Westminster Politics

Your father was quite right. But unfortunately, there are nothing like enough who even understand what is happening. And even less who care enough.
To your credit, I know that you do.
But how many of your friends and family do for example?

You are spot on with this!... I can scarcely open my mouth at family gatherings, before I get 'don't you dare' looks from my wife and my two daughters... my nephew tries it on now an again and he tosses the odd 'grenade' in occasionally to try and set me off.... sometimes he succeeds!
End of party... or I get hauled off to sit on the naughty step! ;)
 

You could spend a year with this bloke teaching him maths and showing him all the data that proves he’s in the top 5% of earners and he’d spend an entire year convinced he was still right shouting “I am not in the top 5% of earners” back at you.

He’s probably come from humble beginnings, worked hard and done well in a trade that pays well and it’s put him in that bracket. Fair play to him but in his head the “top 5% of earners” isn’t a statistic, it’s a mythical class made up solely of elite people who are all professionals and all come from old money.
 
Not sure that I understand how regulating would work, or would even be practical. Take the BBC for example. It has proved almost impossible to regulate it with scandal after scandal.
They are supposed to be accountable to the license payers. But are they really.

I accept that the media in general are part of the problem.
But it is a fact that you get the government you deserve.
And an apathetic electorate deserves an incompetent and immoral government which is exactly what we have and may well continue to have.
Particularly in the internet age where news stories are so diffuse. It's a weak argument that Labour would somehow have waved a magic wand and the UK media would be totally unbiased and honest. Wishful thinking, sadly.
 
To go back to the question of 'why did they choose to raise NI over other taxes'... this morning I've been reading an interesting IFS report (on holiday by the pool, cos that's how I roll), which I think points to the likely answer.

Other countries raise more from social security contributions...

The composition of revenue in the UK is broadly in line with other developed countries. The amounts raised from income tax, VAT, other indirect taxes and corporation tax are all around the average for comparable countries. The UK raises more than most from property taxes, especially business rates. But it raises less than average from social security contributions (SSCs – National Insurance contributions in the UK), and in particular from employers’ SSCs.

NkD0byu.png


...particularly for average earners
If the UK were to adopt the income tax and SSC rates of one of our higher-tax European neighbours, it might raise slightly more from the highest earners. But the big difference would be in the tax levied on the earnings of average workers. The average tax rate on median full-time earnings in the UK was 28% in 2016–17. This is much lower than it would be under the tax systems of the other countries shown in Figure 5, for which the average is 44%. Since 2016–17 (the year for which this analysis was undertaken), the income tax personal allowance has been increased more quickly than inflation, which will have further reduced income tax payments at the median in the UK.

https://ifs.org.uk/uploads/BN259-How-high-are-our-taxes-and-where-does-the-money-come-from.pdf
 



wouldn't that wage put somebody in the top 3% of earners worldwide
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan....GBR&household[adults]=1&household[children]=0

and comfortably in the top half in the UK
https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/...-your-income-percentile-with-this-calculator/

So graduate - by probability single and no kids... probably better off than the vast majority of households
https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

so tax the rich and all that ... 42.25% for having their University education pre-funded by the tax payer enabling them to get a well paying job for the rest of their life... that does not strike me as a massive tax rate to be honest given the need to fund housing NHS, social care and at some point eliminate not only the national deficit but actually tackle the massive national debt
 
wouldn't that wage put somebody in the top 3% of earners worldwide
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=27500&countryCode=GBR&household[adults]=1&household[children]=0

and comfortably in the top half in the UK
https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/...-your-income-percentile-with-this-calculator/

So graduate - by probability single and no kids... probably better off than the vast majority of households
https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

so tax the rich and all that ... 42.25% for having their University education pre-funded by the tax payer enabling them to get a well paying job for the rest of their life... that does not strike me as a massive tax rate to be honest given the need to fund housing NHS, social care and at some point eliminate not only the national deficit but actually tackle the massive national debt
Remember that time you used to claim to be left wing. Haha yeah good times.
 
