Westminster Politics

africanspur said:
That's the point though. They're cnuts but they're there. They may not be allies but they are unquestionably from an ethnic minority, whether they may be happy with that or not.

I agree with some points here and not others. I'm not saying that they're looking up to them as role models. I'm saying they've smashed a ceiling, one that exists in some kids heads as a permanent impenetrable one.

I know one Indian family who's kid (late teens) is incredibly into politics (left wing, let's hope he stays that way) and is incredibly excited for Sunak to become PM. That isn't because he agrees with his policies or because he idiolises him as a man and politician. It's because a brown man, in his country, in a country and continent that is overwhelmingly white Christian, is about to have a Hindu man of south Asian descent as it's pm. Yes he's insanely rich. Yes he's a twat. Yes he's very privileged. But for him, that is a massive step, in a country that even as recently as 20 years ago, would have had only a smattering of ethnic minority PMs across the whole of the Parliament.

Personally, and it's the same for many others like me, I hope he's competent enough to stabilise the shit show we're in and then gets kicked out along with the rest of his party. I and others can think that whilst also acknowledging how important it is for kids of ethnic minorities to grow up in a society where it's normalised to see non white faces in such positions, even if initially those faces are sadly tory.
Click to expand...

But can the same not be said for people who are northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh? Where is our representation at the top level? We don't get PMs from our countries, we barely even get cabinet members from our country.

I don't look at Boris or Trump and feel representsted or that I relate to them. They share the same colour as me but that's a minute part of my identity. If anything I feel I identify and relate more to Barrack Obama than either of them.

The main issue with representation, and particularly within the Conservative Party, is not race but instead class. How many of them have went to the same private schools and colleges at Oxford. How many of them have had parents in powerful positions before them?

I think that's disappointing of your friend to be so excited to have a terrible excuse of a man to be PM just because of his skin colour. For contrast I have alot of friends from British Indian desenct who feel quite the opposite of the prospect of Sunak as PM because they can see past his skin colour.

In contrast look at Jeremy Corbyn and the hype that was created for him within the British grime community which is very multi curtural and where white people would be a minority. They got behind him because he was real and understood their issues and wanted to make radical change. Sunak on the other hand boasts that he has no working class friends and that he can stop money going into working class areas so that it can go to rich White Middle class areas instead.

It's concerning that your friend looks past all of the above though and shows excitement for a new PM because of his skin colour and nothing else.

Edit: In principal I agree with the basis of your argument btw. It's just a shame though that people will try to celebrate this as some progressive move based on someone's skin colour.
That to me says it doesn't matter about how bad the person is or what they've done in the past. They should be celebrated because of the colour of skin they were born with and not through their actions.
And if that's where we are at then that's a dangerous proposition to be in. Because that lowers the bar to the ground where someone simply needs to be a particular colour to be celebrated and everything else means shit all.
 
TheGame said:
Click to expand...

Surely her supporters who put their name down for her but now want her to back down can revoke their endorsements and send her numbers tumbling back down then?

Unless you can't do that and its a once you're in you're in kind of thing.

She seems toast anyway.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Mate, just being there doesn't mean it's a good thing if your policies are terrible.
Click to expand...
I think he has a point. A 10 year old brown kid won't necessarily know what Sunak's policies are or how the cnut got to where he is, but they will see that it's possible for a brown person to become PM of Britain, and that can only be a good thing.

It's absolutely still progress too. I don't think this country's first ethnic minority PM could ever have been anything other than a Tory, but it could potentially open the door to that in the future.
 
Mogget said:
I think he has a point. A 10 year old brown kid won't necessarily know what Sunak's policies are or how the cnut got to where he is, but they will see that it's possible for a brown person to become PM of Britain, and that can only be a good thing.

It's absolutely still progress too. I don't think this country's first ethnic minority PM could ever have been anything other than a Tory, but it could potentially open the door to that in the future.
Click to expand...
No, they will soon realize that if they didn't go to his school or have rich parents that they are still as far away as they were before. It's meaningless.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
But can the same not be said for people who are northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh? Where is our representation at the top level? We don't get PMs from our countries, we barely even get cabinet members from our country.

I don't look at Boris or Trump and feel representsted or that I relate to them. They share the same colour as me but that's a minute part of my identity. If anything I feel I identify and relate more to Barrack Obama than either of them.

The main issue with representation, and particularly within the Conservative Party, is not race but instead class. How many of them have went to the same private schools and colleges at Oxford. How many of them have had parents in powerful positions before them?

I think that's disappointing of your friend to be so excited to have a terrible excuse of a man to be PM just because of his skin colour. For contrast I have alot of friends from British Indian desenct who feel quite the opposite of the prospect of Sunak as PM because they can see past his skin colour.

