What is Luis Suarez worth?

MoneyMay said:
We're talking about goals. His goal record in big games is average. You missed the point.

Keep your insults to yourself.
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I didn't insult you mate, but if you took offense to anything I said, none was meant. This was not directed at you in particular.

My point is that football is a team sport, and isolated statistics make no sense, you have to look at the larger picture. He had a great game today, and had it not been for the wastefulness upfront, Liverpool would have won. He set up 3 against us in '11, has played very well in a mediocre Liverpool against Chelsea, City, Arsenal in the past. He's also won the Copa America and was voted the player of the tournament (ahead of Messi, Aguero, Forlan etc, etc) yet some internet warriors still call him a flat track bully.

To further drive the point, Ronaldo used to be called the same by malicious/ignorant Liverpool, Asnl, Chelski, Siddy fans. Apparently his goal scoring record against the top 4 was not good enough until 2008, and therefore he was a flat track bully. Or Messi wasn't great, because until 2009 he'd never scored against an English team. Or until 2011, he'd never scored against Mourinho. Or in England. Or whatever. Point is, the baseball-ization of football/soccer with stats to jump into inane conclusions is kinda annoying to anyone who wants to have an adult conversation about the beautiful game.
 
Suedesi said:
I didn't insult you mate, but if you took offense to anything I said, none was meant. This was not directed at you in particular.

My point is that football is a team sport, and isolated statistics make no sense, you have to look at the larger picture. He had a great game today, and had it not been for the wastefulness upfront, Liverpool would have won. He set up 3 against us in '11, has played very well in a mediocre Liverpool against Chelsea, City, Arsenal in the past. He's also won the Copa America and was voted the player of the tournament (ahead of Messi, Aguero, Forlan etc, etc) yet some internet warriors still call him a flat track bully.

To further drive the point, Ronaldo used to be called the same by malicious/ignorant Liverpool, Asnl, Chelski, Siddy fans. Apparently his goal scoring record against the top 4 was not good enough until 2008, and therefore he was a flat track bully. Or Messi wasn't great, because until 2009 he'd never scored against an English team. Or until 2011, he'd never scored against Mourinho. Or in England. Or whatever. Point is, the baseball-ization of football/soccer with stats to jump into inane conclusions is kinda annoying to anyone who wants to have an adult conversation about the beautiful game.
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Quoted for great justice. Would read again.
 
Suarez has 12 goals and 12 assists in 29 games against the 'top 6' since signing for Liverpool - from twitter. I'd suggest that's quite respectable.
 
When someone starts to churn out performances of the highest quality the same shit gets trotted out, does he do it big games especially.
 
I listened on radio. He sounded like a big threat all game. He made space for others and Sterling going beyond him seemed to create Liverpools best chances. It sounded like it was between himself and Sterling for Liverpool's best player.
 
I hate Suarez, and I mean that with a passion. Yet, some of the football he plays is incredible and I'll be one of the first to admit that.

Suarez didn't score today but he was instrumental in almost every single chance Liverpool created today. If you look at the team Liverpool played today, it'd be an injustice to say Suarez doesn't lift every single player at that club.

Before this season i would have three big criticisms of Suarez. Firstly, i would say he was an arrogant show off with an attitude who thought about himself more than the team. Secondly, that he was a cheating diver who often made some bad decisions when he could do more. Finally, he wasn't brilliant in every single game. He would have some insane games but some poor games.

I have to be honest and say he's put those to bed. He's a fantastic team player. His attitude looks to had improved significantly. I'm yet to see him have a bad game all season. He scores. He assists. He is one of the most complete players I've seen in recent times and I don't think that is an exaggeration. He can dribble, finish, cross, pass, think fast, he has vision ...

He has made a big step up this season but the things that strike me the most is how actually unselfish he is, and how much his attitude seems to have improved.

As I said I hate him with a passion, so for me to say when I watch him play I genuinely admire how good he is is one of the biggest compliments I can pay to him.
 