You are spot on with this!... I can scarcely open my mouth at family gatherings, before I get 'don't you dare' looks from my wife and my two daughters... my nephew tries it on now an again and he tosses the odd 'grenade' in occasionally to try and set me off.... sometimes he succeeds!
End of party... or I get hauled off to sit on the naughty step! ;)

Yep. Was similar for me. But now I am over the age of 70, no one takes any notice of what I have to say anyway.
 
You could spend a year with this bloke teaching him maths and showing him all the data that proves he’s in the top 5% of earners and he’d spend an entire year convinced he was still right shouting “I am not in the top 5% of earners” back at you.

He’s probably come from humble beginnings, worked hard and done well in a trade that pays well and it’s put him in that bracket. Fair play to him but in his head the “top 5% of earners” isn’t a statistic, it’s a mythical class made up solely of elite people who are all professionals and all come from old money.
Not only does he think he’s not in the top 5%, he doesn’t think he’s in the top 50%. If over half the U.K. made that much we wouldn’t have many problems.
 
wouldn't that wage put somebody in the top 3% of earners worldwide
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=27500&countryCode=GBR&household[adults]=1&household[children]=0

and comfortably in the top half in the UK
https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/...-your-income-percentile-with-this-calculator/

So graduate - by probability single and no kids... probably better off than the vast majority of households
https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

so tax the rich and all that ... 42.25% for having their University education pre-funded by the tax payer enabling them to get a well paying job for the rest of their life... that does not strike me as a massive tax rate to be honest given the need to fund housing NHS, social care and at some point eliminate not only the national deficit but actually tackle the massive national debt

Comfortably being 55%?
 
Particularly in the internet age where news stories are so diffuse. It's a weak argument that Labour would somehow have waved a magic wand and the UK media would be totally unbiased and honest. Wishful thinking, sadly.

Yes. It is far too easy to blame anything or evening. But it pains me to say that the only thing responsible is Labour themselves.
 


wouldn't that wage put somebody in the top 3% of earners worldwide
https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=27500&countryCode=GBR&household[adults]=1&household[children]=0

and comfortably in the top half in the UK
https://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk/...-your-income-percentile-with-this-calculator/

So graduate - by probability single and no kids... probably better off than the vast majority of households
https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in

so tax the rich and all that ... 42.25% for having their University education pre-funded by the tax payer enabling them to get a well paying job for the rest of their life... that does not strike me as a massive tax rate to be honest given the need to fund housing NHS, social care and at some point eliminate not only the national deficit but actually tackle the massive national debt
It's kind of misleading the way it's worded given it's referring to the marginal tax rate for graduates above that income level.

A graduate (with a student loan) will not make any repayments against their loan at an income of £27,295. Their annual take-home pay will be £22,222.76 for this year, after income tax of £2,945 and NI of £2,127. Total effective tax rate: 19%. (I've ignored pension contributions they may want to make)

Their annual take-home pay will be about £200 lower next year as a result of higher NI.
 
It's kind of misleading the way it's worded given it's referring to the marginal tax rate for graduates above that income level.

A graduate (with a student loan) will not make any repayments against their loan at an income of £27,295. Their annual take-home pay will be £22,222.76 for this year, after income tax of £2,945 and NI of £2,127. Total effective tax rate: 19%.

Their annual take-home pay will be about £200 lower next year as a result of higher NI.

What about people with the pre-reform student loans? Don't you pay for earnings above like £23k?

Also factoring in VAT at 20% on most items people on middling incomes are losing a lot to taxation
 
Yes. It is far too easy to blame anything or evening. But it pains me to say that the only thing responsible is Labour themselves.
Labour currently are pretty much the architect of their own problems, but I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the media. I'm just sceptical about how much regulation would really change things beyond cutting out lowhanging fruit like long lens pap shots, make apologies have equivalent placing to false stories etc...
 
What about people with the pre-reform student loans? Don't you pay for earnings above like £23k?

Also factoring in VAT at 20% on most items people on middling incomes are losing a lot to taxation
Someone on the old system (Repayment Plan 1) will pay £660 annually in student loan repayments at this income level (£27,295).

