Westminster Politics

The new MP in Yorkshire being born in 1998 really took me back. A Labour MP who wasn't born when the last Labour government was elected.

We've had a PM about 200 years ago who was 24 which is impressive history still.
 
The thing with ULEZ is that 90% of cars are compliant. The opposition to it is very loud and I will admit the timing of it being rolled out over the period of the cost of living crisis at its peak wasn't ideal. That helped fuel the narrative that it was a tax on the people already struggling. But do you kick the can down the road over making the air cleaner and more breathable?

I think so. The #1 priority is getting the Tories out. And a majority of people hate disruptive climate action like Just Stop Oil, which still tarnishes Labour's brand among some potential swing Tory voters, despite Starmer's principled opposition to protests. Add to that the leftie Labour policy with emissions from the London mayor...

Si, it might be time for Starmer to draw a clear line against the lefties with a new oil drilling policy. Admittedly, this is not a popular stance in the population, but if you are opposed to oil, your vote still has to go to either the Tories or Labour (ya, I think you understand that they have no alternative :)!)...And winning over the pro-oil Tory voters would be good, to have a broader base and stronger mandate for a Labour government than ever before.

As for climate change, once Labour has been in power for a bit, that can be dealt with. Can't deal with it using protest slogans, while in the opposition!
 
This is the same old bullshit that Starmer has to deal with. It is right to say yhat ULEZ expansion had an impact on this seat. Starmer hasn't said it should be scrapped, he has asked Khan to reflect on the outcome and the reason. This is alway a sensible thing to do when you get a direct response from the populous, but the press and the ABL brigade are calling it a U-Turn. This is what Labour is up against.

Would be harder to frame it that way to be fair if he didn't so regularly u turn.
 
Regardless of whether they consider the results a success or failure, surely the logical strategy is to say that you came within touching distance of turning a constituency that has been Tory for 50+ years over to Labour. Not just any constituency, but the one the Prime Minister represented less than a year ago. Whilst at the same time overturing a 20k majority to take another Tory seat. Stick to that message and and push the idea that Tory strongholds will fall in the GE. You have them on the backfoot.

Instead, they've ended up in a debate about ULEZ which no one outside of London cares about. Tories will spin this in a few months and argue Labour are London centric metropolitan elites distracted by London issues. And just enabling that debate has already lead to it overspilling into wider carbon politics with Tories coming out of the woodwork to push back against net zero targets. It's a fecking shambles.
 


Left wing commie rubbish!


Labour will always have to contend with being labelled The Looney Left.
But for millions of people in this country, they are being affected by the Looney Right.
So what examples are there of the country having being made significantly worse off and the country being trashed by the left?
 
Regardless of whether they consider the results a success or failure, surely the logical strategy is to say that you came within touching distance of turning a constituency that has been Tory for 50+ years over to Labour. Not just any constituency, but the one the Prime Minister represented less than a year ago. Whilst at the same time overturing a 20k majority to take another Tory seat. Stick to that message and and push the idea that Tory strongholds will fall in the GE. You have them on the backfoot.

Instead, they've ended up in a debate about ULEZ which no one outside of London cares about. Tories will spin this in a few months and argue Labour are London centric metropolitan elites distracted by London issues. And just enabling that debate has already lead to it overspilling into wider carbon politics with Tories coming out of the woodwork to push back against net zero targets. It's a fecking shambles.
Electable.

Nah, a nodding dog would be better.
 
The fact that Boris Johnson clearly wanted the Tories to lose in Uxbridge, so that he could go around saying that only he would have held the seat, and will be seething that it didn’t happen, is at least one small silver-lining there.

Thankfully the Tories are still doomed though. Now how long they face in opposition depends on how competent Starmer and Labour are.
 
Labour will always have to contend with being labelled The Looney Left.

Sorry my friend I don't believe this is true, its only when Labour elects a nominee from the 'looney left' brigade as leader of the Party, like Michael Foot or Jeremy Corbyn that the Tories 'reel-in' their biggest majorities in GE.
 
Sorry my friend I don't believe this is true, its only when Labour elects a nominee from the 'looney left' brigade as leader of the Party, like Michael Foot or Jeremy Corbyn that the Tories 'reel-in' their biggest majorities in GE.

Yes of course I understand that.
What I was trying (badly) to say was that there is never any mention of the Looney Right. Any yet look at the damage that Liz Truss and KK did in a matter of days to the UK.
 
