Westminster Politics

I mean this more as a matter of fact than Labour criticism (separate argument) but stuff like this is the only place the Tories have to turn. With Labour occupying the Cameron/Blair policy space the Tories have to move right to win votes.

I expect them to ramp this up Trump style whilst promising tax cuts and a reduced state.

If I were the Tories i'd go big on net zero funding and personal energy security via renewables grants. Heck I'm a leftie but if they out did Labour on climate change funding they'd get my vote.

:eek: How can anything the tories promise be believed?

They could pledge a trillion pounds in grants and subsidies in the next parliament, but it would be deliberately setup so they'd end up only spending a few billion on consultants and a new energy firm owned by Sunak's neighbour.
 
You're not happy people make claims about periods of your life using statistics but you were happy to make claims about young people today a few posts above.

You said young people were more left wing back in your day. How have you arrived at that conclusion? How do you know how left wing young people are today? I'd assume by making a judgement about them using.. statistics?

I said it was my personal opinion, not backing up with onerous misleading statistics, . Everyone who's posted on here of a similar age group say the same, they come from all walks of life and all parts of the country. For our time there are young people telling us how it was because they read something somewhere without having the slightest idea of what the mood of the country was.

In the present day we are both alive seeing how the situation is. Corbyn was nowhere near as popular or as competent a politician as the Labour people of the 60s and 70s like Wilson.
Starmer I'm making a guess that he is not loved by the current young people. I personally think he's an awful politician.
The mood seems to be that people should vote for Starmer because he may at least not be as bad as the Tories; what an endorsement.

The way things are shaping up, Starmer could take over from the Tories and nobody would hardly tell the difference.
 
Starmer I'm making a guess that he is not loved by the current young people. I personally think he's an awful politician.
The mood seems to be that people should vote for Starmer because he may at least not be as bad as the Tories; what an endorsement.

Starmer is not a leader who people young or old would pick out as 'the man for the job', he is not a 'smooth' character, a comedian, his one liners can back fire on him, he is however I suspect 'a winner' as much as anything because he realises the size of the task ahead and he seems to understand what needs to be done. He is aware that he needs not only to win but to win big if his government is going to achieve anything substantial, not just 'in government' but 'in power'. Starmer will say things he needs to say to survive (don't we all if the truth be told) he will change his mind when he realises he's going down a 'blind alley', again don't we all when we take the wrong turn. Starmer is making a virtue out of doing what needs to be done to capture the prize, that's OK by me.
 
Starmer is not a leader who people young or old would pick out as 'the man for the job', he is not a 'smooth' character, a comedian, his one liners can back fire on him, he is however I suspect 'a winner' as much as anything because he realises the size of the task ahead and he seems to understand what needs to be done. He is aware that he needs not only to win but to win big if his government is going to achieve anything substantial, not just 'in government' but 'in power'. Starmer will say things he needs to say to survive (don't we all if the truth be told) he will change his mind when he realises he's going down a 'blind alley', again don't we all when we take the wrong turn. Starmer is making a virtue out of doing what needs to be done to capture the prize, that's OK by me.

I haven't bought into the try to remain electable stance. As the election gets closer the only things he seems to stick with are, make brexit work and stop the boats. You could seeing him alienating more voters the nearer the election approaches. Some will say if we are having a fake Tory, we may as well have the real thing. Could see labour's huge poll lead diminish.

Then if he does get elected - what's he going to do. He'll only have one term to make a huge difference otherwise he's out, Labour are finished and Tories will be back for some considerable time. A strong personality and a convincing public speaker could pull it off. Starmer - just don't see him still being around by 2026/7. The Uk have got a very tough few years ahead whoever's in charge.
 
I said it was my personal opinion, not backing up with onerous misleading statistics, . Everyone who's posted on here of a similar age group say the same, they come from all walks of life and all parts of the country. For our time there are young people telling us how it was because they read something somewhere without having the slightest idea of what the mood of the country was.

In the present day we are both alive seeing how the situation is. Corbyn was nowhere near as popular or as competent a politician as the Labour people of the 60s and 70s like Wilson.
Starmer I'm making a guess that he is not loved by the current young people. I personally think he's an awful politician.
The mood seems to be that people should vote for Starmer because he may at least not be as bad as the Tories; what an endorsement.

