or Villa, it doesn't matter. He did it at the end of last season as well but then he was also really cnuty.
What you're arguing is a really petty point. What people are talking about when they label him world class is his performance of late. That's really about it.
Yeah, he must be playing against shite teams every week like Man City, Man United and Chelsea. It's already been shown that his record against the big teams is actually alright. You talk about Van Persie, but RVP's generally been in much better teams than Suarez. It's easier to score in the big games when your team has a better chance of winning those big games. Suarez has actually done fairly well in some too.
And besides, I hate when a player is dismissed because they score against the more average teams in the league, as if those goals somehow don't count. Beating the wee teams can often be as important as beating the big ones to win a title. Liverpool themselves proved that in 08/09- they'd have won the title if it hadn't been for goalless draws against the likes of Stoke and Fulham. If he'd scored, say, 10 in 13 and had been average against the big teams you could understand, but he's scored 19 in 13. It's a limited period, but that's sensational. If you're even equalling your goals to games tally over 10 games then you're generally doing great: Suarez is far bettering that. Against worse teams or not, he's been superb, and has been alright against the big teams.
Besides, you put Bale in the bracket above Suarez, but then cite European experience. Yeah, Bale has played well in Europe, but his entire reputation has generally been built on that game against Inter and a couple of other games here and there. On an international level, Suarez has played well for Uruguay and while I didn't see much of the tournament, people have said he was one of the best players at the last Copa America.
The fact is that if he played for us, then people would be comparing him to Ronaldo and Messi at the moment. That can't be disputed. Last year, people were comparing RVP to Ronaldo when RVP hadn't had as good a season as Suarez has had this year.
I'd probably say so. Toure won the Champions League with Barca not that long ago. Admittedly City haven't had a great time of it in Europe which you could put down to the club's inexperience.
I'm not arguing that. If you think people haven't been labelling him the best player in the world (which he just isn't; it's that simple) you're kidding yourself or oblivious.
Eh? Don't know what your point is there. He doesn't play against very good sides very often and when he does his record (as you said) is alright. It's nothing special.
I'm not dismissing Suarez; I'm merely trying to contextualise his goals tally and put some perspective to this 'BPITW' talk. The fact is, goals against Norwich aren't as important. You can typically rely on many of your players getting a goal to get the win but in the big games you can't. You look to your big players to get you goals and the reason Liverpool can't win the league is they can't perform consistently in the big games. All their points have come against cannon fodder this season with a few exceptions. United, which is typically three points for them anyway, Everton, where they could've won and lost, and Tottenham, in the game that saw AVB sacked.
I'd rather have my forward get me one goal against Norwich and a goal against City than three against Norwich and none against City.
Bale did build a reputation off that Inter game, and lived off it for too long in my opinion, but he was still outrageously good for the last four months of last season, and it earned him a world record transfer. He's now got the opportunity to do it for Madrid where he'll play bigger games more often.
It's partly why I had to take a step back from Messi and Ronaldo's goal tallies when everyone went on about the goals they'd scored, and you think "Well yeah, against Levante," but Messi in particular was scoring CL hat-tricks regularly. His performances against Leverkusen and Arsenal were two of the best individual performances I've ever seen.
Anyway, I'm revisiting old ground here. I'd rather leave this and come back in a few weeks, then again in March and see if he's still world class.
To be far he was immense against City, best player in the league at the moment.
So because Toure has medals he's proven? He played as a center back in the CL final, for the first time because Pep preferred Busquets in the DMC. Also why he was sold. He really had little to do with Barca beating us. Their team was just so good.
Suarez has a WC bronze medal. That's better than most players in the league.
I don't care about someone you overhear saying he's the best in the world. People say that stuff all the time without meaning it. It doesn't mean anything on the caf. We know it's not true. We can however also see that at the moment he's the best player in the league. That's despite Rooney playing really well and Suarez generally being hated here.
He's awesome. Some of his passing was very good but I can't remember him having a shot to a goal goal which was a strange but perhaps a testament to how well City defended.
Ronaldo managed to scored a total of 19 goals in 56 games against Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City and Liverpool, or if we are talking top four as in Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and City, then his record then was 45 games against top 4 opposition with only 13 goals. The goals per game he had for the first stat against the big 5 was 0.34, the goals per game against what we would call the traditional big four was at 0.29. These stats do state that he was a flat track bullly then, but not now though.
I don't think City defended particularly well. It looks like, given Suarez was marked by Kompany, this time he played role of provider and created space for Coutinho and Sterling to run into instead of himself going for goals. The disappointment of those 2 failing to convert some very good chances was obvious on his face.
