Westminster Politics

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golden_blunder said:
When they are genuine. You could argue that politics contains a lot of spinning of meaning of words, to suit a parties own agenda
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Oh yeah that goes without saying, but we've entered the realm of words literally meaning nothing, or the meaning still standing but the audience not knowing (wilful ignorance or actual ignorance) what that meaning is.
It's precisely why things like woke, cancel culture & political correctness have just become a catchall for a variety of issues just to rile people up.
 
I don't want to be part of a pile-on here. It must take some strength of conviction to openly support right wing values these days.

But I have to pick up on the fact that a right winger wants to be right wing, but feels that it can be seperated from cronyism and corruption. That's quite amazing isn't it? I mean, what else do you expect to get when you are funded by big business?

And good luck selling the type of shit the tories have been shovelling, without a bought press and major financial backing.
 
Flying high said:
I don't want to be part of a pile-on here. It must take some strength of conviction to openly support right wing values these days.

But I have to pick up on the fact that a right winger wants to be right wing, but feels that it can be seperated from cronyism and corruption. That's quite amazing isn't it? I mean, what else do you expect to get when you are funded by big business?

And good luck selling the type of shit the tories have been shovelling, without a bought press and major financial backing.
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That's one of the key points though, that the Tories no longer seem to represent a 'wing' of people. Classic right-wing ideology (individualism, small government, free market, low regulation, low tax) has been completely overtaken by globalisation and market forces that are cross-continental. They can no longer act in ways that they classically would, which was seen when Truss blew a £30bn hole in our economy.

You then look at the infrastructure of the country, and there too you can't see what they stand for (apart from deporting people with brown skin to Rwanda):
- Building affordable housing - never hit a housing target recently so they've just scrapped them
- Law and order - conviction rates for even lesser crimes are at horrifically low levels, the CPS is about ready to collapse
- Low tax - we're at our highest tax burden in decades
- Fiscal responsibility - borrowing is through the roof and the last PM blew a £30m hole in the country's economy and they lost billions during the pandemic (Mone will be the tip of the iceberg)
- Leveling up - child poverty is on the rise
- Healthcare - 12yrs of cuts leading to the NHS ready to collapse

So what do they actually represent, apart from hating immigrants and siphoning money to donors
 
Flying high said:
I don't want to be part of a pile-on here. It must take some strength of conviction to openly support right wing values these days.

But I have to pick up on the fact that a right winger wants to be right wing, but feels that it can be seperated from cronyism and corruption. That's quite amazing isn't it? I mean, what else do you expect to get when you are funded by big business?

And good luck selling the type of shit the tories have been shovelling, without a bought press and major financial backing.
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A right wing system doesn't have to be riddled with cronyism and corruption - contracts can be fairly tendered etc...It's just down to human nature, like how those at the top in communist regimes live far better than the masses and you have rampant black markets and so forth.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
That's one of the key points though, that the Tories no longer seem to represent a 'wing' of people. Classic right-wing ideology (individualism, small government, free market, low regulation, low tax) has been completely overtaken by globalisation and market forces that are cross-continental. They can no longer act in ways that they classically would, which was seen when Truss blew a £30bn hole in our economy.

You then look at the infrastructure of the country, and there too you can't see what they stand for (apart from deporting people with brown skin to Rwanda):
- Building affordable housing - never hit a housing target recently so they've just scrapped them
- Law and order - conviction rates for even lesser crimes are at horrifically low levels, the CPS is about ready to collapse
- Low tax - we're at our highest tax burden in decades
- Fiscal responsibility - borrowing is through the roof and the last PM blew a £30m hole in the country's economy and they lost billions during the pandemic (Mone will be the tip of the iceberg)
- Leveling up - child poverty is on the rise
- Healthcare - 12yrs of cuts leading to the NHS ready to collapse

So what do they actually represent, apart from hating immigrants and siphoning money to donors
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We've had 43 years of right wing government, with 13 years of maybe-a-bit-left-but-also-quite-right-wing in the middle. Certainly they've had the last 12 years to 'fix' anything new labour did. We are a full tory country. They were even given brexit to do what they wanted with it. This is the destination. There really isn't much left to sell. So if they no longer have a wing of people, who the hell keeps voting for them?
 
