Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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If the tories are the benchmark we're using to judge starmer then god help us all. You may as well replace Starmer with Lord Buckethead in your sentence.
When others suggest they’d happily have another 5yrs of this story government because Starmer isn’t squeaky clean then you have to highlight issue like those above.
When others are happy to have starmer simply because he isn't a tory then this also needs to be highlighted.
Without the promise of the dramatic reforms we need, a Labour government headed up by Starmer could very easily lose the election after next. And the classic lines "they're all as bad as each other" will never be truer.
What is it about Starmers vision that has you in such strong support?
"Don't vote for Labour because if they win they might not win again in five years" is certainly a new one for me.
She probably printed off the only copy and ate it under her bridge, the fecking troll.
I haven't said not to vote Labour.
All I'm saying is that this election is being handed to labour on the plate. Labour are where they are in the polls through tory incompetence rather than through Starmers supiority.
I reckon labour could change leader tomorrow and still be well ahead in the polls.
There are many things starmer has said and done which I don't agree with and I don't believe his views are what id call left wing either.
Labour lost the last election primarily due to media manipulation and as such the tories have alot of power through the right wing press. But even this isnt enough to cover up the recent corruption and get the public on side. But boy oh boy they still do try their damnest.
I don't have confidence in starmer delivering what is needed. And as such I believe the election after next, and those there after, could be a real challenge. Having just experienced 13 years of tory austerity, this is something to be concerned about.
Too many people are too fixated on labour winning the next election and little all else. Boris Johnson could be leading the party and certain individuals would still vote them.
As Starmer has said many times on PMQs "country over party" for me.
Both can be big cnuts.
I wouldn't vote Tory. I'd like to be able to hold my nose and vote Starmer, but he makes it more difficult with every passing month.
Not voting for Starmers Labour does not mean others would "happily have another 5 years of this Tory government". It means Starmer has either not done enough to win their vote or has alienated historical Labour supporters.
I’m afraid in the two-party, FPTP system that we have, not voting Labour / not voting strategically to get the Tories out is ‘happily having another 5 years of this story government’.
No fringe party is getting in to a coalition with any meaningful say.
Yeah, sure, we’d all like Starmer to be better than he is, but he’s what we’ve got right now as the only alternative to this gang of corrupt scumbags.
So you ask, is Starmer’s Labour an improvement (no matter how small you think it might be. I personally believe getting the government to actually do its job would be a marked improvement)?
If it is then you vote for it.
Then at the next election you vote for the next best option, then the next and the next.
This country does not do radical shifts, especially to the Left. The best we can hope for is incremental improvement.
A perfectly normal government in perfectly normal times!
I don't think that's the case. If all Starmer is offering is a slightly different version of what's happening under the Tories, you could imagine the people he's trying to suck up will say, we may as well have the real thing.
If the country aren't sick of what has been happening with the Tories and Starmer only wants to please the xenophobes and Brexiters and hopes he can win their votes, the country's a lost cause anyway.
Why not be radical and do things that are good for the country and if the leader had any gumption or character, he could try and convince them. Still 18 months to go, wasted 3 years so far. Starmer is probably the most hopeless leader Labour have had since the war. And that's saying something.
Appropriate...
Raw sewage being dumped in environment secretary Therese Coffey’s own constituency
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sewage-dumping-therese-coffey-b2315522.html
Raw sewage being dumped in environment secretary Therese Coffey’s own constituency
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sewage-dumping-therese-coffey-b2315522.html
Well said.
Well said also.
Those who vote starmer simply because he's labour are no better than the tory voters who will vote a tory simply because they're tory.
I'm still yet to here Jeri come through and tell us the reasons to vote starmer.
Starmer is not a particularly likeable person in my view.
But to give him credit, he has done a lot to make Labour more electable than for a few years.
He is very well aware that his party has to appeal to a much wider proportion of the voting public.
That is just the reality.
Didn't Macron try to do something radical with the pension age and got something of a kicking.
Modern politics in the UK and I get the impression in so many other countries is run by pretty awful grey politicians. No character and lacking in morale standards.
But I am afraid that the old saying is still true.
You get the government you deserve.
Macron did what many governments for years in France have tried to do which is to bring the pension age in line with the modern world. He had the guts to follow through with it. Voted for Macron and would vote for him again if he could run. The problem France has is the morons in opposition like Mélenchon and Le Pen who are populists and are of no substance, one far left and one far right and never the twain shall meet. Fortunately neither of them have got to power, thus far. That would really be a disaster if anyone like them got into power.