Stick said:
I listened on radio. He sounded like a big threat all game. He made space for others and Sterling going beyond him seemed to create Liverpools best chances. It sounded like it was between himself and Sterling for Liverpool's best player.
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Sterling had a great game but it'd be an injustice to Suarez to put them in the same league. It's one of those games you had to watch to see. His work rate was impeccable. His attitude bar a few hissy fits at a couple of decisions was good too. He was instrumental in every chance. Sterling had a great great game don't get me wrong, but it was Suarez's passing, vision, work rate and quality and threat on the ball which opened up spaces which Sterling could use his pace to run into. I hate to say it but Suarez is just a brilliant, brilliant talent.
 
rpitroda said:
Sterling had a great game but it'd be an injustice to Suarez to put them in the same league. It's one of those games you had to watch to see. His work rate was impeccable. His attitude bar a few hissy fits at a couple of decisions was good too. He was instrumental in every chance. Sterling had a great great game don't get me wrong, but it was Suarez's passing, vision, work rate and quality and threat on the ball which opened up spaces which Sterling could use his pace to run into. I hate to say it but Suarez is just a brilliant, brilliant talent.
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Green on 5 live can be quite biased so I wasn't sure if he was being a bit here. It did sound like Suarez had a very good game. To be honest I think if Sterling was a better finisher we could have won a point but still City probably had another gear to get to if they were put up to it. I think City for the league now. Chelsea are far too strange and inconsistent. I think Arsenal will fall away a bit but stay top 4 and united will now go on a charge. I only hope Suarez can keep us in contention for a top 4 finish.
 
Kinky Melinky said:
Really enjoyed the game. Suarez is dynamite there can be no argument
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Indeed. As I said above, while his quality is obvious and he's obviously brilliant, it's not what I see as his biggest improvement. What has impressed me the most is that he acts like a leader now. He is almost Cantonaesque for them now. Look at the Liverpool team sheet and id be shocked if even one person sad their overall team quality is near what Man City fielded today. They all play above the level you'd expect and you have to attribute some of the drive and influence which as led to that to Suarez. He is a talisman for them right now.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Fair enough. One can't expect everything from him.

I would be interested in knowing the opinion of Liverpool fans on that stat above.
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If he performs the way he did today against most other teams he will get more goals and you can't score every game. Statistics are a funny thing. According to statistics Iceland have more nobel prizes per head than any other country......they have one nobel prize winner!
 
Stick said:
Green on 5 live can be quite biased so I wasn't sure if he was being a bit here. It did sound like Suarez had a very good game. To be honest I think if Sterling was a better finisher we could have won a point but still City probably had another gear to get to if they were put up to it. I think City for the league now. Chelsea are far too strange and inconsistent. I think Arsenal will fall away a bit but stay top 4 and united will now go on a charge. I only hope Suarez can keep us in contention for a top 4 finish.
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Indeed. I agree with those projections to be honest. Liverpool did well without Suarez at the start but now you have had him it's a different ball game if he falls off form or gets injured. If he keeps this form up I can't see you guys falling out of the top 4.

City look impenetrable in the league at least at home. I can't look past them now. Especially if they continue to pick up points away.
 
B20 said:
Don't think there'd be call for him being a flat track bully if his passes had set up an equalizer for us. He obviously delivered today, just more in the creative department than goalscoring. Doesn't mean he didn't show up for a big game.
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On this forum I love how the posters here are experts when it comes to judging a players mentality and whether he is a big game player or not.
 
Was very impressed with his appreciation of teammates when he received the ball in the area with his back to goal. For instance 9/10 times I'm sure Rooney would look to make a shot for himself there, whereas Suarez was happy enough to set up chances on the edge of the box for teammates
 
Suedesi said:
I didn't insult you mate, but if you took offense to anything I said, none was meant. This was not directed at you in particular.

My point is that football is a team sport, and isolated statistics make no sense, you have to look at the larger picture. He had a great game today, and had it not been for the wastefulness upfront, Liverpool would have won. He set up 3 against us in '11, has played very well in a mediocre Liverpool against Chelsea, City, Arsenal in the past. He's also won the Copa America and was voted the player of the tournament (ahead of Messi, Aguero, Forlan etc, etc) yet some internet warriors still call him a flat track bully.

To further drive the point, Ronaldo used to be called the same by malicious/ignorant Liverpool, Asnl, Chelski, Siddy fans. Apparently his goal scoring record against the top 4 was not good enough until 2008, and therefore he was a flat track bully. Or Messi wasn't great, because until 2009 he'd never scored against an English team. Or until 2011, he'd never scored against Mourinho. Or in England. Or whatever. Point is, the baseball-ization of football/soccer with stats to jump into inane conclusions is kinda annoying to anyone who wants to have an adult conversation about the beautiful game.
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Absolutely spot on.

I thought he was excellent again anyway, virtually everything good about Liverpool came through Suarez and if his team mates could finish he would have had two or three assists.
 
I wonder if Barney and that Rooney chap are thinking about reassessing Suarez's ability after today. Of course he actually played quite well, but yet again, he comes up against a good side and his 'two per game' goalscoring ability utterly deserts him.
 