In terms of the real tax burden people face across all taxes and benefits, here's the data for 2017 which is the latest I've seen. It hasn't changed that much since then:

Bhor527.png

https://ifs.org.uk/uploads/BN249.pdf
 
Clueless question as always, what would be the other options to fund this shortfall other than the NI hike?
The tax system as it stands means income received from going to work is effectively taxed (tax + NI) at a higher rate than other forms of income.

Income from interest, dividends, capital gains, inheritance and even things like renting out houses are all taxed more generously. Some of them just by removing the NI component so you only pay the income tax, others due to additional tax allowances and more generous tax rates.

The Tories argue that this incentivises savings and investment. I see it as just a way of making sure that the burden falls more heavily on low paid and average earners. Funny how it's the richest who need incentives.
 
Clueless question as always, what would be the other options to fund this shortfall other than the NI hike?
The NHS could try spending their money more wisely. Nobody wants to say it but it’s a massive fecking problem.
The same as the police force, too much money being wasted on shite.

Paying too much money for resources to start with. You can put some of that blame on the private companies who choose to charge the nhs and police extortionate amounts for basic goods and maintenance, even something as simple as toilet roll. Both the Nhs and police pay stupid amounts for this shit.

They also spend too much unnecessary money on medicine. Over prescribing something as basic as paracetamol.
Overpaying directors and consultants and all the other undeserving snakes sitting on six figure salaries working for them. The list is endless.
 
The NHS could try spending their money more wisely. Nobody wants to say it but it’s a massive fecking problem.
The same as the police force, too much money being wasted on shite.

Paying too much money for resources to start with. You can put some of that blame on the private companies who choose to charge the nhs and police extortionate amounts for basic goods and maintenance, even something as simple as toilet roll. Both the Nhs and police pay stupid amounts for this shit.

They also spend too much unnecessary money on medicine. Over prescribing something as basic as paracetamol.
Overpaying directors and consultants and all the other undeserving snakes sitting on six figure salaries working for them. The list is endless.
Nah. UK health expenditure is pretty efficient compared to other countries. Highlighted bar below:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/chartimage?u...comparewithothercountries/2019-08-29/ae93ec43
 
Nah. UK health expenditure is pretty efficient compared to other countries. Highlighted bar below:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/chartimage?u...comparewithothercountries/2019-08-29/ae93ec43

Nah. UK health expenditure is pretty efficient compared to other countries. Highlighted bar below:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/chartimage?u...comparewithothercountries/2019-08-29/ae93ec43
Nah?

it’s not an opinion I’m expressing :lol: It’s a fact. I’m not sure how that graph you showed me disproves that the Nhs mis-spend money.
 
Nah?

it’s not an opinion I’m expressing :lol: It’s a fact. I’m not sure how that graph you showed me disproves that the Nhs mis-spend money.
Any sources/data that backs your facts up?
 
Nah?

it’s not an opinion I’m expressing :lol: It’s a fact. I’m not sure how that graph you showed me disproves that the Nhs mis-spend money.
Sorry, please ignore all the graphs and actual numbers I’ve been posting, I bow to your facts that the NHS spends too much on toilet paper.
 
Not sure that I understand how regulating would work, or would even be practical. Take the BBC for example. It has proved almost impossible to regulate it with scandal after scandal.
They are supposed to be accountable to the license payers. But are they really.

I accept that the media in general are part of the problem.
But it is a fact that you get the government you deserve.
And an apathetic electorate deserves an incompetent and immoral government which is exactly what we have and may well continue to have.
The BBC impartiality was ruined by Camerons government with changes in leadership to Tory supporters and constant threats of defending from the Tory government. The BBC has been compromised. Effectively it is regulated to support the government position now and feign impartiality.

The public only know what the media tell them. Education may provide the public with more tools for critical thinking but for the most part education is underfunded too. It seems the government like having a populace without too much capacity for critical thinking or questioning authority!
 
The Tories continue to tax income, not wealth and people are arguing about NHS Spend, and actually graduates are richer than 97% of the world.

The people in this country love to suffer :lol:

Just let me know when everyone decides to protest and i'll be there, everything else is just waffle now.
 
The Tories continue to tax income, not wealth and people are arguing about NHS Spend, and actually graduates are richer than 97% of the world.

