Westminster Politics
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Starmer is considerably more authoritarian than Corbyn. So much so that the first word that I'd use to describe him is authoritarian.
Yeah, i guess you have the play the system as it exists. Just sounds like a bizarre statement when he has decades of being elected, widespread support for all the policies hes advocating for and Lizz Truss as prime minister.
Electoral reform really should be the no1 public issue that's hammered home incessantly.
Hardly the worst tory campaign in living memory given that the tories called a snap election to try and get a larger majority.
And then considering it was the highest vote share increase for any labour leader since the war. I do find it quite surprising that you continue to push this "took the party out as an electoral force". Unless your referencing Millibands campaign and I'm misunderstanding something here? Or are you referencing 2019, the campaign about brexit?
Please share them. Your facts seem to be mostly opinions so far and largely incorrect ones.
But please tell me more about how Ed Milliband was a much better leader than the one who's campaign you describe as a cancer. Despite getting the largest vote share increase for labour in near a century. 10% more votes than Milliband managed...
Oh really? Well then please tell me why labour were doing better in the polls in October compared to now? And Corbyn was still a potential labour candidate in October. If the lead is down to starmer kicking people out, surely it should have taken a big increase after deselecting corbyn? But.... It's went down since.
"The authors point to a long-term decline in voter loyalty to Labour, connected to weaker community links, such as through trade unions."
Well at least we have Starmer now pushing the trade union links. Oh wait no.. He's busy telling his MPs not to join picket lines
"The report is unflinching in its analysis of how the leader’s appeal to voters plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Had his popularity stayed at its peak level, it says, Labour’s vote share in 2019 would have been 6 percentage points higher"
Appeal plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Wonder what caused that? It's nearly as if he was once incredibly popular.
Its nearly as if a certain group of media moguls felt threatened by his manifesto and spread propoganda to keep him out. Crazy how a MP with 40 years experience suddenly became anti semetic and numerous other things overnight. I wonder what the Jewish people who he has represented for 40 years think of him. Here you go babes - https://www.islingtontribune.co.uk/article/the-denunciation-of-jeremy-corbyn-is-wrong
Not as if the BBC ever reported any bias or inaccuracies:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...report-on-jeremy-corbyn-was-inaccurate-labour
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...rg-removes-tweet-activist-punching-tory-aide/
The BBC made alot of "mistakes" in the build up to the 2019 campaign where they regularly told us just how anti British corbyn is. They even somehow managed to show a clip from years earlier of Boris placing a wreath incorrectly and disrespectfully on remembrance day - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50374630
But sure it's just a mistake that happens all the time. You always see them accidently playing a 10 Year old eastenders episode or showing match of the day from 7 years back.. Happens all the time.
Defo had nothing to do with their corbyn anti British campaign in the build up to the 2019 election. Because a clip of corbyn laying a wreath respectfully and johnson not would really have helped the "anti British" campaign.
But of course I'm wrong. The BBC and daily mail are completely impartial and always have been. Defo been no talks of BBC impartiality recently.
And going back to the impartiality and the laura kuntface link above. This is what the director of BBC news had to say about the BBC trust finding it to be impartial
But when it's impartiality the other way. And by other way I mean Martine Croxall appearing to be "too gleeful" when announcing Boris won't be standing for election the BBC say
No disagreements. No outstanding journalist. No comment.
At least we've not had any issues of impartiality over Starmer yet and thankfully I don't think it will. Nearly as if all those tory BBC directors are.... Quite happy for him to win an election. I wonder why? :s
But hey @nickm at least Starmer has sorted out all this anti semtisim.
Particularly targeting those from Jewish Voice for Labour. If you're a member of JVL you are 180 times more likely to have faced an actioned complaint of antisemitism than a non Jewish labour member. (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims)
It's like calling a party islamophobic and then purging all the Islamic members lol!
Guess they must have been the wrong type of jew...
At least Starmer is leading the way in talking out against the current corruption within Israel where the hard right wing leader wants to change the law so that he can appoint judges before his own court appearance for corruption.
Oh wait or course not. Because speaking out against hard right politicians is Israel is anti semetistic according to Starmers labour and the "impartial" British media.
Particularly targeting those from Jewish Voice for Labour. If you're a member of JVL you are 180 times more likely to have faced an actioned complaint of antisemitism than a non Jewish labour member. (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims)
It's like calling a party islamophobic and then purging all the Islamic members lol!
Guess they must have been the wrong type of jew...
At least Starmer is leading the way in talking out against the current corruption within Israel where the hard right wing leader wants to change the law so that he can appoint judges before his own court appearance for corruption.
