What a load of utter shite. Jesus
Reading things like this make a tiny bit of me hope for the biggest throbbing red white and blue brexit imaginable. Astonishing arrogance and narcissism
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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What a load of utter shite. Jesus
Reading things like this make a tiny bit of me hope for the biggest throbbing red white and blue brexit imaginable. Astonishing arrogance and narcissism
A parliament without tories might be the way forward to be honest...
That's an insult to Trump. Trump managed to be on the ticket when an election was held and won that election. Boris is a late loser.
Couldn't parliament theoretically vote to remove all police protections for PM / Ministers if he keeps going like this? (or at least remove the funding for it).
If you dislike the childish behaviour then I assume you prefer Corbyn? He has been one of the least childish and most mature voice in parliament for some time now. Not resorting to petty insults, trying to raise valid points for discussion etc. He is certainly one of the least adversarial.
The more I think about it, the more I believe the so-called Remain Alliance need to call for a VONC sooner rather than later.
I wonder what the Tory boys in here will be trying to defend next week. I can't even figure out if they know they're just regurgitating lines they hear in the media.
One minute they'll argue there's no need for a GE then Boris pushes for one and suddenly anyone who doesn't want one is frustrating brexit.
The thing is i bet they don't like Trump and will claim to be nothing like Trump supporters.
One minute they'll argue there's no need for a GE then Boris pushes for one and suddenly anyone who doesn't want one is frustrating brexit.
The thing is i bet they don't like Trump and will claim to be nothing like Trump supporters.
The issue with scuppering brexit is it is scuppering democracy I’m afraid, and if the shoe were on the other foot and remain won, would you be tolerating the scuppering of your democratic victory? I probably know the answer to that.
And how are you so certain that leave wouldn’t win again? The will of the people was already displayed in 2016.
And on the 2nd referendum, does anyone seriously think that would solve anything? What if remain won? Would that automatically mean it is over? What if leave win again? Would remain accept it? Again, I know the answer to both of those already.
And as for opinions changing, I doubt many, if any, have changed opinions, only got more entrenched in them.
It is now time for leave and remain to work this out. It is fine for an MP to stick to their morals and convictions but what if those morals are at odds with the constituents that voted for them?
It’s called democracy Sammsky and it’s a beautiful thing but you are not always on the winning side and I’ve always been able to accept that. If this changes and our elected officials can ignore the democratic choices they wish to, our country will suffer massively in the future.
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Nonsense.
It’s a good job I haven’t got much on today, it’s been a busy day on this thread.How is it nonsense Abizzz?
How is it nonsense Abizzz?
By definition democracies can change their mind on anything they decide. In a democratic way. Which is the brexiteers nightmare, because they just want their way and are embarrassing themselves and their country to get it.
That’s very true matey but the country haven’t changed their minds at this point, politicians are doing for them. And as I said, what if remain won a 2nd referendum? Would that end it? It would be an absolute nightmare.
Is a second referendum undemocratic? Whatever your views on the merits of it are, it is hard to argue that allowing the people to have a confirmatory vote would be undemocratic. Certainly, you cannot rationally argue that it is less democratic than Johnson, voted in by about 0.01% of the population and now the figurehead of a party that was not elected on a No-Deal platform, trying to drag the country out without a deal.
No dude, but where does it end?
Unlike the dream we are currently going through...
I'm just saying scuppering brexit has nothing to do with scuppering democracy and anyone who says so either has no understanding of democracy or is deliberately doing it a disservice.
So a winning majority voted and the losing minority are scuppering it. What is democratic about that?
So your point about "scuppering Brexit" being undemocratic has no basis then, unless you disagreed with anything that I said. If MPs were trying to cancel Brexit and revoke Article 50 without a mandate then that would certainly constitute scuppering Brexit, but preventing an undemocratic leader from crashing out via undemocratic means can hardly be called undemocratic itself.
As it happens I didn’t disagree with your post. But what will a confirmatory vote confirm? More than like the same split as before. Then what?
And I don’t think it will be long before there are moves to revoke article 50.
And as distasteful as I find Boris, you can’t claim he’s being undemocratic if he’s trying to go to a snap election.
Not read up so don't know if this has been covered but the Brexit party broadcast has just been aired in my region
Got a feeling that is going to win quite a few votes. Annoying that Farage has made 'clean break Brexit' a thing.
Got a feeling that is going to win quite a few votes. Annoying that Farage has made 'clean break Brexit' a thing.
Well, people aways seem to forget all the people who didn't bother to vote. We have to assume that most of those folk weren't interested enough in the proposed change to go out and vote. People who want a change to the status quo will always vote for it, if given the opportunity. 28% of eligible voters didn't vote. That's a lot of people.
In addition, there are many young people who have become eligible to vote since 2016, and many older ones who've died. I think if there was a second referendum, we'd see a very different result.
Hear hear. Although I still don’t see why it’s necessary to mention Corbyn. Now I’m definitely not a Corbynista, but I can’t recall Corbyn using inflammatory remarks (as leader of the opposition at least) in the Commons. In fact in the debate last night Corbyn was calling on all politicians on all sides to tone down their language.
As for the Brexit strategy, the UK is a parliamentary democracy. People vote for MP’s to govern on their behalf. We even have had a GE after the referendum. So it’s the MP’s duty to scrutinize policies, like it or not. And if the majority of the House of Commons is against Brexit then so be it. Or would you rather live under a dictatorship?!