In contrast look at Jeremy Corbyn and the hype that was created for him within the British grime community which is very multi curtural and where white people would be a minority. They got behind him because he was real and understood their issues and wanted to make radical change. Sunak on the other hand boasts that he has no working class friends and that he can stop money going into working class areas so that it can go to rich White Middle class areas instead.

It's concerning that your friend looks past all of the above though and shows excitement for a new PM because of his skin colour and nothing else.
Click to expand...

I mean yes? There have been multiple PMs from Scotland at the very least, including 2 very recently. Each country also has its own assemblies to some extent. There's never been anyone of colour as British PM.

Of course you wouldn't because white is the default colour on this continent and, to be frank, the world. Why would you feel represented by white people when everyone around you, at every level of society is white and has always been?

I don't think you've really read my post. Why would it be disappointing that my friends' son, who is a teenage boy, is excited to see someone with the same colour skin as him in the highest position in the country, when he grew up with stories of his parents generation receiving trades of racist abuse and having barely imagined someone of south Asian descent could ever even consider such a job.

Not sure why there's been repeated posts by people attacking Sunaks views, as if any of my posts have at any point been supportive of either him or his policies.
 
Maticmaker said:
Agree, but I thought that's how it's always been run? The nature of our unwritten constitution requires each government to start planning for its next term of office halfway through its first term, consequently the long-term consequences are always planned along the lines of 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'... all well and good when the world was a different place but now 'man's footprint' is weighing heavily on the Earth, things must change!

5-year cycles for each GE? When almost every problem facing us is long term, e.g., Climate change, Levelling up, Energy usage, Mass migration issues, etc. Time for a change definitely, but to what?
(But thankfully dodged a bullet with Boris, he can go back to making millions from his book sales)
Click to expand...

It probably always has been but that just seems to be so much more obvious now. I guess that the 24 hour news culture exaggerates it.
And politicians as personalities is another difference.
 
africanspur said:
I mean yes? There have been multiple PMs from Scotland at the very least, including 2 very recently. Each country also has its own assemblies to some extent. There's never been anyone of colour as British PM.

Of course you wouldn't because white is the default colour on this continent and, to be frank, the world. Why would you feel represented by white people when everyone around you, at every level of society is white and has always been?

I don't think you've really read my post. Why would it be disappointing that my friends' son, who is a teenage boy, is excited to see someone with the same colour skin as him in the highest position in the country, when he grew up with stories of his parents generation receiving trades of racist abuse and having barely imagined someone of south Asian descent could ever even consider such a job.

Not sure why there's been repeated posts by people attacking Sunaks views, as if any of my posts have at any point been supportive of either him or his policies.
Click to expand...

And what about Wales and Northern Ireland? Or because we've had white Scottish representation does that mean I "relate to them"? My skin colour makes up a very small part of my identity.

So does that mean you feel represented because most of the top level jobs in society are held by men? And as a man you can relate to them?
I can tell you right now that the colour of someone's skin means next to nothing for me. I judge people by what's beneath the skin.

I have read your post properly. People from my ethnicity also grew up being bombed by the British army and with "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" being commonly displayed on homes in the mainland UK. Just because my skin colour is white doesn't mean I'm immune to racist abuse.
And the reason it's disappointing is because your friends teenage son is being incredibly shallow and judging a man by his skin colour and nothing else, which is racist in itself. Would he celebrate the same for Suella Braverman? A woman who would have been proposing to send his parents to Rwanda had they arrived seeking asylum today.
So yes it is incredibly disappointing that your friends teenage son is suddenly dead excited about a PM on the basis of his skin colour and not the terrible human being he is.
If we judge people solely on their skin colour and not their character then we're being racist and failing as a society.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
If anything I feel I identify and relate more to Barrack Obama than either of them.
Click to expand...
barackobamafistbump.gif
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Of course there are divisions in all countries. There's never going to be everyone agreeing with each other.
There are just so many in the UK. Apart from Brexit and race issues, even each political party seems to have three or four different sections, the Tories and Labour.

I was thinking this morning. If I still lived in the UK I'd definitely want the Tories out as soon as possible. Then I read what Starmer says about immigration and Brexit and various other things.

Then I think there is no hope and pack my bags and leave again. Sad.
Click to expand...

It is good that you are so contented with your new life in France.
 
Mogget said:
I think he has a point. A 10 year old brown kid won't necessarily know what Sunak's policies are or how the cnut got to where he is, but they will see that it's possible for a brown person to become PM of Britain, and that can only be a good thing.