Sorry my friend I don't believe this is true, its only when Labour elects a nominee from the 'looney left' brigade as leader of the Party, like Michael Foot or Jeremy Corbyn that the Tories 'reel-in' their biggest majorities in GE.

 
Starmer needs to distance himself a bit more from the far left in order to get people like her on board, I hope he realises that.
Starker could copy and past Tory manifesto and they would still accuse him of being a communist.
 


This is somone who was always going to vote Conservative but is making up lies, either to herself or on this call-in, to justify it.

I struggle to believe that she would genuinely vote Green in a PR system (having said that, I do know someone who's voted for all 4 of Labour, Lib Dem, Conservative and Green in the past 4 elections, which I find incredible).
 
I do know someone who's voted for all 4 of Labour, Lib Dem, Conservative and Green in the past 4 elections, which I find incredible).
I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Green in different elections, but have never voted Tory, so not quite the full house!
 
This is somone who was always going to vote Conservative but is making up lies, either to herself or on this call-in, to justify it.

I struggle to believe that she would genuinely vote Green in a PR system (having said that, I do know someone who's voted for all 4 of Labour, Lib Dem, Conservative and Green in the past 4 elections, which I find incredible).
I am a Labour member. I can understand why people voted Conservative/Lib Dem in 2010 and why they might have voted Conservative after the coalition. I cannot fathom why anyone would vote for Bozo's Tory party.
 
so Gove announces new flowery urban regeneration plan, bringing up ideas from the Medicis and using manhattan and gaudis barcelona as examples (we all know its a charter to create cheap slum housing by loosening the rules around minimum sizing / noise etc). And yet one of their own MPs tells him to feck off with the flagship Cambridge plan.

There are utterly inept. Im no fan of starmer, but if this was his labour party, it would be all over the daily mail how riven they are.
 
so Gove announces new flowery urban regeneration plan, bringing up ideas from the Medicis and using manhattan and gaudis barcelona as examples (we all know its a charter to create cheap slum housing by loosening the rules around minimum sizing / noise etc). And yet one of their own MPs tells him to feck off with the flagship Cambridge plan.

There are utterly inept. Im no fan of starmer, but if this was his labour party, it would be all over the daily mail how riven they are.

Inept is bang on.
Typical Michael Gove smoke and mirrors.
And of course nothing new at all.
Has he not been to any city in the UK.
Any spare piece of land is quickly snapped up by developers and converted into flats.
 
Yes of course I understand that.
What I was trying (badly) to say was that there is never any mention of the Looney Right. Any yet look at the damage that Liz Truss and KK did in a matter of days to the UK.

Yes the 'looney right' were always there, but kept under strict Tory Party control so they never really existed in the wider public perception until up they popped in the shape of Liz truss in power, but not of course by election, but by 'sleight of hand,' so to speak. However Lizz has now irrevocably put them on the political map for real and I expect we shall hear more about the 'looney right' from now on......... if only from the Guardian and the Independent.

The 'looney right cat is out of the Tory bag' and the devastation it caused will endure, but for how long will depend on the margin of victory Starmer can 'rack-up' at the next GE.
 
Yes the 'looney right' were always there, but kept under strict Tory Party control so they never really existed in the wider public perception until up they popped in the shape of Liz truss in power, but not of course by election, but by 'sleight of hand,' so to speak. However Lizz has now irrevocably put them on the political map for real and I expect we shall hear more about the 'looney right' from now on......... if only from the Guardian and the Independent.

The 'looney right cat is out of the Tory bag' and the devastation it caused will endure, but for how long will depend on the margin of victory Starmer can 'rack-up' at the next GE.

Yes indeed. And unfortunately I have to admit that it is people of our generation who are the most bigoted against the loony left. Assuming that they actually existed.
And so hopefully it will be the younger generation who will realise that it is this Tory party who has actually wreaked havoc with the British economy and pretty much everything else. And brought about the cost of living crisis which is affecting us all.
 
Yes indeed. And unfortunately I have to admit that it is people of our generation who are the most bigoted against the loony left. Assuming that they actually existed.
And so hopefully it will be the younger generation who will realise that it is this Tory party who has actually wreaked havoc with the British economy and pretty much everything else. And brought about the cost of living crisis which is affecting us all.

I like to believe that too, but I'm to much of an old cynic.