Thats what politics is nowadays.
" the party X in power is shit, vote against them voting for us"
Is not about voting for but voting against. Because all politi al parties are shit
" the party X in power is shit, vote against them voting for us"
Is not about voting for but voting against. Because all politi al parties are shit
I’m voting Starmer because he’s the competent option of the two.
One is currently, actively bleeding this country dry and has been for 13yrs. Hospitals, libraries, sure start programs, all closed down. The basic tenets and covenants of being in government are not being met.
I believe Starmer would take the office of Prime Minister more seriously than any of the last 3 PMs and any member of the current cabinet.
I believe Starmer would TRY to have the government commit to its purpose, within the economic framework we’re in right now.
I believe, with his Shadow Cabinet, that there are enough honest politicians to TRY to implement policies they’ve laid out (FSM extensions etc).
I believe that Starmer would implement tougher windfall taxes on oil companies to stop them gouging us, because he and the entire Party have been calling for it for over a year.
I believe he would TRY to make his government work for people, not just HIS people like Sunak, Truss, Johnson, May and Cameron have done.
And I don’t k or how people can’t see that.
I’d highly recommend the episode of Full Disclosure that James O’Brien did with him, you get a much better look at his as a person.
Bodes well for the GE dunnit?
Yvette Cooper was ‘not told’ about Labour’s Sunak attack ad in advance
Shadow home secretary was not consulted about the widely criticised advert that claims Rishi Sunak did not believe in jailing child abusers
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...told-about-labours-sunak-attack-ad-in-advance
Yvette Cooper was ‘not told’ about Labour’s Sunak attack ad in advance
Shadow home secretary was not consulted about the widely criticised advert that claims Rishi Sunak did not believe in jailing child abusers
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...told-about-labours-sunak-attack-ad-in-advance
Absolutely. £58.8bn is an unimaginably large sum of money, whether it was stolen or only lost. How is it not the number one discussion topic? What a world.
"£58.8bn could have:
- built X number of hospitals
- trained & employed Y number of nurses / doctors / teachers / paramedics etc
- funded Z number of community youth hubs
...but the Tories used a pandemic to funnel this to friends via VIP lanes"
You could use it for almost any sector and it would hit home.
On another note, I spotted as I was walking my dog this morning, a house in the entrance to our estate has a Tory Council election pamphlet in their window...I wanted to throw a fecking brick through it!
- built X number of hospitals
- trained & employed Y number of nurses / doctors / teachers / paramedics etc
- funded Z number of community youth hubs
...but the Tories used a pandemic to funnel this to friends via VIP lanes"
You could use it for almost any sector and it would hit home.
On another note, I spotted as I was walking my dog this morning, a house in the entrance to our estate has a Tory Council election pamphlet in their window...I wanted to throw a fecking brick through it!
Regardless of the 2 party system. It does not mean happiness will play any part of the Tories getting in for another 5 years. Would be more disappointment in what has happened to the Labour party.
I can't endorse Starmers lies with a vote right now. I'm hoping things will change, but equally I currently have little to no faith in Starmers leadership bringing about positive change. We've been here before with Blair in the 2000s.
To be honest I don't demand a radical shift to the left from Starmer. But I do demand honesty. Do you recall his 10 pledges?
She probably went back to the office and printed off another 200 copies and then headed back to the bridge with a jug of gravy.
Good lord this is maddening. Properly insane.
If there's an ad slagging off disabled people she'll be right in there.
She probably copied the copies so she had 102,400 copies and then headed back to the bridge and pulled out her Tory cock and sprayed Tory wank juice all over the paper and then ate the paper covered in Tory wank juice then pulled out her backup Tory cock and sprayed backup Tory wank juice all over some poor people and then ate them too, the fecking gowl.
I do, and I completely understand resentment about it, but just look at what's across the isle! Just in the last two weeks we've seen nonsense about storing refugees in barges, confirmation that we don't have a safe & legal route from Iran, Attenborough confirming not one river in England is considered clean, Home Office having to admit their biggest claim about immigrants was a lie, that MP getting stung being willing to sell white papers to a fictional gambling company. It goes on and on and on and on and on.....