The way things are shaping up, Starmer could take over from the Tories and nobody would hardly tell the difference.
This attitude is basically what got Trump elected in 2016, the thought was "he's not Clinton" - that worked out well!

As one of the older age group, I agree, without any stats etc, that young people in the 60's and 70's were more left wing than those of today
 
As one of the older age group, I agree, without any stats etc, that young people in the 60's and 70's were more left wing than those of today
And as another one I agree too, whatever stats are dredged up, and I will suggest two possible reasons.

Young people could afford to be more altruistic then in a way because they had no fear of unemployment. Jobs were easy come easy go from 1945 to around 1974, although by god it changed it then.

Thatcher came later with her disgraceful but oh so seductive 'greed is good for everyone' philosophy, and a lot of that has stuck and is still here, sadly.
 
And as another one I agree too, whatever stats are dredged up, and I will suggest two possible reasons.

Young people could afford to be more altruistic then in a way because they had no fear of unemployment. Jobs were easy come easy go from 1945 to around 1974, although by god it changed it then.

Thatcher came later with her disgraceful but oh so seductive 'greed is good for everyone' philosophy, and a lot of that has stuck and is still here, sadly.
It was a different world back then, Thatcher should have been a wake-up call but it led to Blair and Brown, who in reality were left wing Tories more than anything else, I'm not sure todays youngsters have any real idea what left-wing means anymore - and before they jump on me, that's my opinion not necessrily what stats etc tell us
 
The BBC have no got Farage asking for the Natwest Board to go as their main headline on their website. This makes me so angry. An elitist cnut can't get a bank account at an elitist bank and he's using this fecking story to keep himself in the spotlight.
 
The BBC have no got Farage asking for the Natwest Board to go as their main headline on their website. This makes me so angry. An elitist cnut can't get a bank account at an elitist bank and he's using this fecking story to keep himself in the spotlight.

You wonder what kompromat Farage has on certain BBC bosses. It's like they're his own personal PR firm.
 
You wonder what kompromat Farage has on certain BBC bosses. It's like they're his own personal PR firm.
There’s no Kompromat. His views align with their own, it’s that simple.
 
I haven't bought into the try to remain electable stance. As the election gets closer the only things he seems to stick with are, make brexit work and stop the boats. You could seeing him alienating more voters the nearer the election approaches. Some will say if we are having a fake Tory, we may as well have the real thing. Could see labour's huge poll lead diminish.

Then if he does get elected - what's he going to do. He'll only have one term to make a huge difference otherwise he's out, Labour are finished and Tories will be back for some considerable time. A strong personality and a convincing public speaker could pull it off. Starmer - just don't see him still being around by 2026/7. The Uk have got a very tough few years ahead whoever's in charge.

As I said in my opening remarks, Starmer is not a 'front man', but he knows realistically what is necessary to win and its a long time since Labour had a leader with that quality, I'm guessing now, but you were probably in short pants last time with Harold Wilson ;)... I discount Tony Blair because he had the 'personality gene', Starmer plainly doesn't.

Yes, Starmer keeps talking about 'making Brexit work' and 'stop the boats', because in both cases whoever wins will have to accomplish both or move significantly towards achieving both. We are out of the EU and we wont get back anytime soon, even if we wanted to, and even it the EU wanted us back, so we will have to make the best 'fist' of that decision and move on. Also illegal entry (via boats, at least) to the country has to stop, a different way has to be found for genuine asylum seekers, everyone knows this to be true.

Hence is Starmer really saying in such comments anything that people don't already know?

I believe his target is not just to win but to achieve a sizable, majority, not just a workable one. I am beginning to believe Starmer has a plan to achieve just this, but he will have to walk a very narrow path to achieve it with all sides 'gunning' for him, even his own. Yes, I agree he needs at least two terms to get even close to being (in my living memory) a true Labour PM leading a Party that is back in touch not only with its roots, but with the majority of the British people, seeking a way forward for the majority not the few.
 
As I said in my opening remarks, Starmer is not a 'front man', but he knows realistically what is necessary to win and its a long time since Labour had a leader with that quality, I'm guessing now, but you were probably in short pants last time with Harold Wilson ;)... I discount Tony Blair because he had the 'personality gene', Starmer plainly doesn't.