He's got poor overall technique as showcased by the number of times his touch takes him into trouble (should've been punished two times vs City) and has a very poor habit of showing very clearly where he's going to pass the ball so it's easy to intercept. He must've played about three passes straight into Silva from under no real pressure.
Also he's cumbersome and slow at turning on the ball which takes him into trouble. I noticed this even vs a side like Cardiff. He put Mignolet under immense trouble there on one occassion with a hopeless pass.
Skrtel at least knows his limitations. Sakho really is a poor ball playing CB.
I think he arches himself when making a possible is weird too. It's his major weakness, he needs to work on them.
Don't agree at all, you'll be surprised how many times he manages to permeate the oppositions first line of defence with his passing. In fact in terms of passing out from the back i think he may be even better than Agger. He has a unusual technique and like you said he can be cumbersome, but pay attention to him in our next few games, he can really pass the ball.
I know he passes through the first line of pressure, and he's got no problems in terms of ambition.
However, when you're dispossessed/plays the ball straight into a player on the other team to put the opposition basically 1 on 1 with your own goalkeeper about twice a game, I don't think you can call yourself a good ball playing CB. You're a liability is what you are.
It happens, i don't think thats evidence enough to suggest he isn't a decent ball playing cb, apart from today his passing has been generally spot on, he has a very ungainly style though.
Don't agree. He's been poor at this on a number of occassions, not least Cardiff at home.
Should take this in the Sakho-thread, if such exists, though. This is for the biter.
He really isn't. Not even close.
What he does have is excellent decisionmaking on the ball. He generally picks forward passes and he's fairly quick in recycling the ball. And he's not scared of passing it, despite having at best ok technique. Yesterday aside, he makes up for it with his composure which makes his passing very consistent. But his technique is nothing special. Agger is worlds apart on the ball. Same with Toure, who is quite comfortable on the ball but doesn't touch Agger in that department either.
I'd agree the way he plays the ball out isn't exactly risk averse, but it hasn't cost us yet & risk is part and parcel of being courageous with the ball at the back; it's also often to our benefit. He actively wants to be involved in the play going forward - an excellent attribute to have for a centre half.
Would also say the fact he physically looks so awkward on the ball makes him seem worse than he is.
With the ball at his feet Agger's superior, but in terms of penetrating opposition lines with passes from the back I feel Sakho's been far better since he's come in. But I think that's what you're trying to say anyway.
Yeah you're right there. He was making runs out away from goal a lot of the time to make space for Sterling and Coutinho and sometimes Henderson to get in behind the City defence. I thought city did do well but had Suarez himself been on the end of one of the more clear cut chances in his current form I would think we could've scored more than the one.
I agree with this statement but I happen to think it's the other way around. Having seen players like Romario, Hagi, Baggio, Baresi, McGrath, Bergkamp and many many others play at a level that astounded me at one stage I wouild say that there are many brilliant footballers out there. What separates the likes of Messi and Ronaldo from them is their consistency. I'm not saying that Suarez is world class but I've been really impressed with his performances over the last few years. If you look at the Ajax player and compare him to now he has added pace and power to his game along with improving his touch and finishing. The one thing that he needed to do though was improve his team work and awareness which I think he has finally managed this season. Yesterdays game was a prime example of that. He sacrificed being the player on the end of all the moves to allow his team more chances at goal. Watch the game and you'll see that. I don't know what anyone means by BPITW at the moment because a tag like that is very subjective but you can surely recognise a very good footballer when you see one.
I left that in with you in mind.
The bpitw is bullshit really. He's never going to have a chance of being the best player in the world while messi is still playing. The latter is a class apart quite clearly.
What Suarez is, is one of the most in form players around, and generally a quality footballer. How good, remains to be seen. He's clearly better right now than say, Rooney, who doesn't come close to messi and Ronaldo. But can he be a top player for a 5-6 year spell at the highest level consistently scoring against big teams and performing in the knock out phase of the champions league? And playing a part in champion teams? Remains to be seen. The likes of Rooney and many others have done that. Obviously his level is higher than Rodney's but short term level is not everything when judging a player overall.
What Suarez is, is one of the most in form players around, and generally a quality footballer. How good, remains to be seen. He's clearly better right now than say, Rooney, who doesn't come close to messi and Ronaldo. But can he be a top player for a 5-6 year spell at the highest level consistently scoring against big teams and performing in the knock out phase of the champions league? And playing a part in champion teams? Remains to be seen. The likes of Rooney and many others have done that. Obviously his level is higher than Rodney's but short term level is not everything when judging a player overall.