It's absolutely still progress too. I don't think this country's first ethnic minority PM could ever have been anything other than a Tory, but it could potentially open the door to that in the future.
Click to expand...
I think 10 year olds are a bit more switched on that you're giving credit. Also if there brown parents are calling whoever's on TV a cnut, they're probably gonna think they're a cnut.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
No, they will soon realize that if they didn't go to his school or have rich parents that they are still as far away as they were before. It's meaningless.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, this is just not true.

20 years ago, a brown or black person wouldn't have gotten anywhere near high office in the UK (or anywhere across Europe), regardless of what school they went to or how much money they had. The number of ethnic minority mps in the 2001 Parliament was 12 (across the whole Parliament), it's now 65.

Just had a perusal of the 2001 cabinet to remind myself, it's a who's who of old white people, mostly men. In fact, I don't think there was a single ethnic minority in the cabinet in 2001 at all.

That doesn't mean that their policies aren't more aligned to mine than the tory party but it's not exactly difficult to see how a 16 year old Sanjay in 2001 may look at politics and say....probably not for me, I won't be accepted. That can be the case whether Sanjay was educated at the shittest comprehensive or at Eton, Oxbridge and then Harvard, with a billionaire dad. Because that person didn't exist in British politics, essentially at all, let alone in the actual important offices of state.

That is no longer the case, whether those people in the offices of state are cnuts (they are) or whether you happen to agree with them or not (I don't).
 
11101 said:
After the last couple of months the country (economy) needs a period of stability. Calling an election will do the opposite, especially when there are such polarising views on either side now. Whilst I agree the population need to have a say, somebody needs to come in and get things back to normal first for a few months.
Click to expand...
There is no stability in the Tory party. The only way to get stability is to replace them.
 
Yeah Sunak becoming Britain first non white PM is a good thing. The fact he is a Tory doesn’t take anything way from that.


Tbh it always going to happened within the Tory party as the Left in England can at times be very conservative.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
And what about Wales and Northern Ireland? Or because we've had white Scottish representation does that mean I "relate to them"? My skin colour makes up a very small part of my identity.

So does that mean you feel represented because most of the top level jobs in society are held by men? And as a man you can relate to them?
I can tell you right now that the colour of someone's skin means next to nothing for me. I judge people by what's beneath the skin.

I have read your post properly. People from my ethnicity also grew up being bombed by the British army and with "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" being commonly displayed on homes in the mainland UK. Just because my skin colour is white doesn't mean I'm immune to racist abuse.
And the reason it's disappointing is because your friends teenage son is being incredibly shallow and judging a man by his skin colour and nothing else, which is racist in itself. Would he celebrate the same for Suella Braverman? A woman who would have been proposing to send his parents to Rwanda had they arrived seeking asylum today.
So yes it is incredibly disappointing that your friends teenage son is suddenly dead excited about a PM on the basis of his skin colour and not the terrible human being he is.
If we judge people solely on their skin colour and not their character then we're being racist and failing as a society.
Click to expand...

It might make up a very small part of your identity but, to a lot of people from ethnic minority backgrounds, if makes up a significant portion of their identity. That's clear from any conversation you see on here about race.

No I don't feel represented because it's a man but that's because, as a man, I come from the dominant sex. I don't need to feel extra representation as a man because most of those in positions of power, whether politics, finance, business, science, law, sport etc etc etc are men. As I just said above, the 2001 cabinet was all white and majority male. I don't need to feel excited by seeing men in positions of power because that's all I see. A girl growing up might be excited by seeing a woman in a position of power though, especially if she grew up in a setting where that isn't the norm.

I didn't say that you can't experience racism as a white man, so not sure where that's come from? But you said it's disappointing that my friends are excited by him? Not exactly ground breaking news that a teenager doesn't have the depth of thought of an adult is it?

Not sure why you think his parents would have arrived claiming asylum either, they're both professionals but either way, you're getting worked up about something I didn't say and in fact, have actively said the opposite. Even this kid grossly disagrees with Sunak's policies (so nope, he's not judging people solely on the colour of their skin) but can still be excited by someone who looks like him as a major player in British politics, even as he'll vote for another party when he's old enough to vote.

The two are not even close to being mutually exclusive.
 
@africanspur I'd suggest reading about Abdul Rafiq. Just because someone is brown in skin colour it doesn't make them a role model or someone to be celebrated.

You and your friend should be educating his son that while it's great to have a minority in the top position in office, it doesn't mean they're a good person or have the best interests of other minorities at heart.

Lets hope others of Asian descent can look past the tone of his skin and judge him on his past and present. And then decide whether its something to be celebrated.

