You’re welcome to. But I decline. I won’t defend his rights to anything.
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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Full political and fiscal union is undoubtedly the endgame, or certainly the goal, whatever public support is. Full speed or not and there’s no point in thinking otherwise, as you said, shelved for the time being.
And I’m not anti EU at all. I’m just of the opinion that the UK’s integration since 1975 has been so poorly and dishonestly managed it’s almost criminal and has ensured we end up with the almost irreparable division we’re all now taking about. There should have been referendums agreeing or disagreeing to each treaty signed, this would have ensured greater buy in or not from the public. A proper mandate for each stage of European integration was needed for something as big as this.
Don't use straw man arguments. It's disruptive to a constructive debate.
I'd like to know what specific lies I've told?
I believe all governments and political institutions are inherently but often unknowingly corrupt and even by their good intentions, by definition they harm the populace.
I did not say that 27 nations wanted to shaft the UK... Neither did I say that Boris/Farage, or the EU for that matter aren't blatant liars... Of course they are. If lying assists your cause to a greater degree than telling the truth hurts you cause, then of course you'll like.
This is why all government policy is inherently nonsense. Corbyn isn't going to seize private assets and Boris isn't going to increase the 40% tax rate to £80k. They're both liars. It's our job to highlight and disseminate these lies, rather than back them.
In terms of public support for EU policies generally the larger the organisation the less they care about support. This has been the case in terms of alleged austerity (apparently unpopular yet allegedly implemented)... This has been the case with enforcing sanctions on Greece... This has been the case with implementation of the Euro.
Every country was not given a referendum on each EU treaty. Every country was not given a referendum on adopting the Euro. Every country was not given a referendum on even joining the block.
The problem with block democracy is that it dilutes democracy and anything that dilutes democracy is dangerous. As a society we accept that huge monopolies are generally bad for business... But when our moralistic overlords state that we can't buy Brazilian beef without tariffs we think they're doing it for our own good? Bollocks.
Society can decide whether chlorinated chicken or Brazilian beef aren't welcomed or shouldn't be bought, not politicians with vested interests. Tesco wouldn't stock it if it were harmful (they'd soon go bust) and I wouldn't buy it if it were harmful. Preventing poor people from having cheap food and preventing poor nations from getting wealthier by preventing them from entering our markets for protectionist purposes is morally bankrupt (it's also not a coincidence that poor African people are not allowed in the club
and rich white people are)
The EU and the UK government is similarly morally bankrupt. Wanting to end one isn't supporting the other.
Then please don't complain if and when you aren't aloud to protest a just cause because the government deem what you're protesting "unpalatable" and therefore imprison all who take your stance.
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I voted remain. I work for a multinational company that starts with the word Euro
I do however have friends (educated, some liberal and not one of them racist) who voted leave and we’ve spent many nights drinking and talking about Brexit, I have to say I get where they’re coming from and think the vote should be respected.
This is only relevant if sammsky is PM at the time.
EDIT - Which I'm not wholly opposed to. Providing he doesn't attempt to take control over the England cricket team.
Cheers man.
You think forcing through the furthest right of the UK's interpretation of the result of that referendum (and let's not get into the stupidity of calling an ill defined binary vote on such a complex and emotive matter in the first place) will result in LESS division than going back to the people to ratify (or not) the most significant constitutional change in 40 years? What are you man smoking (sic)?
P.s. Was man smoking some sort of cryptic blowjob reference that I'm too old to get?
My view is increasingly that I want Boris gone as PM, despite my fears this could play in to his hands. I'm not comfortable with allowing him to ever increase the threat of far right terrorism, from the position of Prime Minister. I think removing him from his position, right now, is probably the best option we have.
So do you think that the Swiss and Norwegians, for example, are in every single possible way worse off than us?
Absolute nonsense. The second we as a society accept censorship in the name of a supposed greater good that is enacted by any politician; we accept it both ways.
For every person saying Boris should be unable to say what he said there will be a person saying Corbyn should be censored on any supposed anti-Israel rhetoric.
If you don't like what he said, post about it here. Talk about it with your friends. Vote him out as a result. Absolutely do not cry "ban"
We are all just talking about different things here. I think no deal would be madness and I don’t want it at all.