Flying high said:
We've had 43 years of right wing government, with 13 years of maybe-a-bit-left-but-also-quite-right-wing in the middle. Certainly they've had the last 12 years to 'fix' anything new labour did. We are a full tory country. They were even given brexit to do what they wanted with it. This is the destination. There really isn't much left to sell. So if they no longer have a wing of people, who the hell keeps voting for them?
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More people did not vote in 2019 than voted for the Tories. Under FPTP you only need to convince around a third of the total voting pool.

There are still millions of people wealthy enough not to be directly impacted by many of these issues, which may explain a lot.

Oh and don't forget the Tory Election Act which has disenfranchised millions of potential left leaning voters. That's going to help some.
 
finneh said:
Again I'm happy to hear any argument as to how this government are very right wing. Record net migration, record taxation, record public expenditure, record budget deficit, unprecendented intervention in free markets, unprecendented social programs.

All I've seen so far is effectively "I don't like this, therefore it must be right wing", however ultimately very, very few people like the direction of this government. Very few people like cronyism, very few people like corruption, very few people like waste, very few people like mismanagement, very few people like rhetoric without results and very few people like public services crumbing (irrespective of spend).
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You’ve only seen that because you only pay attention to the things you want to, and fit inside your narrow frameworks, which leads to narrow and circular discussions that often have little to do with reality and more to do with imaginary concepts.

For example in the article posted by @F-Red, you were quick to notice that Liz Truss’ government had moved further to the right, but somehow overlooked the fact that they started off on the right, too. That’s based on a consensus of political scientists, taken during Johnson’s time. As far over as AfD, a party no-one would even consider describing as anything other than right wing.

Of course you can move the goalposts to “very right wing”, now, but that wasn’t where the discussion started. Some Tory donor said they were centre left, and people thought it was ridiculous. There’s good reason for that. That’s not a lazy, anti-right wing reflexive response. That’s not based on people conflating labels.

There are many things that you could argue have been conflated in your arguments - namely, exceptional economic policies delivered in exceptional circumstances, the kinds of policies you didn’t like, broadly deployed by left and right wing governments - but like you said, those economic discussions don’t tend to get anywhere useful.
 
UK government pledges up to £4.5bn to fund Bulb takeover by Octopus

Support comes on top of £1.1bn paid to handle collapsed energy firm’s administration costs

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/21/uk-government-fund-bulb-takeover-octopus

The UK government has committed to provide up to £4.5bn to fund the takeover of the collapsed energy company Bulb by its rival Octopus.

Bulb spent more than a year in a state-handled administration and its 1.5 million customers transferred to Octopus on Tuesday night.


The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said the cost could be up to £4.5bn to fund Bulb’s operations under Octopus ownership until the end of March, depending on the movement of energy prices.

The government said it would also provide the company with a cash injection and cover any compensation that may occur “as a result of Bulb’s actions prior to the transfer”.

The support is on top of the £1.1bn paid to handle Bulb’s administration. This is expected to rise because of wind-down costs for the administrator, Teneo.

The Office for Budget Responsibility, an independently run but government-backed forecaster, has previously said the costs of the Bulb collapse could reach £6.5bn for the Treasury.

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Privatise profits. Socialise losses. And apparently no money for nurses and ambulance drivers.
 
Jippy said:
A right wing system doesn't have to be riddled with cronyism and corruption - contracts can be fairly tendered etc...It's just down to human nature, like how those at the top in communist regimes live far better than the masses and you have rampant black markets and so forth.
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It's true, both systems have to deal with the same human nature problems, to a degree. I choose the option without the bloated, metronomic vehicles for infusing said corruption through all facets of society, though.

But what does a real right wing government look like without being bought?

Does a 'real' right wing government care enough to make sure everybody gets a geniunely respectable level of living? Housing, nutrition, education, healthcare and freedom? Because these are the most important aspects of society to me. If, as I know some of them claim, they agree, then what are we supposed to call the tories and their voters if not right wing? Because they've been pretty open about their fukk-you intentions for some time now.
 
Flying high said:
It's true, both systems have to deal with the same human nature problems, to a degree. I choose the option without the bloated, metronomic vehicles for infusing said corruption through all facets of society, though.

But what does a real right wing government look like without being bought?

Does a 'real' right wing government care enough to make sure everybody gets a geniunely respectable level of living? Housing, nutrition, education, healthcare and freedom? Because these are the most important aspects of society to me. If, as I know some of them claim, they agree, then what are we supposed to call the tories and their voters if not right wing? Because they've been pretty open about their fukk-you intentions for some time now.
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That's where the textbook of the right wingers' small state with low taxes meets the realities of British society head on and it doesn't work. Most Brits do car about housing, education and healthcare.