Suedesi said:
I didn't insult you mate, but if you took offense to anything I said, none was meant. This was not directed at you in particular.

My point is that football is a team sport, and isolated statistics make no sense, you have to look at the larger picture. He had a great game today, and had it not been for the wastefulness upfront, Liverpool would have won. He set up 3 against us in '11, has played very well in a mediocre Liverpool against Chelsea, City, Arsenal in the past. He's also won the Copa America and was voted the player of the tournament (ahead of Messi, Aguero, Forlan etc, etc) yet some internet warriors still call him a flat track bully.

To further drive the point, Ronaldo used to be called the same by malicious/ignorant Liverpool, Asnl, Chelski, Siddy fans. Apparently his goal scoring record against the top 4 was not good enough until 2008, and therefore he was a flat track bully. Or Messi wasn't great, because until 2009 he'd never scored against an English team. Or until 2011, he'd never scored against Mourinho. Or in England. Or whatever. Point is, the baseball-ization of football/soccer with stats to jump into inane conclusions is kinda annoying to anyone who wants to have an adult conversation about the beautiful game.
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That's what I alluded to in my subsequent posts. There's nothing to suggest that Suarez is going to continue this cycle of struggling to score against big teams, but there's nothing wrong with saying that he's a flat track bully, especially in the context I said it in. Flat track bully doesn't mean (my definition, not sure about others) that he's not contributing to overall play positively if that's how you interpreted it, but it means that he's not scoring with ease as one would expect against better sides in Manchester City, Arsenal, etc. When you're scoring goals every week, you are expected to score in the big games.

Below are Suarez's stats against Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, and Chelsea. I can remember most of these performances, hence I've not included Tottenham and Everton. (I've added a small description next to the stats). My point is that he isn't productive enough against these teams. I've seen him have good/great games in some big games, but his productivity needs to improve, which is what will probably happen. The game against Manchester City goes against stats, as do some of the games I have listed below.

2010/2011

Liverpool 3-1 Manchester United: 0 goals; 2 assists. MOTM display.
Liverpool 3-0 Manchester City: 0 goals; 0 assists. Good performance (unfortunate not to score).
Liverpool 1-1 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Poor performance in what was an awful game.

That's 0 goals, 2 assists, in 3 games.

2011/2012

Arsenal 0-2 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Came on as a sub. Ensured Liverpool picked up 3 points.
Liverpool 1-1 Manchester United: 0 goals; 0 assists. Average performance. Everyone knows this.
Chelsea 1-2 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Nutmegged David Luiz and was close to scoring, but his passing was terrible. I can't remember much about this game, apart from that.
Liverpool 1-1 Manchester City: 0 goals; 0 assists. Linked up well and had a decent game overall.
Manchester United 2-1 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Average game. Evra controversy didn't help.
Liverpool 1-2 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Decent game, but his finishing was poor (missed two very good chances).
Liverpool 4-1 Chelsea: 0 goals; 1 assist. Don't know if this game should count. Anyway he had a good game. Contributed to the opening goal (own goal I think it was) and created a couple of chances. Linked up well with Carroll, too.

That's 2 goals, 1 assist, in 7 games.

2012/2013

Liverpool 2-2 Manchester City: 1 goal; 0 assists. Didn't watch this game, but I liked his free kick goal...
Liverpool 0-2 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Non-existent. Mertesacker and Vermaelen did a great job on him.
Liverpool 1-2 Manchester United: 0 goals; 0 assists. Average game. Ferdinand had him in his pocket. (Unfortunate not to win a penalty.)
Chelsea 1-1 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Manchester United 2-1 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Nothing special. We did an excellent job on him.
Arsenal 2-2 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Manchester City 2-2 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Liverpool 2-2 Chelsea: 1 goal; 0 assists. Excellent game. Should have scored more.

That's 4 goals; 0 assists, in 8 games.

Overall tally: 6 goals and 3 assists, in 17 games, prior to this season.
 
And none of you wanted to sign him in 2009 cause he was just another Dutch League reject according to some on here
 
No-one seems to realise that in big games, barely anyone scores more than once.

I'm not sure what Suarez was supposed to do today. Put Coutinho's chance on a plate, set up Sterling on a plate, etc. What can you do? The flick for the goal was majestic.
 
alastair said:
No-one seems to realise that in big games, barely anyone scores more than once.

I'm not sure what Suarez was supposed to do today. Put Coutinho's chance on a plate, set up Sterling on a plate, etc. What can you do? The flick for the goal was majestic.
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The flick for the goal was a sheer fluke. Tried to play in Coutinho.

