Westminster Politics

Do what Blair did. You find policies that appeal to all voters. He was a breath of fresh air in 97 and said what both sides wanted to hear.

I think modern day Britain is crying out for a party like that. Bring it back from the extremes of left and right. Some people will vote Tory/Labour until the day they die, but millions will vote on issues that mean something to them.

For example, the woman in the video. Forget that she is probably a lost cause, but what about a party that comes along and says we are not going to rejoin the EU (a free hit, since the EU wouldn't have us back) but we are also not going to forcibly deport kids to Rwanda? Maybe she would get on board with that.

I understand what you’re saying but, unfortunately, refusing to send kids to Rwanda is probably not very popular with those on the right anyway. Do you think the right votes for someone who comes out and says that they need to spend more money and work closer with European allies to fix the root cause? I don’t. They want all the money spent on ships patrolling the channel and feck every other country effected. How do you find centre ground there?
 
The woman in the video is not "dragable", he has swallowed the Daily Mail manipulation hook, line and sinker. Why would other potential listeners who are not as thick as her take the insult personally? They are not the ones that are being made fun of by Purkiss. If they consider themselves insulted by that, how were they winnable in the first place?

She potentially is draggable. There are literal neo-nazis and Islamic fundamentalists who have been 'dragged'.

Again, I have to say, I think you're having the debate you think Im trying to have. I'm not talking about the general population in this instance or how other potential listeners would potentially react. I'm not doing the general 'you've got to listen to bigoted people and give them a voice otherwise they'll just get more extreme'. I'm talking about how you interact with an individual person and try to bring them across to your way of thinking. Which is fundamentally what democracy is supposed to be about.

You have unfortunately done it again there though with the stupidity. Who are 'not as thick as her'. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people are incredibly stupid. Either academically or when it comes to things like this or both. Yet they exist. You either try to find a way to win over those votes (preferably by selling your message in an inspiring way) or you somehow exclude those people from politics altogether.
 
Out of interest, has writing off entire sections of society and not even making an attempt at 'winning them over' ever been a winning political strategy, when it comes to making political change? Whether incremental or drastic?

Well yes as it's what the Tories do every single time and it works tremendously for them. They're not stupid enough to think they have to appeal to everyone on every issue.
 
Well yes as it's what the Tories do every single time and it works tremendously for them. They're not stupid enough to think they have to appeal to everyone on every issue.

Do the Tories call vast swathes of the population stupid for disagreeing with them on certain positions? Beyond incredibly nebulous pointless terms like 'North London wokerati'? They're incredibly good at picking on vulnerable, politically non-powerful groups and pitting people against each other to hide the fact they're robbing us dry. They're helped in doing so by a stupid and archaic political system and a complicit media.

Working against such a stacked deck, immediately jumping to calling people stupid who say stupid shit is not a good political strategy.
 
The Labour position on unions to trans rights seems to be bringing two groups of people who are opposed into a room, then magic happens and the problem goes away, somehow.

Except one of the groups is dedicated to the abolition or destruction of the other, and the other side are encouraged to compromise.
 
What's the point in HS2 if it's not even going to stop in central London? Why are we wasting billions on a train line no one in the North wants or needs.
1) Punt shitloads of money into a project
2) Make sure friends get contracts
3) Turn a blind eye when friends skim millions off the top of said contracts
4) Claim the project a success, ignore and deflect criticism
5) Announce another project
 
Out of interest, has writing off entire sections of society and not even making an attempt at 'winning them over' ever been a winning political strategy, when it comes to making political change? Whether incremental or drastic?
The Tories write off the majority of the population every election, they're just good at hiding it.
 
I understand what you’re saying but, unfortunately, refusing to send kids to Rwanda is probably not very popular with those on the right anyway. Do you think the right votes for someone who comes out and says that they need to spend more money and work closer with European allies to fix the root cause? I don’t. They want all the money spent on ships patrolling the channel and feck every other country effected. How do you find centre ground there?

You find something they feel even more strongly about and appeal to that.

I know for sure that there are plenty of elderly Tory voters who would seriously consider switching if Labour came out and abolished inheritance tax (it's only good for about 7 billion anyway), even if they also opened a moving walkway direct from the Middle East.
 
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Everyone remembers Brown and the 'horrible bigoted woman' episode though. She most likely was but it was damaging and whether we like it or not, there are millions of people like this and everyone's vote counts the same.
This is the part that pisses me off. Apparently you can demand that people stay at home, alone, during lockdown whilst having big parties in your own gaff. You can cost people public funds by refusing to pay tax yourself. You can set up shell corps so you and your family can steal money from taxpayers through dodgy government projects - money which could have been spent improving their public services. You can create a culture and class war and then accuse others of doing it. You can have all your bills and rent paid for you by the same taxpayers, who are struggling with the cost of living, and say they need to just budget better.

You can feck over people again and again, but don't you dare call them a rude name because THAT will be the thing that puts them off voting for you.
 
You find something they feel even more strongly about and appeal to that.