Oh wait or course not. Because speaking out against hard right politicians is Israel is anti semetistic according to Starmers labour and the "impartial" British media.
Good timing frosty. According to our buddy nickm labour have never been stronger since purging the left from the party...
Also @nickm sarcasm aside I'm really enjoying the debate and thank you for engaging in it. This is what this thread should be about, debating, not an echo chamber. So thank you very much for engaging. Whether we agree or not, we can at least respect others views and the good conversation which comes from it..
To be fair neither Truss or Sunak have won a general election. Both were voted in by Conservative members as they only need to call a GE 5 years after winning their last election.
The biggest issue right now though in my opinion is media propoganda and the very fact that the BBC has been infiltrated at all levels by people with ties to the Conservative party. So even our national broadcaster is incredibly bias.
And as you can tell by the comments in this thread. Even those who consider themselves "left wing" fell for the propoganda.
And we haven't even got to discussing the forde report yet either.
I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
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I always come out left wing libertarian on that compass because it really doesn't pick out subtleties within the left and right. For instance, I would oppose, absolutely, private and faith schooling which is clearly not liberal but it can't pick that up because it's over-ridden by me not finding sex sinful or considering morality to come from God.I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
So, it's unlikely to be overly useful in the who is the most left of us all competition.
As for the matter at hand, I accept the reality that I will never see a left wing Government in my lifetime, and that Starmer's Labour is, in far fewer ways than I'd like, better than the Tories but I find it soul sappingly depressing that this is where we are. Starmer actually scares me, and in a different way from the Tories. I think he's capable of causing terrible suffering due to his utter belief in establishment and the law, and any delight that I have in any defeat of the Tories will be tempered both by this and the experience of my political hopes and naivety being stripped away under our last Labour Government.
What in the actual feck is this?
"The authors point to a long-term decline in voter loyalty to Labour, connected to weaker community links, such as through trade unions."
Well at least we have Starmer now pushing the trade union links. Oh wait no.. He's busy telling his MPs not to join picket lines
"The report is unflinching in its analysis of how the leader’s appeal to voters plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Had his popularity stayed at its peak level, it says, Labour’s vote share in 2019 would have been 6 percentage points higher"
Appeal plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Wonder what caused that? It's nearly as if he was once incredibly popular.
Its nearly as if a certain group of media moguls felt threatened by his manifesto and spread propoganda to keep him out. Crazy how a MP with 40 years experience suddenly became anti semetic and numerous other things overnight. I wonder what the Jewish people who he has represented for 40 years think of him. Here you go babes - https://www.islingtontribune.co.uk/article/the-denunciation-of-jeremy-corbyn-is-wrong
Not as if the BBC ever reported any bias or inaccuracies:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...report-on-jeremy-corbyn-was-inaccurate-labour
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...rg-removes-tweet-activist-punching-tory-aide/
The BBC made alot of "mistakes" in the build up to the 2019 campaign where they regularly told us just how anti British corbyn is. They even somehow managed to show a clip from years earlier of Boris placing a wreath incorrectly and disrespectfully on remembrance day - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50374630
But sure it's just a mistake that happens all the time. You always see them accidently playing a 10 Year old eastenders episode or showing match of the day from 7 years back.. Happens all the time.
Defo had nothing to do with their corbyn anti British campaign in the build up to the 2019 election. Because a clip of corbyn laying a wreath respectfully and johnson not would really have helped the "anti British" campaign.
But of course I'm wrong. The BBC and daily mail are completely impartial and always have been. Defo been no talks of BBC impartiality recently.
And going back to the impartiality and the laura kuntface link above. This is what the director of BBC news had to say about the BBC trust finding it to be impartial
But when it's impartiality the other way. And by other way I mean Martine Croxall appearing to be "too gleeful" when announcing Boris won't be standing for election the BBC say
No disagreements. No outstanding journalist. No comment.
At least we've not had any issues of impartiality over Starmer yet and thankfully I don't think it will. Nearly as if all those tory BBC directors are.... Quite happy for him to win an election. I wonder why? :s
BBC Newsnights coverage of Corbyn when Leader of the Opposition was "sound news judgement" so therefore completely impartial...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/may/11/bbc-rejects-complaints-newsnight-corbyn-russian
Why do you think its bait?I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
Well we're continually hearing in this thread about what a cancer corbyn is and how he destroyed the Labour Party and is unelectable. What's that based on? Propoganda.
We've had 2 labour leaders in power in the last 20 nevermind 50 years. Not sure what the rest of the paragraph is about.