He set up three 100 % chances though.
 
marjen said:
The flick for the goal was a sheer fluke. Tried to play in Coutinho.

He set up three 100 % chances though.
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Unless he bangs in goals in every single game without exception, there will be criticism, and it's unfounded.

Suarez carries them to some extent. He's killed teams single-handedly. Some people just want to find reasons to criticise his game when it's unreal.
 
alastair said:
Unless he bangs in goals in every single game without exception, there will be criticism, and it's unfounded.

Suarez carries them to some extent. He's killed teams single-handedly. Some people just want to find reasons to criticise his game when it's unreal.
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They lack some star quality in terms of ball playing defenders (Skrtel and Sakho are horrible on the ball) and midfielders (Henderson's been good, Allen's a grafter but produces little, Lucas is a dud but can kick people) so I agree he carries them.

They're well set up and they play wonderful counter attacking football but his vision and movement are essential to the way they're playing right now.

Without him they're back to grinding out results and hoping Sturridge nicks it for them.
 
ItsAmy4Ever147 said:
I wonder if Barney and that Rooney chap are thinking about reassessing Suarez's ability after today. Of course he actually played quite well, but yet again, he comes up against a good side and his 'two per game' goalscoring ability utterly deserts him.
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Why? He was the best liverpool player on the park today.
 
MoneyMay said:
That's what I alluded to in my subsequent posts. There's nothing to suggest that Suarez is going to continue this cycle of struggling to score against big teams, but there's nothing wrong with saying that he's a flat track bully, especially in the context I said it in. Flat track bully doesn't mean (my definition, not sure about others) that he's not contributing to overall play positively if that's how you interpreted it, but it means that he's not scoring with ease as one would expect against better sides in Manchester City, Arsenal, etc. When you're scoring goals every week, you are expected to score in the big games.

Below are Suarez's stats against Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, and Chelsea. I can remember most of these performances, hence I've not included Tottenham and Everton. (I've added a small description next to the stats). My point is that he isn't productive enough against these teams. I've seen him have good/great games in some big games, but his productivity needs to improve, which is what will probably happen. The game against Manchester City goes against stats, as do some of the games I have listed below.

2010/2011

Liverpool 3-1 Manchester United: 0 goals; 2 assists. MOTM display.
Liverpool 3-0 Manchester City: 0 goals; 0 assists. Good performance (unfortunate not to score).
Liverpool 1-1 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Poor performance in what was an awful game.

That's 0 goals, 2 assists, in 3 games.

2011/2012

Arsenal 0-2 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Came on as a sub. Ensured Liverpool picked up 3 points.
Liverpool 1-1 Manchester United: 0 goals; 0 assists. Average performance. Everyone knows this.
Chelsea 1-2 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Nutmegged David Luiz and was close to scoring, but his passing was terrible. I can't remember much about this game, apart from that.
Liverpool 1-1 Manchester City: 0 goals; 0 assists. Linked up well and had a decent game overall.
Manchester United 2-1 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Average game. Evra controversy didn't help.
Liverpool 1-2 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Decent game, but his finishing was poor (missed two very good chances).
Liverpool 4-1 Chelsea: 0 goals; 1 assist. Don't know if this game should count. Anyway he had a good game. Contributed to the opening goal (own goal I think it was) and created a couple of chances. Linked up well with Carroll, too.

That's 2 goals, 1 assist, in 7 games.

2012/2013

Liverpool 2-2 Manchester City: 1 goal; 0 assists. Didn't watch this game, but I liked his free kick goal...
Liverpool 0-2 Arsenal: 0 goals; 0 assists. Non-existent. Mertesacker and Vermaelen did a great job on him.
Liverpool 1-2 Manchester United: 0 goals; 0 assists. Average game. Ferdinand had him in his pocket. (Unfortunate not to win a penalty.)
Chelsea 1-1 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Manchester United 2-1 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Nothing special. We did an excellent job on him.
Arsenal 2-2 Liverpool: 1 goal; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Manchester City 2-2 Liverpool: 0 goals; 0 assists. Missed this game.
Liverpool 2-2 Chelsea: 1 goal; 0 assists. Excellent game. Should have scored more.

That's 4 goals; 0 assists, in 8 games.

Overall tally: 6 goals and 3 assists, in 17 games, prior to this season.
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The problem here is that you're judging Suarez on his form from 2010/2011 and 2011/2012 when it's quite clear that Suarez is a completely different player now to what he was back then. He showed glimpses, but he was a very good inconsistent player who you'd have struggled to put in the world's top 50 players. Now, he's probably the best striker in the world at the moment and arguably the best player (excluding Messi and Ronaldo).