But I do think we have to leave the EU. The only power a man has is a vote. If you keep sending people back to the polls because you don’t like the result then what’s the point in anything?
But they're not an island with a population 64m+people situated off the coast of mainland Europe, they have borders because they are not in the EUCU but are in the EEA and/or EFTA but can cope with having border controls.
But we've been through this hundreds of times.
Yet you will defend Boris Johnsons strawman arguments to the death? Will you make your mind up?
Absolute nonsense.
That’s spot on.
I'm not trying to ban you from saying them. I'm saying your straw man arguments are disruptive to a positive debate, exactly as Bojo's are.
You're right - we should set up a government department with a political persuasion that you agree with and have them determine what's acceptable and unacceptable.
They should throw people in prison who upset people's sensibilities and repress debate accordingly.
Fair enough. I could also see the benefits of leaving, with a deal though. But I leaned towards remain due to the extreme right hijacking the leave campaign (I could never endorse their xenophobic strategy) and also economic reasons.I voted remain. I work for a multinational company that starts with the word Euro
I do however have friends (educated, some liberal and not one of them racist) who voted leave and we’ve spent many nights drinking and talking about Brexit, I have to say I get where they’re coming from and think the vote should be respected.
What Johnson and the Tories have done is enact a cynical election strategy of confrontation, disrespect, division and increased anger in order for them to cling onto power. I hope people can see that this is actually a much bigger threat to the UK than the EU!
didn't answer the question. Thought so. Just like your boy Boris. You know why? Because you can't and you know it. Just own up to it.
That'd be great but feels unlikely so for now I'll settle for dreaming of a world where people agree no one should continue being Prime Minister when they're using their ability to fire up right wing extremists as a threat to their political opponents.
Funnily enough, this looks like a strawman argument.
Name some equivalent Corbyn anti-Israel rhetoric. With links please.
Oh shut up you child. Nobody likes Johnson. Go back to your jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams thread.
Is that the best you've got? Really? Save your nonsense hyperbole for all your Brexiter pals - they fell for the lies of the Leave campaign so they might bite.
And anyways, don't tell me you actually think that we all have 'free speech'. Please!
Also allowed not aloud.
So it’s absolutely impossible in every way shape or form for us to go the EFTA route or something similar?
Getting aggressive just like BJ, because you cant argue your point? Oh so predictable.
I'd delegate that to people like @JohnnyKills and yourself. Consider yourselves Minister and secretary in my future cabinet!No but what about the borders and if you're still in the EEA or EFTA and have to be in the EUCU to resolve NI plus avoiding the chaos the borders will cause - what is the point of leaving?
Except the main mechanism to remove him would just cause a general election and quite possibly return him to office for 5 years, not to mention maybe causing a no-deal Brexit in the process.
It’s the softest way imaginable and will placate many people. That’s the whole point.
The second the referendum was lost all efforts should’ve gone into finding a solution like this instead of spending 3 years wailing about Russian bots and whatever. Now we are staring down the barrel of no deal
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As I said, I'm aware of the risk.
It doesn't have to cause an instant general election, obviously. If done remotely properly it would remove the threat of no deal, instantly, via an interim government.
After that of course we have to have an election. I'd rather take my chances with that than continue as is. I think it's almost inevitable that we're facing another tragedy soon, the way things are going.
Thanks mate. Strong and stable.
Thankfully the grown ups won’t allow BJ and his ilk to destroy this country.
It may be the softest option but you'd be the same as now without representation in any of the EU bodies. I don't see that many people will be placated when reality hits them of what they've done or has happened.
I don't know how you placate such opposing views and I don't see this going away whether the UK Leaves or Remains.
I can't think of anything more depressing than the electorate, after watching his first months in office and looking at his ignominious past, returning him to power with a majority. He's not only acting deplorably, he is doing it with a hearty dose of incompetence. I'd begrudgingly see the appeal in him if he at least had an ounce of political nous to him. As it stands, I despair that any reasonable minded person could vote for him.
But you wouldn’t have to integrate further and further with all the political motives that come with it.
Anyway, let’s pretend your life depends on creating an option to leave the EU. What would be your top workable solutions for doing so?