I know for sure that there are plenty of elderly Tory voters who would seriously consider switching if Labour came out and abolished inheritance tax (it's only good for about 7 billion anyway), even if they also opened a moving walkway direct from the Middle East.
Yeah that’s just what Labour need to do, make a major move towards maintaining the concentration of wealth by removing a mechanism for redistributing wealth when a person dies.
 
This is the part that pisses me off. Apparently you can demand that people stay at home, alone, during lockdown whilst having big parties in your own gaff. You can cost people public funds by refusing to pay tax yourself. You can set up shell corps so you and your family can steal money from taxpayers through dodgy government projects - money which could have been spent improving their public services. You can create a culture and class war and then accuse others of doing it. You can have all your bills and rent paid for you by the same taxpayers, who are struggling with the cost of living, and say they need to just budget better.

You can feck over people again and again, but don't you dare call them a rude name because THAT will be the thing that puts them off voting for you.
Yeah a bs piece in the mail jumping on a Labour MP saying we should have a better relationship with our biggest trading partner will piss people off, yet they'll shrug at the story next to it about £15bn of useless PPE now costing £23m a month to store.
Fecking Andrew Tate has ruined Matrix references, but it is a form of mass psychosis.
 
Do the Tories call vast swathes of the population stupid for disagreeing with them on certain positions? Beyond incredibly nebulous pointless terms like 'North London wokerati'? They're incredibly good at picking on vulnerable, politically non-powerful groups and pitting people against each other to hide the fact they're robbing us dry. They're helped in doing so by a stupid and archaic political system and a complicit media.

Working against such a stacked deck, immediately jumping to calling people stupid who say stupid shit is not a good political strategy.

No, they call them traitors, non-believers. Don't listen to experts , they might know what they're talking about. They treat people like idiots and they comply. Don't you find that insulting to your intelligence? Media is stacked against them. But everybody's too scared to stand up to them, including Starmer.
 
Yeah a bs piece in the mail jumping on a Labour MP saying we should have a better relationship with our biggest trading partner will piss people off, yet they'll shrug at the story next to it about £15bn of useless PPE now costing £23m a month to store.
Fecking Andrew Tate has ruined Matrix references, but it is a form of mass psychosis.
Political apathy is why we desperately need free and fair journalism. Some folk don't even need to be told what to think, like you point out it's just about what they're told in the first place (and how it's told). For many people, journalism is their only avenue into society and what they know about it. If the Mail is angry at something then they're angry at something.

It's why you get zero coverage on so much, and then a twenty page analysis of why Brexit/HS2/NHS Privatisation/Expelling British Nationals will be the best thing ever. And now we have arguably the most politically active generation in decades pushing for social, humanitary and environmental change, only for them to be ridiculed for it every time by the same folk who will happily beat a loud whenever they want to force how people think.
 
Do the Tories call vast swathes of the population stupid for disagreeing with them on certain positions? Beyond incredibly nebulous pointless terms like 'North London wokerati'? They're incredibly good at picking on vulnerable, politically non-powerful groups and pitting people against each other to hide the fact they're robbing us dry. They're helped in doing so by a stupid and archaic political system and a complicit media.

Working against such a stacked deck, immediately jumping to calling people stupid who say stupid shit is not a good political strategy.

Is that a serious question? Come off it the Tories make no attempt to hide their disdain for a substantial portion of the electorate week in week out. You can obfuscate and narrow your point as much as you want but the answer to your original question is a clear yes.

The whole point here isn't even around MPs treating others as stupid but Labour supporters. So let's extend that to the wider Tory support base and media and ask if they treat people with disdain?

They don't do centrism and they routinely win by doing the opposite, focus policy on your base and bring the others needed to win by controlling the message.

Not only do they manage to win they've also managed to make Labour move closer to their position repeatedly over the years.

Yet people get in a huff about disparging remarks about an obvious idiot and then we have others suggesting Labour should scrap IHT. Just madness.
 
The money these MPs are making from second jobs is astonishing. Millions.

That’s on top of an £85k salary plus the mountains of expenses we know they claim.

How on earth do they have the time for a second job on top of that? Is being an MP that easy there’s enough downtime to pick up such side earners?

Disgusting.
 
The money these MPs are making from second jobs is astonishing. Millions.

That’s on top of an £85k salary plus the mountains of expenses we know they claim.

How on earth do they have the time for a second job on top of that? Is being an MP that easy there’s enough downtime to pick up such side earners?

Disgusting.

They're only MP's so they can affect policy for the people that line their pockets. Any illusion of them being anything other than that has long since disappeared. But let's hear what Kath in Yorkshire thinks...
 
She potentially is draggable. There are literal neo-nazis and Islamic fundamentalists who have been 'dragged'.

Again, I have to say, I think you're having the debate you think Im trying to have. I'm not talking about the general population in this instance or how other potential listeners would potentially react. I'm not doing the general 'you've got to listen to bigoted people and give them a voice otherwise they'll just get more extreme'. I'm talking about how you interact with an individual person and try to bring them across to your way of thinking. Which is fundamentally what democracy is supposed to be about.