It's only worth considering last season in general terms, and 4 goals in 8 games is respectable when all of those games were against sides considerably better than Liverpool in that season. In fact, that can also be said for the other seasons. 6 goals in 17 games is hardly awful if you're up against better teams in all of those games. I know you can't just judge a player on the present, but taking his 2010/2011 and 2011/2012 form into the equation is as frustrating for a Liverpool fan as the people who said last season that Van Persie would be constantly injured because that's the way he used to be, when he then went on and played in nearly every game of the league season. Of course, that's not the perfect example now because he is injured right now, but the general points still there.
 
He played well today. Scoring goals is not that only way to be a big game player, he was a handful for kompany and lescott and like a few have stated he would have had a couple of assists if not for some poor finishing. For me Suarez is all about that dual threat of goals and creativity in equal measure, I don't think he is a great goal scorer I think he is a great footballer scoring goals of that makes sense. City could not get near him in the first half
His second half was subdued.
 
Paolo Di Canio said:
And none of you wanted to sign him in 2009 cause he was just another Dutch League reject according to some on here
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You're going to have to come up with evidence that people suggested he was a dutch league reject, because that sounds like something you just made up. He clearly wasnt a reject, he was one of many great goalscorers in a weak league. Unlike Huntelaar, Alves, Kuyt, Kezman, etc he's actually done brilliantly somewhere else.

One out of a vast many
 
Cheesy said:
The problem here is that you're judging Suarez on his form from 2010/2011 and 2011/2012 when it's quite clear that Suarez is a completely different player now to what he was back then. He showed glimpses, but he was a very good inconsistent player who you'd have struggled to put in the world's top 50 players. Now, he's probably the best striker in the world at the moment and arguably the best player (excluding Messi and Ronaldo).

It's only worth considering last season in general terms, and 4 goals in 8 games is respectable when all of those games were against sides considerably better than Liverpool in that season. In fact, that can also be said for the other seasons. 6 goals in 17 games is hardly awful if you're up against better teams in all of those games. I know you can't just judge a player on the present, but taking his 2010/2011 and 2011/2012 form into the equation is as frustrating for a Liverpool fan as the people who said last season that Van Persie would be constantly injured because that's the way he used to be, when he then went on and played in nearly every game of the league season. Of course, that's not the perfect example now because he is injured right now, but the general points still there.
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I'm not doing that at all. I was judging Suarez's goal record against us, City, Arsenal, and Chelsea in 10/11, 11/12, and 12/13. It has nothing to do with me judging his ability or skill set, hence I don't understand including the Messi, Ronaldo comparison. I think everyone knows he's one of the best, but I isolated one of his main flaws, and did also say that he's going to improve, in the same way Robben did, in the same way Ronaldo did. If I'm wrong, then maybe I rate him too highly. You're right on last season. I think 4 goals in 8 games is decent, but he can still improve on his overall tally.
 
Stick said:
Why? He was the best liverpool player on the park today.
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Well it might not have been their views (it might have been) that he's the best player in the world right now. Even if they didn't there are plenty of people (outside of this forum admittedly) who maintain that he is. He'll just keep disproving it the more big games he plays in. If Liverpool do get CL football next season he'll probably be exposed as a good player. No slight, but this nauseating level of praise he's receiving will come to an end.
 
Concerning claims Suarez carries us - I believe that's unfair. He may be the fulcrum of our side, but as an overall team we've vastly improved from the shite we were a couple of seasons ago. We provide an excellent platform for Suarez to strut his stuff, and our record without him is pretty decent too.

marjen said:
Skrtel and Sakho are horrible on the ball
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Dunno why people think this. Though he occasionally gets into a muddle (and did today a couple of times) he's the best ball playing centre half at Liverpool.

ItsAmy4Ever147 said:
Well it might not have been their views (it might have been) that he's the best player in the world right now. Even if they didn't there are plenty of people (outside of this forum admittedly) who maintain that he is. He'll just keep disproving it the more big games he plays in. If Liverpool do get CL football next season he'll probably be exposed as a good player. No slight, but this nauseating level of praise he's receiving will come to an end.
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So because he's not the best player in the world he's just a 'good' player?
 
ShadesOfTomato said:
Fine line between Messi and Adam Lallana then..
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You've got this wrong. I'm not saying there's no space in between the best in the world and good. I'm saying the opposite; there's lots of rooms in between it. It's filled with players like Messi, Ribery, Iniesta, Bale etc. Suarez (in time) will be correctly identified as a good footballer. Perhaps he's be a very good footballer, but he's in no way a world class footballer. Never has been.
 
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