Not sure why I need to do a political compass test to show my political views. Not really sure where I am on the political spectrum but I'd say pretty far left. But then some of my political views contradict each other so I'm still not sure where I fully sit.
I strongly oppose capatilsm and would consider myself to be a socialist and a pacifist. However I'm also influenced by Marxist ideology too and I guess this is where I contradict my pacifist views. Because while I don't agree with armies of innocent people killing each other due to a few dictators not getting along. I probably would support a class war.
I also sympathise with parts of the East German regime and can see alot of positives from it too. Social housing readily available, plenty of food state subsidised, great childcare freely available, jobs provided by the state, a strong focus on sport community and extra curricular activities, free and readily available health care and education and even free holidays put on by the state.
With that said though we're obviously alot of well documented criticisms too. A lack of democracy at elections, restrictions on travel, the state actively spying on people and many worse things.
But then let's look at what happened after German unification. The East Germans were all provided currency they could use in West Germany when the wall got knocked down. So what did the shop owners do? They pushed their prices up to extortionate amounts knowing the East Germans didn't understand the value and basically robbed them. Germany also moved production from alot of huge factories in east Germany to West German factories instead making lots of people unemployed. And then wealthy west Germans bought up said factories for peanuts. And even still today there is alot of inequality between west and east Germany. But in the vast majority of documentaries it's painted west good and east bad. But it's very much not the case at all in my opinion.
And I guess using east Germany as an example of a corrupt socialist state is what pushes me more from socialist views to Marxist views because the GDR an excellent example of corruption in a socialist state.
BBC Newsnights coverage of Corbyn when Leader of the Opposition was "sound news judgement" so therefore completely impartial...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/may/11/bbc-rejects-complaints-newsnight-corbyn-russian
And then we had all the tweets at the time from Lord Sugar and Andrew Neil too.
Was never an issue with impartiality then though.. That was allowed. But dare gary Linekar compare the language of a tory policy to 1930s Germany and WWIII starts.
But according to some on here Corbyn just decided to became a raging anti British, pro Russian, anti Jewish scumbag in the 2 years between 2017 and 2019 after a 40 year career in polticis.
Because you knows he's just a massive wanker and cancer to the country. Nothing like the outstanding citizen and man of the people Kier Starmer. Kiers out there every day shoulder to shoulder with the working man campaigning for better pay and working rights. While corbyn spends his days covering synagogues in bacon.
Most frustrating though for me is continually being compared to some secret tory or troll for rightfully criticising Starmer.
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We are slowly turning into America.
It’s not that slow.
Thanks for this! I did mine…
https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass_js?ec=-4.38&soc=-2.92
…then asked for the certificate (!) and found from their caricatures that I am……. fecking Bernie Sanders (!!)
That website tells Boris voters they're left lib.
I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
Gave that a go. Turns out I'm a left libertarian extremist like you.
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Are people seriously now trying to 'prove' how left wing they are now? If so, please take it to another thread.
As @DOTA said, you have to be a rabid neo-nazi to end up in a righthand quadrant with that test anyway.
As @DOTA said, you have to be a rabid neo-nazi to end up in a righthand quadrant with that test anyway.
I thought they took back control when they voted for Brexit?
What do they want to take control of now, and why aren't they already in control of it after 13 years in power?
It isn't a very sensitive scale, is it? It puts me right in the same bottom left corner as probably 99% of the caf. Or perhaps factional arguments make us believe we are more different than we are?
You have mentioned opinions a few times. What are you basing the statements that Corbyn would hold the same or larger lead now? Is there some polling being done
You've extensively referenced the media treatment of Corbyn and it was clearly biased and unfair. What's changed in the media since 2019 (or what regulatory reform do you see the conservatives implementing between now and the next election) to eliminate that bias? Do you feel he could avoid any media missteps? Are there any positions he might hold that could be used against him?
Calling ThehatchetMan a secret Tory is hilarious, sorry
It was more an exagerstion to those who suggest labour are where they are due to Starmers actions. I even said Lord Buckethead as a leader would probably poll as well too. Because labour are only polling as they are due to take your pick of:
Covid fraud
Chancellor fraud
Lobbying fraud
Brexit failures
NHS failures
Pincher by name pincher by nature
PartyGate
Whatsapp Leaks
And many more gifts on a plate for starmer
Labour aren't polling as they are due to Starmers purge of the left (they've dropped in polls since) or his non existent union support or his plans to focus on graffiti and petty crime. Actually it feels like every time starmer takes an action that labour poll worse.