Yes, Starmer keeps talking about 'making Brexit work' and 'stop the boats', because in both cases whoever wins will have to accomplish both or move significantly towards achieving both. We are out of the EU and we wont get back anytime soon, even if we wanted to, and even it the EU wanted us back, so we will have to make the best 'fist' of that decision and move on. Also illegal entry (via boats, at least) to the country has to stop, a different way has to be found for genuine asylum seekers, everyone knows this to be true.

Hence is Starmer really saying in such comments anything that people don't already know?

I believe his target is not just to win but to achieve a sizable, majority, not just a workable one. I am beginning to believe Starmer has a plan to achieve just this, but he will have to walk a very narrow path to achieve it with all sides 'gunning' for him, even his own. Yes, I agree he needs at least two terms to get even close to being (in my living memory) a true Labour PM leading a Party that is back in touch not only with its roots, but with the majority of the British people, seeking a way forward for the majority not the few.

The last time I wore short pants (other than shorts was when I was about 9) being tall , I'd look damn silly!:cool:
The first time I ever voted I did vote for Wilson. There was so much going on in the 60s and 70s, even when I was at school I was interested in current affairs. My interest in UK politics died in the 80s until Brexit. That woke me up!

Simple way to start solving the asylum seeker problem is to open up legal routes. Starmer won't suggest this because it doesn't appeal to the people he's targetting for votes. I know the Uk won't be able to join the EU for a very long time. But it must start closing the gap very soon if it wants to at some point in the future. At some point soon Starmer will have to say what he's going to do about the laws and agreements the Tories have been putting into place to distance itself from the EU (and the rest of the world). The problem with Starmer, which has been the case all along, since 2016 is that he doesn't understand custom's unions or the single market and still believes in unicorns. Until that is taken out of his mind he will genuinely believe that he can make Brexit work.

I believe Starmer will do or say anything to gain another vote. It will backfire drastically. He's being set up to hold the Brexit baby and forthcoming economic disaster over the next few years. The Tories really don't mind losing the next election.
 
Jobs were easy come easy go from 1945 to around 1974, although by god it changed it then.
IMO the Oil Crisis was the main catalyst for that ... 'Thatcherism' was a reaction to it. Maggie launched her 'theories' at just the right time and blew all opposition away. For a long time Labour couldn't find its way out of a 'paper bag'.

Arthur Scargill had been successful with his 'flying pickets' in the first Miners strike, but he didn't change his tactics for the second one and consequently Maggie was ready for him. Scargill led the Miners on a charge to a glorious defeat, that in the period and beyond that shattered thousands of lives and many of their descendants are still having to live with the consequences. The fallout effect on trades unionists not just in Mining, but all across British industry was devastating, and they were to suffer under the anti union laws brought in by the Tories. This was a major reduction in the power of unionised labour, that is now showing itself in the low wage/zero-hours/ working poor/etc, and the low numbers who are currently unionised
Decent paying Jobs didn't just disappear, they were never replaced!
 
This is odd, she really reminds me of someone, but for the life of me I cant think who.
She looks a bit like former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. It's as if she shares DNA with former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, because she has similar features to former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Which is strange because as far as I'm aware, based on what I've read in the press, she isn't the daughter of former Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

But there's a very Boris "former Prime Minister" Johnson look about her, in my opinion which is based on no evidence or media reports whatsoever.
 
She looks a bit like former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. It's as if she shares DNA with former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, because she has similar features to former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Which is strange because as far as I'm aware, based on what I've read in the press, she isn't the daughter of former Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

But there's a very Boris "former Prime Minister" Johnson look about her, in my opinion which is based on no evidence or media reports whatsoever.

No, it can't be him, I mean it could be, but if there was any chance of it being him, I couldn't see the lofty political standards he maintains allowing him to grant someone related to him a life long peerage, even if that person was fully deserving, having contributed so much to the country, as I believe is the case here.
 
No, it can't be him, I mean it could be, but if there was any chance of it being him, I couldn't see the lofty political standards he maintains allowing him to grant someone related to him a life long peerage, even if that person was fully deserving, having contributed so much to the country, as I believe is the case here.
Hang on a second, I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself there look alike. NOBODY IS SAYING that she is related to Boris Johnson. I'm certainly not saying she's - just off the top of my head - an aunt or daughter of the guy. I'm just saying that she and he look similar.