I would just like to see an ounce of compromise in these brexit threads. You obviously know your stuff more than most so play devils advocate for a change
@finneh @Volumiza a serious debate should have been held during the referendum and not some idiotic dishonest campaign like that was held by the leave mob.
The fact is that the electorate of each EU country gets to vote for their politicians who govern for them. It has been clear to the voters what they have been intending to do in respect of the EU and even now the electorate of each EU member state can vote for a political party who wants out of the EU. In other words, Brussels is no more or less democratic than Westminster. Well actually, at least most EU member states have proportional representation in their country so I wouldn’t want to say the EU is quite as undemocratic as that...
I’d agree that some things are wrong in the EU. For example, it’s ridiculous that we poison our farmland after every harvest or allow ourselves to be lobbied (some say bribed) and have our policies influenced by large profit making industries whose only interest is greed.
On the other hand, what’s the alternative? Somehow I can’t see the likes of a Farrage or Boris being champions of social justice and sustainable technologies. To think Britain will be better off outside the EU is absurd. The EU has done so much good for society in general. One of the main successes of the EU for example is its protecting of the rights & safety of its citizens, whether that’s been in food or social justice for example. It has also coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. Never has there been such little conflict in Europe probably since civilization first arrived in Europe. (Can you imagine what’s going to happen with the fisheries if there’s a no deal Brexit?!)
I could go on all night about examples of where the EU benefits us all. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal and without much of it’s citizens rights & protections guaranteed then the UK population will be left to the mercy of the types of leaders like Farrage & Boris Johnson. I know what I feel more happy with, do you?
The fact is that the electorate of each EU country gets to vote for their politicians who govern for them. It has been clear to the voters what they have been intending to do in respect of the EU and even now the electorate of each EU member state can vote for a political party who wants out of the EU. In other words, Brussels is no more or less democratic than Westminster. Well actually, at least most EU member states have proportional representation in their country so I wouldn’t want to say the EU is quite as undemocratic as that...
I’d agree that some things are wrong in the EU. For example, it’s ridiculous that we poison our farmland after every harvest or allow ourselves to be lobbied (some say bribed) and have our policies influenced by large profit making industries whose only interest is greed.
On the other hand, what’s the alternative? Somehow I can’t see the likes of a Farrage or Boris being champions of social justice and sustainable technologies. To think Britain will be better off outside the EU is absurd. The EU has done so much good for society in general. One of the main successes of the EU for example is its protecting of the rights & safety of its citizens, whether that’s been in food or social justice for example. It has also coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. Never has there been such little conflict in Europe probably since civilization first arrived in Europe. (Can you imagine what’s going to happen with the fisheries if there’s a no deal Brexit?!)
I could go on all night about examples of where the EU benefits us all. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal and without much of it’s citizens rights & protections guaranteed then the UK population will be left to the mercy of the types of leaders like Farrage & Boris Johnson. I know what I feel more happy with, do you?
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I've been trying to think of one solution for three years but if you had to say the UK has left the EU this is the best solution -
but have combined the thinking that I don't think many people would accept this.- - and I mean both Remain and Leave, if not immediately , after a short amount of time.
I don't see any way how the UK can leave the customs union. (The Irish border is an added complication that other countries wouldn't have to solve)
I've said a few times - the genie's out of the bottle and I don't see a way of putting it back in.
Have a feeling Boris will find a way to crash out next month.
It has been the best option since day 1 for me and something similar nearly passed through the commons on a couple of occasions. The no deal lunatics wouldn’t like it but they’re heavily outnumbered and even the most stubborn remainers would have to just grow up.
After that you can factually state you’re out of the EU and Brexit fatigue would do the rest.
Except for the fact that, what we would be left with is clearly worse than what we have now.
I'd like you to read these 2 articles and then explain to me again exactly why I should be prepared to die, to defend BJ's right to say what he wants. let's see what you've got.
'Abuse is virtually constant': female MPs speak about the threats they face
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-female-mps-speak-about-the-threats-they-face
Daughter of Yvette Cooper speaks of fear for her mother's safety
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-cooper-speaks-of-fear-for-her-mothers-safety
@finneh waiting for your response .....
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But maybe not what we would be stuck with in the future, depending on how you see things panning out in the EU