You can see why Tories are disenfranchised from the party, given as finneh said its massive ineptitude and failings in key traditional areas like crime and immigration, and taxes at record high. It's clearly folly to claim the party has lurched to the left though, given its policy agenda. If you're including the state pension increase under the triple lock as a socialist economic policy that would be laughable, given it's to appease the base of Tory support.
 
RedChip said:
Choice is ridiculously overrated. Do people even want that much choice in the basics in life? I mean I can't even be bothered to choose jeans.
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I had an 18 year old patient a few weeks ago who was insistent (and quite obnoxious about it) about going private. She did so and while waiting for a bed to become available on our private wing, she and her mum were very vocal about how they'd managed to snag this amazing doctor and they couldnt wait....only for me to find out that his normal specialty is care of the elderly. Not sure people are always as smart with choices as they think they are....

As for finneh, seems a nice enough guy and good luck to you and your wife but putting aside left vs right for a second, he's clearly quite far along on the libertarian scale, at least economically. He couches it as better for everyone but think it would probably solve a lot of discussions if he just admitted (as he kind of has done here) that he's very well off and as a result, wants to essentially exclude himself from most others, without ultimately that much of a worry about what's happening to those less well off.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...cuts-energy-bills-soar?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Wonder what the free market will do about this.
 
Very irritating looking at the government narrative being presented at the current NHS strike action.

Yes they are asking for 19% and it’s quite obvious that they don’t expect to get that much in the current climate.

What people need to understand though is that this is ALL the Conservative governments doing.

Over the past 12 years they have continually frozen public sector pay or awarded derisory amounts still below standard inflation of the time. The result of this is that pay has dwindled in real terms year after year. This has been happening well before COVID, Ukraine and the current cost of living crisis.

This is why things are such a mess and figures like 19% being thrown about. Had they committed to at least awarding fair pay each year of the last 12 then this point wouldn’t have been reached.

Sadly the vast majority of the general public don’t care when they see Police, NHS or the Fire Service getting mugged off each year. It’s only when they see strike action that has an impact on them that they take note.
 
TheReligion said:
Very irritating looking at the government narrative being presented at the current NHS strike action.

Yes they are asking for 19% and it’s quite obvious that they don’t expect to get that much in the current climate.

What people need to understand though is that this is ALL the Conservative governments doing.

Over the past 12 years they have continually frozen public sector pay or awarded derisory amounts still below standard inflation of the time. The result of this is that pay has dwindled in real terms year after year. This has been happening well before COVID, Ukraine and the current cost of living crisis.

This is why things are such a mess and figures like 19% being thrown about. Had they committed to at least awarding fair pay each year of the last 12 then this point wouldn’t have been reached.

Sadly the vast majority of the general public don’t care when they see Police, NHS or the Fire Service getting mugged off each year. It’s only when they see strike action that has an impact on them that they take note.
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https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staf...arly-next-year-in-bid-to-end-strikes-12773009

What a ridiculous state of affairs.
You cannot have a pay rise this year because it is not only unaffordable, but will increase inflation.
But if we rush through the Pay Review Body early next year, at the earliest date possible, we can give you a pay rise... and might even backdate it.
 
Buster15 said:
https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staf...arly-next-year-in-bid-to-end-strikes-12773009

What a ridiculous state of affairs.
You cannot have a pay rise this year because it is not only unaffordable, but will increase inflation.
But if we rush through the Pay Review Body early next year, at the earliest date possible, we can give you a pay rise... and might even backdate it.
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Absolutely bizarre considering they won’t even negotiate now hence these strikes happening.

When will people see this lot for what they are?

And for the record I wouldn’t trust them with this for that matter.
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gets-new-swing-voter-middle-aged-mortgage-man

Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’

Rob Ford, professor of Political Science at Manchester University, describes this archetypical voter as male, 50 years old, without a university degree but with a decent job in the private sector and, crucially, a homeowner with a mortgage. This person almost certainly voted Leave, Ford added, explaining Labour’s insistence that it will not take the UK back into the single market.