Of course though none of us will truly know the answer. But given most of labours gains are through tory mishaps, I believe even corbyn would be leading the polls right now. And if Starmer was feared by the right wing as much then i'm sure they'd have put more focus on Starmers links to the Jimmy Saville case. Something BJ tried a few times and something I know is bs (just like alot of the corbyn stuff) but it didn't stop the media when it came to Corbyn.
Calling ThehatchetMan a secret Tory is hilarious, sorry
I can sort of see why some may say it because when it comes to politics there's alot of tribalism within the 2 big uk parties and a feeling of "you're either with us or against us".
But disliking Starmer doesn't mean I suddenly love tories. I'd pick Starmers labour over them every day because we desperately need change. I just don't have confidence in Starmer making the changes we need.
Alot can change in 18 months and I could easily be wrong. I bloody well hope I am.
They’ve been copying trump tactics since day 1. I think I said it about 4 years ago. Blatant. Such a shower of gobshites out for themselves. And yet here we are arguing about Labour. It’s why the Tories get in every bloody time because people get wrapped up in Labour stories. Why is it always knock the opposition rather than keep the pressure on those in government? I don’t get it
First bold part I can't agree with you more.
Second part I disagree with, when some of the main points of campaigning, if you can call it that, is on closing tax loopholes exploited by the top 1% and by removing the tax exemption from Fee Paying Schools. That's going after a big element of the establishment I would have thought...
1. Those polls were taken around or just after the disastrous Truss budget. The Tories have changed leaders, done a couple of budgets since then and pulled back a few points as a result. Corbyn's presence in the party is immaterial to this kind of polling, he's yesterday's man (and kicking him out of the party underlines this).
2. The Labour lead is still enormous - it's still a landslide majority of ~138!
3. I expect the Labour lead to fall further just through the normal forces of political gravity, nobody would expect them to win a majority of 250+. But so far the Tories are still polling at around 30%, their core support. They are nowhere near having a broad enough appeal to win those centre ground votes that they need, and that Labour seems to have bedded in.
So according to those numbers, Labour are still on track for a Blair style landslide while the Tories have only firmed up their core support. And the problem with that is...?
No, survey data. An Opinion Poll done just after the election found that 43% of people who didn't vote Labour cited the leadership as the reason.
Brilliant, thanks for that. Feck me, I bet the trains ran on time too.
So 43% of people who didn't vote Labour blamed the leader. Wonder how many of that 43% also vote tory.
You're the one calling corbyn a cancer though that made the party unelectable.
But according to a yougov poll on Milliband, his results were even worse:
"The YouGov poll showed that 60% of those questioned felt Ed Miliband was "not up to the job" of being PM, compared to 20% who said he was. By contrast, more thought Cameron was up to the job (43%) than did not (39%).
Ed Miliband was judged weak by 59% and strong by just 13%, while Cameron was seen as strong by 37% and weak by 33%."
So using your own vocabulary. That would mean Milliband was an even bigger "cancer" and left the party even less electable. And that Corbyn inherited a much worse party than Starmer...
Opinium also did a large poll on election day where they published this:
"Despite Labour’s attempt to shift the narrative away from Brexit over the course of their campaign, Boris Johnson will have his Brexit election. A third (33%) will go to the polls tomorrow basing their vote on Brexit, while only 23% intend to vote based on the NHS. By comparison, this time in 2017, voting intention based on Brexit and the NHS was equal, at 19%."
Looking at the data from the poll also shows that for 70% of voters who indicated they would vote Conservative, their stance on Brexit was a main reason.
Given that almost every seat Labour lost in 2019 was a leave voting constituency, the idea that Brexit was not the main driver of Labour's collapse in 2019 is fanciful at best.
Now I am not saying many voters were not put off by him after he was monstered by the media for several years... but the idea that Labour's collapse in 2019 was more down to him personally, rather than the party's Brexit stance putting off leave voters is revisionist nonsense.
1. Pleased to see you agree that labour are polling as they are mainly due to the torys actions rather than anything starmer has done.
2. Still 18 months away though and the longer the tories steady the ship then more than likely that lead will get narrower. As it already has done as per your point 1.
I've no issue with it as I still prefer starmer over tories. My worries are what comes after the election and if the changes we need aren't delivered then we could very easily go back to another decade of tories.
And I'm not confident that Starmer has what it takes to do what is needed. But I hope you can quote me in 2 years and prove me wrong. That would be the best scenario.
How are you figuring out a 138 seat majority from those numbers?
Playing with this tool here, it's quite fun. I'm not trying to be scientific with it though, so don't hold me to every %.