But lots of people that aren't necessarily related. Prince Harry looks like James Hewitt, for example. I've even heard people say I look like other folk. Folk like my uncle's brother, or my grandma's son. Some folk even claim that I look like my mum's husband.
 
IMO the Oil Crisis was the main catalyst for that ... 'Thatcherism' was a reaction to it. Maggie launched her 'theories' at just the right time and blew all opposition away. For a long time Labour couldn't find its way out of a 'paper bag'.

Arthur Scargill had been successful with his 'flying pickets' in the first Miners strike, but he didn't change his tactics for the second one and consequently Maggie was ready for him. Scargill led the Miners on a charge to a glorious defeat, that in the period and beyond that shattered thousands of lives and many of their descendants are still having to live with the consequences. The fallout effect on trades unionists not just in Mining, but all across British industry was devastating, and they were to suffer under the anti union laws brought in by the Tories. This was a major reduction in the power of unionised labour, that is now showing itself in the low wage/zero-hours/ working poor/etc, and the low numbers who are currently unionised
Decent paying Jobs didn't just disappear, they were never replaced!

In my opinion has more to do with women getting in the job market. You cant create almost double the jobs in a few years
 
If I had two wishes the first would be for maticmaker to learn to use quotation marks properly
 
The problem with Starmer, which has been the case all along, since 2016 is that he doesn't understand custom's unions or the single market and still believes in unicorns. Until that is taken out of his mind he will genuinely believe that he can make Brexit work.

I believe Starmer will do or say anything to gain another vote.
It will backfire drastically. He's being set up to hold the Brexit baby and forthcoming economic disaster over the next few years. The Tories really don't mind losing the next election.

I think he does, he realises that we are now outside the EU and there is no going back at least in the foreseeable future and therefore 'staying close' as you say, to the EU, is effectively a 'marching on the spot' exercise and is therefore not really an option!
We will see in due course exactly what Starmer means by making Brexit work. I suspect he wants to make/begin some fundamental and long lasting changes to and within the UK. Speculating of course, but this might even mean a Unified Ireland and an Independent Scotland as part of the price to be paid for establishing a new 'United Britain', and perhaps for the first time with a written constitution. Of course to do that will require the identification of and the garnering of support for a 'vision' (some of course might say 'a unicorn') with a sizable commons majority over at least two terms in Government, possibly a record period in Government.
Of course climate change will drive everything, but we all know within national boundaries (as well as world wide) this won't work until the majority is on onboard.

Of course Starmer is after every vote he can get and will risk losing some voters to gain others; 'shifting/dumping dead weight' in ideology is just as important as in policy as Kinnock and then Blair did; fight the battles you can win, avoid the ones you can't. Carrying the majority is all important and Starmer knows that.

I once spent a short time working in West Germany (obviously before Unification) and one of the things that stuck with me was how the Germans, at least to me, appeared to look at things. The top 20% of the population could take care of themselves, the bottom 20% would always need support, but the main effort and energy and focus of the government had to be aimed at the middle 60%, for these were the people who carried Germany forward, the majority, and they should get the majority support and be those who were 'best pleased with their lot'.
Struck me as being an eminently sensible way to look at things.

{* Apologies to any of our RedCaf German contributors if I have misunderstood, it was along time ago anyway}
 
I think he does, he realises that we are now outside the EU and there is no going back at least in the foreseeable future and therefore 'staying close' as you say, to the EU, is effectively a 'marching on the spot' exercise and is therefore not really an option!
We will see in due course exactly what Starmer means by making Brexit work. I suspect he wants to make/begin some fundamental and long lasting changes to and within the UK. Speculating of course, but this might even mean a Unified Ireland and an Independent Scotland as part of the price to be paid for establishing a new 'United Britain', and perhaps for the first time with a written constitution. Of course to do that will require the identification of and the garnering of support for a 'vision' (some of course might say 'a unicorn') with a sizable commons majority over at least two terms in Government, possibly a record period in Government.
Of course climate change will drive everything, but we all know within national boundaries (as well as world wide) this won't work until the majority is on onboard.