Women in this country hated Thatcher because she was a cnut and didn't care about the working class. It didn't matter that she was the first woman to hold the highest position in office. She was judged by her character not her gender.
 
Buster15 said:
It is good that you are so contented with your new life in France.
Click to expand...

Definitely one of the best decisions I made.

One day the French electorate may be daft enough to elect someone like Le Pen. But if they did I don't think she'd last long. And there would be hope that people would quickly learn from their mistakes.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
No, they will soon realize that if they didn't go to his school or have rich parents that they are still as far away as they were before. It's meaningless.
Click to expand...
Right now it's absolutely meaningless, yes, but my point is that this is still progression. There's no way Sunak could have been PM 20 years ago, no matter how privileged. Maybe in 20 years time an ethnic minority won't need his privilege or wealth to reach the same position.

Were people really expecting Britain's first ethnic minority PM to be a working class lefty?
 
Mogget said:
I think he has a point. A 10 year old brown kid won't necessarily know what Sunak's policies are or how the cnut got to where he is, but they will see that it's possible for a brown person to become PM of Britain, and that can only be a good thing.

It's absolutely still progress too. I don't think this country's first ethnic minority PM could ever have been anything other than a Tory, but it could potentially open the door to that in the future.
Click to expand...

He isn't technically the first ethnic minority PM. That was Benjamin Disraeli, he was a Sephardic Jew of Italian decent and was Prime Minister twice in the 19th Century. Rishi is the first ethnic minority PM that most people know at least, assuming he gets it.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
@africanspur I'd suggest reading about Abdul Rafiq. Just because someone is brown in skin colour it doesn't make them a role model or someone to be celebrated.

You and your friend should be educating his son that while it's great to have a minority in the top position in office, it doesn't mean they're a good person or have the best interests of other minorities at heart.

Lets hope others of Asian descent can look past the tone of his skin and judge him on his past and present. And then decide whether its something to be celebrated.

Women in this country hated Thatcher because she was a cnut and didn't care about the working class. It didn't matter that she was the first woman to hold the highest position in office. She was judged by her character not her gender.
Click to expand...

Again, have I said at any point that all brown people are to be celebrated or held up as role models?

Thanks for the suggestion but this teenager doesn't think that Sunak is a good person or has the best interests of other minorities at heart.

In fact, his viewpoint is pretty similar to yours in that paragraph funnily enough. Which I've said, probably 3 or 4 times now.

Yet still you and others say the same thing about sunak being a terrible person, as if literally anyone in this thread has said otherwise.

Some of the points are genuinely baffling, having never made them or anything akin to them at all.
 
IRN-BRUno said:



"We didn't give him a fair chance"
"Did a good job during a crisis"
"He made a few mistakes but who doesn't?"
:wenger:
Click to expand...


I’ve heard the same ‘he did a good job with the Pandemic’ from someone delivering my shopping… it’s difficult to know what to say - I mean, letting people die in care homes, ‘let it rip through society’, PPE etc.

I politely reminded her of other countries who did better, but when you’re dealing with that level of stultifying delusion I think you just have to stand back and admire what the Tories have done to these peoples’ minds.

Pexbo said:
He’s just going to sneak it. He will offer every back bencher and his dog a job in his cabinet.
Click to expand...

David Blunkett has switched to tory!?
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah Sunak becoming Britain first non white PM is a good thing. The fact he is a Tory doesn’t take anything way from that.


Tbh it always going to happened within the Tory party as the Left in England can at times be very conservative.
Click to expand...

You think that's why? I'd always judged it to be an issue of a centrist led Labour.

Especially right now Labour is terrified of appearing 'woke' given the vile personalities of those it's attempting to attract. Any minority in charge of Labour would come under such scrutiny so they won't risk it.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Whatever your opinion on race and ethnic minorities in senior political positions.

One thing to remember is that Johnson appointed people to his cabinet who he deemed to be no threat to him personally, of all colours and backgrounds.
Click to expand...

Even that policy backfired in the end with Sunak it seems.
 
africanspur said:
It might make up a very small part of your identity but, to a lot of people from ethnic minority backgrounds, if makes up a significant portion of their identity. That's clear from any conversation you see on here about race.

No I don't feel represented because it's a man but that's because, as a man, I come from the dominant sex. I don't need to feel extra representation as a man because most of those in positions of power, whether politics, finance, business, science, law, sport etc etc etc are men. As I just said above, the 2001 cabinet was all white and majority male. I don't need to feel excited by seeing men in positions of power because that's all I see. A girl growing up might be excited by seeing a woman in a position of power though, especially if she grew up in a setting where that isn't the norm.