In my view the Tories have got away with it because of Labour's parliamentary showing, which has, for the most part been woeful over most of my lifetime. I'm cynical because I grew up in and lived for many years it what is now referred to as a' red wall' constituency and for most of that period it was dire indeed, no hope, no aspiration forthcoming even in rock hard labour constituencies, where Labour ruled the roost for generations but were unable to stop or even get a share in what was happening elsewhere in the country... even when a Labour government was in power!

I do agree a certain element of 'bigotry' did enter the the arguments, and has been witnessed ever since, but to my mind the Labour party actually reinforced this with its 'international socialist' stance, concentrating on matters of importance around the world, but not necessarily high in the pecking order of those who voted for them at home. Many Labour politicians continually duped or rode roughshod over their 'natural' supporters and this is where a lot of what is now referred to as the 'loony left' emerged from. In my experience of the looney left' most of it was good intentioned, but incredibly naive and didn't stand a chance of being elected, except in areas where the 'international socialist play-book' was already the credo to follow.

I resigned from the Labour Party when I realised its dedication was such that it would forever be in 'permanent opposition', where it could wear its international socialist credentials but never have to back them up. It effectively invited the Tories to become the 'natural party of Government' and rule as it willed, for its own ends and its own backers. The only time Labour has a real chance is when the Tories eventually drive the 'good ship UK' onto the rocks and Labour, by default, gets a chance, but only if it wins a big enough working majority in the House of Commons, will it be able to do anything but merely survive

Therefore Starmer now has to steer with precision and purpose towards the next GE. At one time Labour could count on a 'shed full' of Labour MP's coming down from Scotland, but now, even with the SNP appearing to be in disarray, the smell of independence now permeates the air North of the border, its not going to go away either. To get a large enough majority not just to survive but to bring in new Acts which like the Education Act and the NHS Act will in future generations positively affect the lives of millions or ordinary men and women, Starmer has to win a lot more South of the border as well as pick up some Labour MPs again in Scotland... but that will be at a price!

I would hope the younger generation would see through the mists of time, but experience tells me they wont, they will continue to beat their chests and argue for 'what is right' , shout down anybody who they feel is selling out, march and demand everything under the sun, but then grow old like me watching the return of Tory 'self first, self last and if anythings left over self again' governments... if only Starmer could pull it off, but he is as usual coming under fire from among others, the 'international socialist' wings of his own party, even before the race starts!

But you never know the 'looney right's unmasking might just even things up.
 
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Yes indeed. And unfortunately I have to admit that it is people of our generation who are the most bigoted against the loony left. Assuming that they actually existed.
And so hopefully it will be the younger generation who will realise that it is this Tory party who has actually wreaked havoc with the British economy and pretty much everything else. And brought about the cost of living crisis which is affecting us all.

There is clearly a generational divide when it comes to politics these days outside of the traditional social value changes which every generation goes through. Economic and long term stability issues specifically. I don't think the Tory party will exist in 10/20 years time without them rigging elections to maintain power. They've alienated a generation to the point were there is visceral hatred of them. There was a lot hate for Thatcher, but loads of people gained property or rode a service sector boom off the back of her policies so they didn't kick up a fuss and allowed her dogma to shape our society. No such bribes are available to working people these days though so its a different playing field.

As someone who experienced the rise of Thatcher and the failure of Foot, how would you compare Corbyn's polices to what was on offer in the 80s? Was the 2017 Labour manifesto specifically going too far?

To me that seemed completely reasonable and achievable rather than some Looney Left dream. I'm gutted that Starmer lied when he said that manifesto would form the basis of his policy. I voted for Nandy in the leadership election, but I had faith that Starmer would at least stand up to his stated principles once he won. That faith was misplaced it seems.

@Maticmaker - Same question. Do you think Labour's manifesto under Corbyn went too far? As a former Labour man, what would bring you back into the fold?
 
I like to believe that too, but I'm to much of an old cynic.

In my view the Tories have got away with it because of Labour's parliamentary showing, which has, for the most part been woeful over most of my lifetime. I'm cynical because I grew up in and lived for many years it what is now referred to as a' red wall' constituency and for most of that period it was dire indeed, no hope, no aspiration forthcoming even in rock hard labour constituencies, where Labour ruled the roost for generations but were unable to stop or even get a share in what was happening elsewhere in the country... even when a Labour government was in power!