Of course Starmer is after every vote he can get and will risk losing some voters to gain others; 'shifting/dumping dead weight' in ideology is just as important as in policy as Kinnock and then Blair did; fight the battles you can win, avoid the ones you can't. Carrying the majority is all important and Starmer knows that.

I once spent a short time working in West Germany (obviously before Unification) and one of the things that stuck with me was how the Germans, at least to me, appeared to look at things. The top 20% of the population could take care of themselves, the bottom 20% would always need support, but the main effort and energy and focus of the government had to be aimed at the middle 60%, for these were the people who carried Germany forward, the majority, and they should get the majority support and be those who were 'best pleased with their lot'.
Struck me as being an eminently sensible way to look at things.

{* Apologies to any of our RedCaf German contributors if I have misunderstood, it was along time ago anyway}

The problem is that the UK isn't marching on the spot. The CPTTP takes the UK further steps away from the EU by harming the UK itself (even though they don't know it yet). The new UK standard certifications yet to be introduced will take the UK another few steps away not only from the EU but for trade with a lot of the rest of the world.

Not only Starmer , but the other members of the shadow cabinet talk of renegotiating the deal with the EU. That's not happening. Keeping the asylum policy will alienate the Uk from the EU and many other countries. Is Starmer going to reverse all these things? probably not, so he's taking the UK further away. The Tories will trash a few more things before they go.

His climate policy sounds like pie in the sky and he looks to be postponing that as well. No idea what's in his mind. Desperate to be elected with no vision, just bouncing around hoping to collar some votes.

This I thought would be the opportunity to get the UK back on track after the last terrible years but Labour haven't got the right leader.
 
I think he does, he realises that we are now outside the EU and there is no going back at least in the foreseeable future and therefore 'staying close' as you say, to the EU, is effectively a 'marching on the spot' exercise and is therefore not really an option!
We will see in due course exactly what Starmer means by making Brexit work. I suspect he wants to make/begin some fundamental and long lasting changes to and within the UK. Speculating of course, but this might even mean a Unified Ireland and an Independent Scotland as part of the price to be paid for establishing a new 'United Britain', and perhaps for the first time with a written constitution. Of course to do that will require the identification of and the garnering of support for a 'vision' (some of course might say 'a unicorn') with a sizable commons majority over at least two terms in Government, possibly a record period in Government.
Of course climate change will drive everything, but we all know within national boundaries (as well as world wide) this won't work until the majority is on onboard.

Of course Starmer is after every vote he can get and will risk losing some voters to gain others; 'shifting/dumping dead weight' in ideology is just as important as in policy as Kinnock and then Blair did; fight the battles you can win, avoid the ones you can't. Carrying the majority is all important and Starmer knows that.

I once spent a short time working in West Germany (obviously before Unification) and one of the things that stuck with me was how the Germans, at least to me, appeared to look at things. The top 20% of the population could take care of themselves, the bottom 20% would always need support, but the main effort and energy and focus of the government had to be aimed at the middle 60%, for these were the people who carried Germany forward, the majority, and they should get the majority support and be those who were 'best pleased with their lot'.
Struck me as being an eminently sensible way to look at things.

{* Apologies to any of our RedCaf German contributors if I have misunderstood, it was along time ago anyway}
On the last part, I'm guessing here so I maybe completely off base, I suspect the German PR voting system is responsible for much of what you say

Britain's FPTP system means parties/politicians only need to attract a narrow band of voters to gain/lose power, PR gives widens that
 
The problem is that the UK isn't marching on the spot. The CPTTP takes the UK further steps away from the EU by harming the UK itself (even though they don't know it yet). The new UK standard certifications yet to be introduced will take the UK another few steps away not only from the EU but for trade with a lot of the rest of the world.

Not only Starmer , but the other members of the shadow cabinet talk of renegotiating the deal with the EU. That's not happening. Keeping the asylum policy will alienate the Uk from the EU and many other countries. Is Starmer going to reverse all these things? probably not, so he's taking the UK further away. The Tories will trash a few more things before they go.

His climate policy sounds like pie in the sky and he looks to be postponing that as well. No idea what's in his mind. Desperate to be elected with no vision, just bouncing around hoping to collar some votes.