That isn't happening. The winning majority is incapable of delivering on it's win. Brexiteers are in power and they are failing to deliver what they promised.
And yet they are blaming their own failure on those who are against their objective. They are clowns.
A confirmatory vote will confirm the public's decision. The first time they voted on whether to Leave or not. The second time they will be asked if they want the terms that have been negotiated following the first result or if they instead now believe that Remaining is better. The difference is if it is to Leave then the deal is in place, that is voted through and that forms the basis of the UK's relations with the EU for the next decade at least. If it's Remain then we revoke A50 and that forms the basis of our relations with the EU.
And yes, you can claim Johnson is being undemocratic because he tried to prorogue parliament for five weeks and he has already made clear his intention to ignore legislation passed by our democratically elected representatives. The opposition are not stupid enough to fall for his offer of an election until it is clear that No Deal is off the table, at least until/unless it has a democratic mandate.
The reporter on North West tonight absolutely ripped Johnson go pieces in a way I haven't seen anyone else to.
At one point he was speechless as she brought up countless examples of him being caught lying.
Was brilliant to watch
At one point he was speechless as she brought up countless examples of him being caught lying.
Was brilliant to watch
I mentioned Corbyn only to highlight how there is not one single leader, Boris, Corbyn, Swinson that I would think suitable for office. Currently as a true centrist (and I know I get called out for that) I stand watching the shit flying everywhere and it’s so depressing.
As for parliamentary democracy, of course I get it but Brexit is a strange beast that was put to the people in a referendum. Those MPs are acting at odds with direct instruction from a majority (however slim) of voters so it is very easy for Boris to play the ‘fighting for the people’ card. Parliament has to try and come together somehow.
Everyone was very confident of a remain victory 3 years ago. There are far too many unknowns to predict anything with certainty.
3 years of brexiters being branded thick racists and the polls haven’t moved much at all. And who exactly is going to front the remain campaign?
Need a tissue to catch your bile?
Nina Warhurst interview with Boris Johnson , everyone should watch.
He's utterly fecking odious.
He's utterly fecking odious.
Democracy and referendums are 2 very different things. One of a mere tool of the other. By conflating the two, you simply display your wilful ignorance.
Democracy as we have defined is that the House of Commons decides on our behalf. That’s their job.
House of Commons does not support BrExit. Hope that’s dealt with your false claim of ‘scuppering democracy’.
In fact the only action of note that attempted ‘scuppering democracy’ was the proroguing of Parliament.
Brexit is falling apart. You know as well as I do that it won’t happen. You can deal with that gracefully or smash up buildings and beat up MPs and get arrested. The choice is yours.
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Totally agree. It is reckless. The actions of a group of sociopaths.
Exactly. Another referendum would solve nothing, only divide even more.
No deal Brexit was not voted for. It was actively dismissed by the leave campaign as near impossible. German cars etc etc.
Boris Johnson trying to force through a no deal Brexit by illegally bypassing parliamentary democracy purely so he can claim a victory during a GE campaign. Then refusing to accept any wrong doing. Refusing to acknowledge his colleagues concern that his language and actions are encouraging death threats. Saying that the best way to remember a murdered MP is by enacting something she stood against. That's the very definition of divisive.
I do not buy into this "both sides" argument being made for Johnsons governments action the last 24 hours.
I can see both sides of brexit debate, leave or remain. But not like this.
That horse has already bolted. The country is bitterly divided, further fuelled by Johnson/Cummings using the Trump playbook. A second referendum would at least have legitimacy in that it would be based on defined alternatives (EU membership vs some variant of May’s deal) rather than EU membership vs [insert your own wish-list here]. And given I have yet to hear a single, plausible benefit of Brexit after three and half years (now even Leave don’t bother pretending there are advantages - it’s just a simple majoritarian argument that they won by a tiny margin over 3 years ago), you can’t seriously expect half (and now over half) the country to rollover and acquiesce in the economic, diplomatic and moral downsizing of their country.
Yes, there are two sides and several shades inbetween. However, the narrative that Parliament (and the hard Brexiteers voted down the deal too, including the current PM) and the judiciary are against the people is being actively peddled and developed. They are prepared to burn the structures of this country's constitution and institutions. That is a deliberate and cynical strategy to inflame to win an election at all costs. No nuance and they know what they're doing. There is no equivalent on the other side. This, to be clear, is mot to suggest that there are not behaviours away from the Govt benches I take issue with but there is not nothing to compare with this government's combative strategy.
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It’s an amazing twist of logic to suggest that asking the public to confirm their vote is somehow divisive and undemocratic. Actually it’s not, it’s just stupid bollocks.
Either Brexit is the will of the people or it isn’t. If you ask the people again and they don’t want it, then it isn’t the will of the people.
And if they do want it?
It'd divide less than trying to strong arm Parliament and the judiciary whilst calling everyone not on your side a treacherous capitulator.
Well a 2nd referendum can be used to confirm what sort of Brexit the people want.
Then they get it. Though hopefully it will be made clear at that point what Brexit actually means, as opposed to yet more promises of unicorns being used to lure voters into ultimately backing a hard exit. Even still, they're certainly far more informed of the realities of Brexit now than they were previously.
You think that taking the only meaningful vote in 40 years and tossing it in the bin will result in LESS division than just executing the verdict as promised? What are you man smoking?
Then on their own head be it, but let them decide.