I do agree a certain element of 'bigotry' did enter the the arguments, and has been witnessed ever since, but to my mind the Labour party actually reinforced this with its 'international socialist' stance, concentrating on matters of importance around the world, but not necessarily high in the pecking order of those who voted for them at home. Many Labour politicians continually duped or rode roughshod over their 'natural' supporters and this is where a lot of what is now referred to as the 'loony left' emerged from. In my experience of the looney left' most of it was good intentioned, but incredibly naive and didn't stand a chance of being elected, except in areas where the 'international socialist play-book' was already the credo to follow.

I resigned from the Labour Party when I realised its dedication was such that it would forever be in 'permanent opposition', where it could wear its international socialist credentials but never have to back them up. It effectively invited the Tories to become the 'natural party of Government' and rule as it willed, for its own ends and its own backers. The only time Labour has a real chance is when the Tories eventually drive the 'good ship UK' onto the rocks and Labour, by default, gets a chance, but only if it wins a big enough working majority in the House of Commons, will it be able to do anything but merely survive

Therefore Starmer now has to steer with precision and purpose towards the next GE. At one time Labour could count on a 'shed full' of Labour MP's coming down from Scotland, but now, even with the SNP appearing to be in disarray, the smell of independence now permeates the air North of the border, its not going to go away either. To get a large enough majority not just to survive but to bring in new Acts which like the Education Act and the NHS Act will in future generations positively affect the lives of millions or ordinary men and women, Starmer has to win a lot more South of the border as well as pick up some Labour MPs again in Scotland... but that will be at a price!

I would hope the younger generation would see through the mists of time, but experience tells me they wont, they will continue to beat their chests and argue for 'what is right' , shout down anybody who they feel is selling out, march and demand everything under the sun, but then grow old like me watching the return of Tory 'self first, self last and if anythings left over self again' governments... if only Starmer could pull it off, but he is as usual coming under fire from among others, the 'international socialist' wings of his own party, even before the race starts!

But you never know the 'looney right's unmasking might just even things up.

Despite me coming from Bristol which was nothing like a northern red wall town or city, I have nonetheless long felt the same way about Labour. And I too was a long time member of the Labour party but resigned when Corbyn was elected leader. And I seriously considered not even voting Labour at the last election... but in the end did because I detested the local Tory MP.

And I said many times that Labour had to appeal to a much wider audience than the so called left to be considered capable of winning a GE.
I am hopeful that this time things will be different.
 
There is clearly a generational divide when it comes to politics these days outside of the traditional social value changes which every generation goes through. Economic and long term stability issues specifically. I don't think the Tory party will exist in 10/20 years time without them rigging elections to maintain power. They've alienated a generation to the point were there is visceral hatred of them. There was a lot hate for Thatcher, but loads of people gained property or rode a service sector boom off the back of her policies so they didn't kick up a fuss and allowed her dogma to shape our society. No such bribes are available to working people these days though so its a different playing field.

As someone who experienced the rise of Thatcher and the failure of Foot, how would you compare Corbyn's polices to what was on offer in the 80s? Was the 2017 Labour manifesto specifically going too far?

To me that seemed completely reasonable and achievable rather than some Looney Left dream. I'm gutted that Starmer lied when he said that manifesto would form the basis of his policy. I voted for Nandy in the leadership election, but I had faith that Starmer would at least stand up to his stated principles once he won. That faith was misplaced it seems.

@Maticmaker - Same question. Do you think Labour's manifesto under Corbyn went too far? As a former Labour man, what would bring you back into the fold?

Do you know what. I am not even sure how much notice many people actually take of a party's manifesto.
Nowadays, it is all about personality and what shit people read in the papers.

For me, even if I agreed with some of the Corbyn manifesto, far too much of it was being made on the hoof in response to the Tory ridiculous pledges.

Much like @Maticmaker, I have become very cynical when it comes to politicians and don't get at all surprised when they lie. For all his deficiencies, I didn't class Corbyn as a liar. He was just totally out of his depth.
 
Do you know what. I am not even sure how much notice many people actually take of a party's manifesto.
Nowadays, it is all about personality and what shit people read in the papers.

For me, even if I agreed with some of the Corbyn manifesto, far too much of it was being made on the hoof in response to the Tory ridiculous pledges.

Much like @Maticmaker, I have become very cynical when it comes to politicians and don't get at all surprised when they lie. For all his deficiencies, I didn't class Corbyn as a liar. He was just totally out of his depth.