I didn't say that you can't experience racism as a white man, so not sure where that's come from? But you said it's disappointing that my friends are excited by him? Not exactly ground breaking news that a teenager doesn't have the depth of thought of an adult is it?

Not sure why you think his parents would have arrived claiming asylum either, they're both professionals but either way, you're getting worked up about something I didn't say and in fact, have actively said the opposite. Even this kid grossly disagrees with Sunak's policies (so nope, he's not judging people solely on the colour of their skin) but can still be excited by someone who looks like him as a major player in British politics, even as he'll vote for another party when he's old enough to vote.

The two are not even close to being mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...

Is that not a problem in itself though? 2 working class people that live in a council estate and go to a public school and play sports together. But the Asian kid relates more to a rich privately educated person with billionaire in laws than the friend they grew up with because they share the same skin tone?

So why would I feel represented because white men from powerful rich families have previously held esteemed positions of power?
It's quite obvious here what the growing trend is. Class means more than race when it comes to the highest positions of power. And thus I won't celebrate people based on skin colour.
As I've already said women in the UK were anything but excited by Thatcher being the first woman PM. And they felt the same about May and Truss too. Because these aren't relsteable women or role models, they judge them by their character and history.

You didn't say it but your post assumed it. You brought racism into the post talking about the racism his parents would have experienced. I'm simply highlighting that Irish people have also been treated horribly by the British.

I didn't think his parents were asylum seekers or suggest that? I said that had his parents been asylum seekers today that Suella would be sending them to Rwanda. And would he celebrate her had she got the top position on the basis of having the same skin tone? Basically I was just trying to highlight that her immigration policy in itself is racist and would have impacted many of those contributing to the UK today had it been implemented a century ago.

The kid by excited all he likes. I just don't think it's a cause worth celebrating. And honestly I'm exhausted by listening to these tories trying to portray themselves as some sort of progressive party with opportunities for all. And it's grossly concerning that some young British Indian kids might be looking at this and thinking "I want to be a tory. Look at Braverman, Patel, Sunak. This is a party which gives us opportunities". So I stand by my point whereby people should be judged on their character and their actions first and foremost, not their skin colour. And as a result of this, this isn't news worth celebrating for anyone of any age. But by this friends sons reaction, it shows how the tory party will now infiltrate and gain support in some quarters because of Sunaks skin colour. And that for me is concerning because this tory party is fuelled by racism with a handful of sellouts willing to represent them for personal gain rather than for the good of the people.
 
One thing I never understand about politics especially here is the fuss that gets made about how rich a person is

While I'm no fan of Sunak or the Tories I fail to grasp why it matters how much money he happens to have.

Surely all that matters is what they actually do in the role as they are all rich anyway including the Labour Members he just happens to be richer than the rest.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I’ve heard the same ‘he did a good job with the Pandemic’ from someone delivering my shopping… it’s difficult to know what to say - I mean, letting people die in care homes, ‘let it rip through society’, PPE etc.

I politely reminded her of other countries who did better, but when you’re dealing with that level of stultifying delusion I think you just have to stand back and admire what the Tories have done to these peoples’ minds.
Click to expand...
Remember what Mark Twain said.
 
lsd said:
One thing I never understand about politics especially here is the fuss that gets made about how rich a person is

While I'm no fan of Sunak or the Tories I fail to grasp why it matters how much money he happens to have.

Surely all that matters is what they actually do in the role as they are all rich anyway including the Labour Members he just happens to be richer than the rest.
Click to expand...
Empathy.
 
lsd said:
One thing I never understand about politics especially here is the fuss that gets made about how rich a person is

While I'm no fan of Sunak or the Tories I fail to grasp why it matters how much money he happens to have.

Surely all that matters is what they actually do in the role as they are all rich anyway including the Labour Members he just happens to be richer than the rest.
Click to expand...
for me, its because if we have a HoC filled with primarily very wealthy individuals who are they expected to make policy relating to the vast majority of the country, who arent. They dont have the relevant experience to know what struggles and hardships people face, and that would be ok, if they then selected a few people WITH that experience to advise them, but they wont, it will be mor oxbridge etonian twats, or sons of friends etc.
 
lsd said:
One thing I never understand about politics especially here is the fuss that gets made about how rich a person is

While I'm no fan of Sunak or the Tories I fail to grasp why it matters how much money he happens to have.

Surely all that matters is what they actually do in the role as they are all rich anyway including the Labour Members he just happens to be richer than the rest.
Click to expand...

It's not his current wealth that's key but his upbringing. You think Rees-Mogg for instance has a valid perception of the lives lived by most of the country? Its a simple matter of personal insight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.