This I thought would be the opportunity to get the UK back on track after the last terrible years but Labour haven't got the right leader.

You have made it abundantly clear over many many months that Starmer and Labour just don't understand the position that the UK finds itself in with the EU. And yes of course I understand that you no longer live in the UK.
But I was just wondering whether, as someone who does understand precisely that situation, you could offer to give them the benefit of your knowledge and experience as an advisor.

But if that is not practical, whether you would give us here a bullet point summary of the problem areas, cause and effect?
I would be more than happy to then forward that to my MP and ask him what his government is doing about it.

Edit. I believe you have joint UK/French citizenship?
 
You have made it abundantly clear over many many months that Starmer and Labour just don't understand the position that the UK finds itself in with the EU. And yes of course I understand that you no longer live in the UK.
But I was just wondering whether, as someone who does understand precisely that situation, you could offer to give them the benefit of your knowledge and experience as an advisor.

But if that is not practical, whether you would give us here a bullet point summary of the problem areas, cause and effect?
I would be more than happy to then forward that to my MP and ask him what his government is doing about it.

Edit. I believe you have joint UK/French citizenship?

Yes I have dual nationality.

To summarise the points.

1. There will be no renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement. Any alterations to the trade agreement will be minor.
This point is especially important for whichever party is talking about it. People say that the Tories negotiated a bad deal and that there were different types of Brexit available.

Whatever was negotiated this is how it was going to turn out, no matter how many bits of tweaking around the edges. Talk of being in the customs union and/or the single market but still being outside the EU makes no sense from whichever party is saying so. Either the UK is in it all or out of it all.

Thus until the UK does return eventually to the EU, the barriers , paperwork , trade difficulties will remain and actually get worse if they change standards and continue on the current path.

2) The CPTTP will not bring any advantage to the UK. There is talk of opening up to large markets because they are more developing than the EU for example. There are several problems with this. There was nothing stopping the UK trading with these countries before and they did, I did, despite the Brexit lies.
The rules of the CPTTP are in place and the UK have no say in them.
Why and what will the other CPTTP countries buy from the UK which they can't get from some closer country and at cheaper prices?
For the CPTTP countries they will be able to dump in the UK what others don't want.

Importing products into the UK which do not meet EU standards will impact sales to what will still be the UK's main market, the EU, even though the UK is outside teh EU.

I've tried to keep to the main points and could probably write a book on the problems I haven't mentioned.

3) UK standards. It is reported that the UK will shortly change the certification standards for products. The CE mark for EU standard products will change to UKCA. Still vague what this will apply to.

To sell in the UK products will need the UKCA mark. This poses several problems.
The UKCA will not be recognised elsewhere. Products that are EU certified are accepted in quite a few countries even outside the EU;
For EU countries to sell the products that this applies to then they will have to be certified for the EU and the UK; Double certification costs will probably mean countries won't bother with the UK.
This will also apply to countries outside the EU. For example a business in a developing country wants to sell its products in Europe. They won't want to pay for certification to CE standard which is acceptable I belive in about 50 countries and then pay for another certification that only covers the UK.

4) Asylum seekers/immigration.

Should the UK continue with its trajectory on asylum seekers and break international law/agreements or leave the ECHR then all trade deals are threatened by cancellation, including a threat to the Northern Ireland situation.

I have kept this quite brief and concentrated mainly on trade but there's so much more to say which has been covered in the main since 2016. Nothing that has happened since 2016 has remotely surprised me or changed my view on how riduiculous the decision to leave the EU was.

The question is regarding Starmer, is whether he is going to continue on the same trajectory as the Tories or is he going to reverse what has happened so far. If he is basing his plan on renegotiating the withdrawal agreement or make vast changes to the trade agreement, then his plan is finished before it starts. This is what concerns me.
 
She looks a bit like former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. It's as if she shares DNA with former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, because she has similar features to former Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Which is strange because as far as I'm aware, based on what I've read in the press, she isn't the daughter of former Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

But there's a very Boris "former Prime Minister" Johnson look about her, in my opinion which is based on no evidence or media reports whatsoever.
Nah, you're wrong, she looks more like that radio presenter on LBC, Rachel something