I see on a daily basis what 13yrs of Tory rule has done to this country and I genuinely fear that the country will not survive as we know it if they win in 2024. So if it's a battle between the guy who's lied recently and the party who lie like others breathe, I take the lesser of the evils.
Do I have great faith that they'll do a good job, not really. To be honest the economic position we're currently in will make that nearly impossible, but the Tories have broken everything in this country! And I'm desperate for that to stop!
I think you also greatly underestimate the good that Blair did for the country in terms of access to higher education, minimum wage, sure starts etc (yeah I know)...
Your version of ‘not endorsing’ Starmer for his lies will tacitly and implicitly endorse the Tories and theirs, which spread higher and farther than Starmer’s by a country mile! If the Tories haven’t done enough over the last 13yrs for you to want to boot every last one of them out of the office and let the chips fall where they may, then you’re a glutton for punishment and I can’t help you.
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That’s classic Coffey that is
The thing is alot of your argument is based on again reasons to not vote tory rather than reasons to vote Starmer. For example:
- Paragraph 2 applicable to any potential labour leader and most opposition party leader.
- Paragraph 3 same as above.
- Paragraph 4 based on a belief. Surely you believe corbyn would have done that too? Or Lib Dems? Or Greens? Again most partys and party leaders.
Anyway without sounding like a broken record. It is all very much just beliefs on what we think. And that's exactly where we all are. Playing this guessing game of thinking rather than knowing.
A good leader in my opinion should first and foremost be able to articulate a clear plan and message to his target audience. We still have no idea where Starmer stands. He's like a sea-saw.
A year ago he's quoted speaking to a Lgbt charity about how he's supporting trans rights and stuff. A year later he's contradicting himself.
A year ago he's quoted saying he's supportive of cannabis reforms. The next year he's saying the smell of cannabis is destroying lives and that his focus is on anti social behaviour suddenly. A real non problem in the Current state of affairs.
Even the Gary Linekar stuff they were very hush hush and on the fence. Even the female mp on Question Time that week was criticising the language he used too. And tbh she didn't speak very well at all, she wasn't very sharp. But anyway it was only after the public backlash to Linekar being suspended that Starmer finally took a public stance.
I know someone quoted me earlier laughing at me talking about the election after next. But unfortunately if you actually want to be able to implement radical reforms then there's only so much which can be achieved in 5 years. And it's going to take alot longer than 5 years to fix this current sorry state of affairs.
Given the current economic climate, unless things radically change by 2025, whoever takes over is going to be taking over a shit show. Once cornavirus and brexit happened I actually thought labour losing in 2019 may have been a blessing in disguise. Because things were evidently going to get worse and no matter how well Labour could have managed it, people would still point back to "but it was better in 2018" or "everything went to shit when labour took over" and they'd likely get kicked out next election.
If you think back to 2010, the main driver for labour losing the election was the global recession. However the UK tabloids towed the "labour can't be trusted with the economy" line and thus labour lost the election. Had the recession never happened then things may have been very different.
So considering the current economic climate we're in and that things may very well need to get worse before they get better. I think for me that we need a leader that is willing to try and make those radical changes. Not one who is focused on graffiti and refusing to support the "militant unions".
With all the above said, I'd still rather explore Starmers labour over another tory flavour. But it would be very much so to keep torys out rather than buying into Starmers vision. Have to say though I do like a bit of Raynor and her potty mouth. The more I think about it she's kind of one of those under rated sexy not sexy kind of people. I would.
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When we’re 18 months away from a GE and there’s no manifesto then you have to go through what you THINK a Party would do.
Yes I believed Corbyn would do the same which is why I voted for him in ‘17 and ‘19.
No I don’t believe Lib Dem / Greens etc would do the same because they’re not Parties that could ever have a majority in the current voting system.
I’ll say this, fundamentally we agree entirely on where we SHOULD be going and the type of leader we would prefer to have but, fundamentally when the current government is actively destroying the integrity of most institutions, I’ll take general competency over a pipe dream.
And that's OK! It's OK to vote against something, not everything has to be a vote for a vision. First and foremost, I will be voting to kick the Tories OUT. We will see what his labour party is like when it is in power.
Nobody is saying it isn't OK. I probably dislike the Conservative party more than most members on here. I will however hold labour to the same standards and will be just as critical of them as and where I see fit. Criticising Starmer shouldn't be seen as supporting Torys.