Hail middle-aged mortgage man. His name wouldn't be Gordon Bennett or Jesus Christ by any chance.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...gets-new-swing-voter-middle-aged-mortgage-man

Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’

Rob Ford, professor of Political Science at Manchester University, describes this archetypical voter as male, 50 years old, without a university degree but with a decent job in the private sector and, crucially, a homeowner with a mortgage. This person almost certainly voted Leave, Ford added, explaining Labour’s insistence that it will not take the UK back into the single market.


Hail middle-aged mortgage man. His name wouldn't be Gordon Bennett or Jesus Christ by any chance.
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Starmer is a genius Paul.

Check out this genuine paragraph about him in the following story:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-labours-past-walk-into-keir-starmers-cabinet

Not much of this keeps Starmer up at night. “I think there are people who spend a lot of time thinking about ‘who owes who what’ and who fecked over who,” said one shadow minister. “And one of the best things about Keir is he is totally oblivious because he came to politics after all that.”
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Sunak government threatens to block Scottish gender recognition law
UK ministers considering ‘nuclear option’ after MSPs overwhelmingly back bill on transgender rights

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tens-to-block-scottish-gender-recognition-law

Rishi Sunak’s government is threatening to block a new law that would make Scotland the first part of the UK to introduce a self-identification system for people who want to change gender.

In a significant escalation that brings tensions around transgender rights into the constitutional arena, Westminster made clear it would consider a “nuclear option” of blocking the bill from going for royal assent, a move that would enrage supporters of the changes and nationalists.

The Scottish government pledged to “vigorously contest” any such intervention.

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That was quick.
 
Frosty said:
Sunak government threatens to block Scottish gender recognition law
UK ministers considering ‘nuclear option’ after MSPs overwhelmingly back bill on transgender rights

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tens-to-block-scottish-gender-recognition-law

Rishi Sunak’s government is threatening to block a new law that would make Scotland the first part of the UK to introduce a self-identification system for people who want to change gender.

In a significant escalation that brings tensions around transgender rights into the constitutional arena, Westminster made clear it would consider a “nuclear option” of blocking the bill from going for royal assent, a move that would enrage supporters of the changes and nationalists.

The Scottish government pledged to “vigorously contest” any such intervention.

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That was quick.
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Tories and TERFs are scum. No other way of putting it.
 
Imagine that being why they decided they wanted to be independent. So much at stake for the Tories - what if some people's lives were a bit easier, whatever would we do?
 
SNPs playing into Tory hands there a bit. The Tories want that debate as they see it as one that wins them votes. Sad that they're probably correct in that assumption.
 
Frosty said:
Sunak government threatens to block Scottish gender recognition law
UK ministers considering ‘nuclear option’ after MSPs overwhelmingly back bill on transgender rights

https://www.theguardian.com/society...tens-to-block-scottish-gender-recognition-law

Rishi Sunak’s government is threatening to block a new law that would make Scotland the first part of the UK to introduce a self-identification system for people who want to change gender.

In a significant escalation that brings tensions around transgender rights into the constitutional arena, Westminster made clear it would consider a “nuclear option” of blocking the bill from going for royal assent, a move that would enrage supporters of the changes and nationalists.

The Scottish government pledged to “vigorously contest” any such intervention.

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That was quick.
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Picking the culture war whilst creating a constitutional crisis sounds very like the current Tory party.
 
Jericholyte2 said:


Can we call this bottom of the barrel?
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I asked this question months ago. Good to see they put plans in place.

I imagine they are trying to take pressure off the NHS. Total psychopaths.
 
Britain's public should be out on the streets as well to get the cnut tories out of power.

Your country is broken and this is only the start of it.
 
africanspur said:
I had an 18 year old patient a few weeks ago who was insistent (and quite obnoxious about it) about going private. She did so and while waiting for a bed to become available on our private wing, she and her mum were very vocal about how they'd managed to snag this amazing doctor and they couldnt wait....only for me to find out that his normal specialty is care of the elderly. Not sure people are always as smart with choices as they think they are....

As for finneh, seems a nice enough guy and good luck to you and your wife but putting aside left vs right for a second, he's clearly quite far along on the libertarian scale, at least economically. He couches it as better for everyone but think it would probably solve a lot of discussions if he just admitted (as he kind of has done here) that he's very well off and as a result, wants to essentially exclude himself from most others, without ultimately that much of a worry about what's happening to those less well off.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...cuts-energy-bills-soar?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Wonder what the free market will do about this.
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That seems incredibly generous. He's absolutely unhinged. I thought @cafecillos' post a couple of pages ago was spot on.
 
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