You have unfortunately done it again there though with the stupidity. Who are 'not as thick as her'. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people are incredibly stupid. Either academically or when it comes to things like this or both. Yet they exist. You either try to find a way to win over those votes (preferably by selling your message in an inspiring way) or you somehow exclude those people from politics altogether.
Nah, democracy is absolutely not about convincing individuals. I'm afraid we're not going to agree on anything at all, so let's leave it here. Cheers!
 
They might win two terms but England is just too right wing for them to form a long term government. The Tories will always out perform them 3 or 4 to 1.
Unless they bite the bullet and move to PR.
 
Nah, democracy is absolutely not about convincing individuals. I'm afraid we're not going to agree on anything at all, so let's leave it here. Cheers!

Yes I'm afraid if we can't agree on that, then we are talking at total cross purposes so agreed best to leave it there. Appreciate a civil conversation!
 
The money these MPs are making from second jobs is astonishing. Millions.

That’s on top of an £85k salary plus the mountains of expenses we know they claim.

How on earth do they have the time for a second job on top of that? Is being an MP that easy there’s enough downtime to pick up such side earners?

Disgusting.

Its honestly sickening. The thing is some of it makes sense in theory (ie allowing the Northern MPs to have a base in London for national business) but the way which it has been abused is ridiculous. There is no need for an MP from many of the home counties to have a 2nd home in London, as well as all the expenses they take. I'd rip up the whole system and move them on up to Birmingham while we're at it. And massively limit the amount they can claim on expenses.
 
Is that a serious question? Come off it the Tories make no attempt to hide their disdain for a substantial portion of the electorate week in week out. You can obfuscate and narrow your point as much as you want but the answer to your original question is a clear yes.

The whole point here isn't even around MPs treating others as stupid but Labour supporters. So let's extend that to the wider Tory support base and media and ask if they treat people with disdain?

They don't do centrism and they routinely win by doing the opposite, focus policy on your base and bring the others needed to win by controlling the message.

Not only do they manage to win they've also managed to make Labour move closer to their position repeatedly over the years.

Yet people get in a huff about disparging remarks about an obvious idiot and then we have others suggesting Labour should scrap IHT. Just madness.

Yes it is a very serious question. What exactly do you think I'm trying to obfuscate?

I totally agree that many of the Tory support base show total disdain for many others in the country, particularly the disenfranchised and politically weak. Unfortunately those groups do not hold much political sway and the nature of our ridiculous political system means

Again, I wasn't talking about actual political policy so not sure where this bit about centrism or not centrism has come in. Have whatever policy you want but to actually win (especially in a system like the UK where its rigged to support one party essentially), you need to convince people of your message. Unfortunately, the Labour Party/Lib Dems/Greens whoever need to work harder to do so in the UK than the Tories do. I hate that this is the case but is sadly is.

Hopefully, at some point, someone has the foresight to change FPTP so that I don't have to see the likes of Cameron/May/Johnson/Truss/Sunak again.
 
That's what they need to do but I don't think they will.
I’m all for it but apparently it does increase the likelihood you end up with ungovernable minorities or coalitions at the behest of a few extreme characters who are propping them up.

In other countries that have PR the democracy matures with it and the electorate naturally adjusts their voting behaviour to accommodate it.The worry is that it would cause a lot of instability in a country like Britain that is so entrenched in its ways and has had FPTP for basically ever.
 
I’m all for it but apparently it does increase the likelihood you end up with ungovernable minorities or coalitions at the behest of a few extreme characters who are propping them up.

In other countries that have PR the democracy matures with it and the electorate naturally adjusts their voting behaviour to accommodate it. The worry is that it would cause a lot of instability in a country like Britain that is so entrenched in its ways and has had FPTP for basically ever.

The tories are proving that stability went out the window with brexit. At least under PR, you won't see a single party holding near absolute power enabling them to loot the country. And not even try to do it subtly.
 
Yeah that’s just what Labour need to do, make a major move towards maintaining the concentration of wealth by removing a mechanism for redistributing wealth when a person dies.

IHT contributes a miniscule amount to the treasury. Swapping it for a wealth tax would be far more effective.
 
It just shows how weak he is. He’s spread so thin making promises to so many people to prop him up as a PM, when it comes to these sorts of issues he has no political capital and no authority. By continuing to back Zahawi he’s upsetting more voters, upsetting some within his party, making himself look weak, further eroding any trust that remains in the Tory party and further confirming their reputation as a rabble of corrupt crony’s. The rot has very much set in, we’ve just got to hope we’ve got the democracy to get rid of then.
 
IHT contributes a miniscule amount to the treasury. Swapping it for a wealth tax would be far more effective.
I would have both. Don't like the term wealth tax though, has connotations of envy and negativity. Labour's old 'unearned income' was a good one, need something like that referring to assets, but I'm not clever enough to think of it.