If 5% of the population read a party's manifesto I'd be amazed. A lot always has depended on the personality of the leader. Labour haven't had a (credible) personality since Blair and Wilson before him.

I know our history has been rewritten by the current generation but I would say youngsters were far more left wing in the 60s and 70s than now.
 
If 5% of the population read a party's manifesto I'd be amazed. A lot always has depended on the personality of the leader. Labour haven't had a (credible) personality since Blair and Wilson before him.

I know our history has been rewritten by the current generation but I would say youngsters were far more left wing in the 60s and 70s than now.
I'd be amazed if it was 0.5% TBH, I'd agree about the 60's & 70's but I'd also add that those same youngsters are now more right wing than their parents generation was
 
I'd be amazed if it was 0.5% TBH, I'd agree about the 60's & 70's but I'd also add that those same youngsters are now more right wing than their parents generation was

True, 5%, I was being way too generous.
Yes those same Labour voters are probably now voting Tory.

Those rebel Marxist youngsters of today will probably do the same in 30 years time. You would hope the system had changed by then but I doubt it.
 
True, 5%, I was being way too generous.
Yes those same Labour voters are probably now voting Tory.

Those rebel Marxist youngsters of today will probably do the same in 30 years time. You would hope the system had changed by then but I doubt it.
I think there's a general trend that folks get more right wing as they get older, not just in the UK, right wing policies tend to give you more money in your pocket, tax cuts etc, we all like to keep our money, whereas when you're young you don't have any so it's other peoples money you wanna spend, bit of a generalization but I think it's broadly true
 
If 5% of the population read a party's manifesto I'd be amazed. A lot always has depended on the personality of the leader. Labour haven't had a (credible) personality since Blair and Wilson before him.

I know our history has been rewritten by the current generation but I would say youngsters were far more left wing in the 60s and 70s than now.

Completely agree with you about this.
New Labour had many really good policies. But it worked so well because it had a very charismatic leader in Tony Blair. Gordon Brown was probably more intelligent and slightly further to the left. But he was nothing like as charismatic as Blair and would have never won 3 elections.

And your last point is also quite right. The younger generation of the 60/70s were much more free thinking and independent in an age when everything seemed possible. They/we were not constrained by social media and the dreaded political correctness.
 
Do you know what. I am not even sure how much notice many people actually take of a party's manifesto.
Nowadays, it is all about personality and what shit people read in the papers.

For me, even if I agreed with some of the Corbyn manifesto, far too much of it was being made on the hoof in response to the Tory ridiculous pledges.

Much like @Maticmaker, I have become very cynical when it comes to politicians and don't get at all surprised when they lie. For all his deficiencies, I didn't class Corbyn as a liar. He was just totally out of his depth.

Personality is clearly a big factor in electability, but completely anecdotally, anyone I know that is remotely engaged in politics will at least have a gist of a manifesto if it is offering something. I may be completely wrong and potentially re-hashing arguments you had years ago, but there does seem to be a shift from the "brand" to substance. The biggest problem with politics these days is disengagement. Why read a manifesto that's only insight is how you go about re-arranging the deck chairs? When that's all what's on offer, people stop caring and resign themselves to accepting change is a fantasy. You end up with low voter turnouts and the people that turn up at the polls voting for their favourite face. That's not how a productive society should be functioning.
 
I think there's a general trend that folks get more right wing as they get older, not just in the UK, right wing policies tend to give you more money in your pocket, tax cuts etc, we all like to keep our money, whereas when you're young you don't have any so it's other peoples money you wanna spend, bit of a generalization but I think it's broadly true

There has always been the trend to becoming more socially conservative as you age. But that's more to do with society becoming more liberal and you staying planted. It's not you moving to the right per say.

Moving right economically has gone. People aren't/won't be financially secure until much later in life these days if ever. Owning a home, having children, saving for retirement are things that people can't afford to do until later in life than previous generations were able to do.
 
What the feck is 'voting negatively' exactly? Cursing at the computer screen while registering your vote?
Computer screen? In Britain we still mark an X on a piece of paper, ignoring any advances in technology.
 
Computer screen? In Britain we still mark an X on a piece of paper, ignoring any advances in technology.

The voting system on paper works fine. It protects against allegations of fraud if you use machines. Either way people still need to attend polling stations to vote. Having worked in elections, getting people to mark an X on a piece of paper is an achievement enough.