I would agree with most of that. I think a lot of folk are rightly admiring him though as he has been playing some great stuff lately. I hope it continues!!
Comparing a winger to a striker is well off the mark. Also applies for a player who took part in the same league from age 18 to 23 versus the other arriving at age 24 and entering his prime. Put Ronaldo in the league today, in his prime, and he'd be pissing all over it. It's a ridiculous comparison ignoring many factors in order to make an unrealistic point.
I could be wrong, but I think his stats sharply increased in his last few seasons, did they not? It's hard to be too harsh on a player when they first come to the league as a kid. Latterly in his time with us he was very effective against the big sides, I'd have said.
You both seem to have misunderstood the last bit. Let me make just a little bit more clear for you so that you both understand. The part "but not now", implies that he isn't just scoring against the cannon fodder, but also against the top-tier teams too. As for MrMarcello, Luis Suarez is playing in a side that has largely inferior players to what Ronaldo has played with and is playing with at the moment. As far as Real Madrid concerned, man for man, they are a superior side.
Much as I enjoy being patronised, I haven't misunderstood anything. My point is a fairly simple one. You're using his goalscoring record against big clubs in his time at United to mark him out as a flat track bully (which I still wouldn't agree with). I'm saying that as he matured as a player, long before he arrived at Madrid, that was no longer the case, if indeed it ever was. Averaging things out over what I'd consider two reasonably distinct periods of time (from when he signed to WC 2006 and from WC 2006 to when he left) is too simplistic a tool to be able to say he was a flat track bully in his time with us.
This. Ronaldo was also playing as a true winger, when he first joined us, until around 2008. Or was it before that? Suarez has played as a left winger, second striker, and centre-forward in these big games. You could take away the three games in 10/11 for Suarez and it still wouldn't make much of a difference. It's not a fair comparison.
Yes, sorry about that. Very stressful day Brophs, having to pick up my children with 3 trains deleted and it is a near 350km round trip to Paris and only got back 30 minutes ago so, not best pleased with SNCF. I know it is simplistic, but it still doesn't relate to my point at the end which is bolded. The point I was making is that the criteria of a great player for me is the number of goals scored against the top 4-5 sides. This criteria shouldn't be used to only for one player just because he plays for a rival, it should be used for others too, whether it is Cole, Shearer, Rush, Henry, Ian Wright et al.
He is a cnut, he is a toerag of the highest order, he is odious, but he is the only player Liverpool have that makes things tick, because the rest are dross. For me, if there is a player that could get into the Real Madrid side, it has to be Suarez because the others are terrible. Anyway, I am going to sign off since it has been a very long day. Have a good one Brophs.
Happens to us all, fella. Don't give it a second thought.
As for the rest, I agree with it for the most part. My point was solely on the assessment of Ronaldo. Suarez is a fantastic player. He'd get in every single side in the world, regardless of how big a bell he is.
So now the inferior/superior players part comes into play instead of statistics. In other words, whatever you think is what prevails. I see. Not shocking you would attempt to reduce Ronaldo considering your lovefest of Messi.
Facts still stand that Ronaldo entered the PL as a raw teen and played as a winger, departing before his prime. Comparing him to Suarez is ludicrous. Unless you want to compare them at relative ages/primes/peaks. Even then it's moot considering they play in separate leagues. Are you going to mention Messi plays with superior players as well during your next Messifest in one of the other threads? Just curious.
Are we going to have to create some inane factor or quotient to adjust players statistics with inferior opposition to as if they (hypothetical) play for a superior side? That's impossible to speculate. I have no doubts in my mind the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Zlatan would be creating just like Suarez is with Liverpool if they switched positions - because they're that good (even Costa may considering the current form he's on; Neymar probably not due to his age and maturation). Suarez may or may not be creating at the others levels if switched. Obviously, it's all hypothetical and impossible to prove. And when these supposed inferior players begin to play consistently, when are they relabeled appropriately? Then does the factor/quotient change?
According to Tony Barrett, Suarez's new contract at Liverpool stipulates, that he will not move to another PL club, and if a European club tries to buy him, LFC want more than Bale's fee.
Now, I can understand the club's position, but why would he agree to this?
Now, I can understand the club's position, but why would he agree to this?
Giving something back to the club after how we've supported him?
I feel for you, they're rather rubbish on normal days so imagine during the festive periods....