The people in this country love to suffer :lol:

Just let me know when everyone decides to protest and i'll be there, everything else is just waffle now.
Pretty much.
 
So I'll pay about £250 more per year? Fine, whatever. But it doesn't get away from the reality that;

1) there's absolutely no fecking way that all of the money earned is going to the NHS, no matter what these lying cnuts say.
2) they'll look to find more ways to divide and rule/take more money in 6-12 months time for another reason that is a "difficult decision", presumably with some elite rich feck of a minister talking condescendingly to the public.
3) the cost of living is already mental and is only going to get worse, while we have pay freezes for (I'm betting) at least three years.
4) lower-wage earners are going to get fecked hard by this and nobody will care.
 
Lib Dems got crucified for breaking a manifesto commitment but as with everything else, the electorate will lap this up and the Tories will end up staying ahead in the polls and getting in again. How depressing.
 
The Tories continue to tax income, not wealth and people are arguing about NHS Spend, and actually graduates are richer than 97% of the world.

The people in this country love to suffer :lol:

Just let me know when everyone decides to protest and i'll be there, everything else is just waffle now.

They are loving the Brexit sovereignty, in all seriousness, politics in the country is well and truly in the gutter these days, what a joke!
 
Sorry, please ignore all the graphs and actual numbers I’ve been posting, I bow to your facts that the NHS spends too much on toilet paper.
Erm what, you posted one graph….which was very basic.
Go to Google (a search engine) and Google the phrase ‘ nhs money wasted’ you’ll be greeted with a significant amount of articles, figures and graphs. Arguing about the Nhs wasting money is like arguing against the sky being blue.
 
Erm what, you posted one graph….which was very basic.
Go to Google (a search engine) and Google the phrase ‘ nhs money wasted’ you’ll be greeted with a significant amount of articles, figures and graphs. Arguing about the Nhs wasting money is like arguing against the sky being blue.
:lol:

If the NHS is inefficient, then every other western health system is equally or more so.
 
Erm what, you posted one graph….which was very basic.
Go to Google (a search engine) and Google the phrase ‘ nhs money wasted’ you’ll be greeted with a significant amount of articles, figures and graphs. Arguing about the Nhs wasting money is like arguing against the sky being blue.
If I type "NHS sells kidneys on black market" into Google I'm pretty sure I could also find loads of articles.

In fact, googling "NHS money wasted" was interesting. Including the second result which was a BBC article on "NHS money wasted"

"In fact, a report by the Commonwealth Fund found it was the most cost-effective in the world."
 
If I type "NHS sells kidneys on black market" into Google I'm pretty sure I could also find loads of articles.

In fact, googling "NHS money wasted" was interesting. Including the second result which was a BBC article(a website) on "NHS money wasted"

"In fact, a report by the Commonwealth Fund found it was the most cost-effective in the world."
Just a small edit to help @Leroy The Red.
 
So I'll pay about £250 more per year? Fine, whatever. But it doesn't get away from the reality that;

1) there's absolutely no fecking way that all of the money earned is going to the NHS, no matter what these lying cnuts say.
2) they'll look to find more ways to divide and rule/take more money in 6-12 months time for another reason that is a "difficult decision", presumably with some elite rich feck of a minister talking condescendingly to the public.
3) the cost of living is already mental and is only going to get worse, while we have pay freezes for (I'm betting) at least three years.
4) lower-wage earners are going to get fecked hard by this and nobody will care.
It will be companies owned by Tory friends which cash in on the new care rules too.
 
Erm what, you posted one graph….which was very basic.
Go to Google (a search engine) and Google the phrase ‘ nhs money wasted’ you’ll be greeted with a significant amount of articles, figures and graphs. Arguing about the Nhs wasting money is like arguing against the sky being blue.
Any large organisation will have examples of wasting money. But that is not the core problem with the NHS. It is being under funded and privatised by stealth, being split up and various private companies offering non joined up care. Meanwhile the private companies are making plenty of money but the NHS is suffering.

Also, while you are on Google, look up "social care underfunded uk" and "UK ageing population" and you will find plenty of examples as to why the NHS is under even more pressure than ever while government funding is not matching the increased demands.