Westminster Politics



I think most won't be surprised to know I'm not the biggest fan of Mr Jones

But still stuff like this needs to be clamped down on

I do worry about things getting out of hand during the impending referendum / election
 
sun_tzu said:


I think most won't be surprised to know I'm not the biggest fan of Mr Jones

But still stuff like this needs to be clamped down on

I do worry about things getting out of hand during the impending referendum / election
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We had a sitting politician executed in the street in no small part to rhetoric fuelled extremist views and still these cnuts follow the same playbook. It'll need to get worse than Jo Cox before you get anything other than lip service from people like Johnson.
 
Adisa said:
Still vote for the Tories en masse.

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My favourite graph
q7micql.png
 
berbatrick said:
https://medium.com/@nick.barlow/the-centrist-fallacy-43434642cb00

A good analysis of what centrism means in practice, to people who describe themselves as such
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I think to many the word centrist is more about what they aren't rather than what they are, that is they may naturally tend to the left but are not marxists, or to the right but are not Thatcherites. Not sure the questions allowed for that. It doesn't help that the description Liberal means different things to different people, for instance I ignore the American influence, but to younger people it's the norm. It's telling where the author says 'liberal is in the name after all', yeah, but does it mean to them what it means to the author?
 


I don't think it will work at all(Thankfully). The people in the US who lap up this culture war shite aren't poor working class white(Not to mention the countless differences between the US and the UK) but suburban boomers with nothing to do all day except to watch television.
 
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Seeing videos of feeble middle class people chanting Jeremy Corbyns name to the tune of a football chant is the funniest thing in 2019 so far.
 
Posted at 8:338:33
Hammond vows 'fight of a lifetime' if deselected
8016b458-9b55-4fc1-956a-a74580075f20.jpg

Today Programme

BBC Radio 4

Philip Hammond has said he was readopted as the Conservative candidate for his constituency last night, despite the PM warning Tory MPs who rebelled against the government that they would be deselected.

Mr Hammond said he does not believe the government would have the power to stop him from running as a Conservative candidate for Runnymede and Weybridge.

"There would certainly be the fight of a lifetime if they tried to," he added.

He said the issue could "possibly" become a legal battle.

"This is my party. I have been a member of this party for 45 years. I am going to defend my party against incomers, entryists, who are trying to turn it from a broad church into a narrow faction."
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well that's going to be interesting - legal challenges over de-selection

the whole political chess would be more interesting though if it wasnt for the nagging worry of another jo cox moment in what looks like its going to be a very divisive election
 
Hephaestus said:
Can't blame her. Will be an easy pickup for Labour, was a strong remain area and they were close in 2017.
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wouldnt they vote for somebody who wants to remain then - like the remain alliance candidate that will be put forward rather than the we will negotiate a currently undefined brexit deal that we may then fight for or against in a referendum candidate?
 
sun_tzu said:
wouldnt they vote for somebody who wants to remain then - like the remain alliance candidate that will be put forward rather than the we will negotiate a currently undefined brexit deal that we may then fight for or against in a referendum candidate?
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Reckon there will be a surge for the Lib Dems but they were a long way back in 2017 and it's likely to stay a two horse fight. If the choice is between a Tory who wants no-deal brexit and a Labour candidate who rules it out, the latter will likely win comfortably. Greening only just held on and she was a moderate Tory who wanted to remain.
 
sun_tzu said:
wouldnt they vote for somebody who wants to remain then - like the remain alliance candidate that will be put forward rather than the we will negotiate a currently undefined brexit deal that we may then fight for or against in a referendum candidate?
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If a voter wants a referendum and Labour promise a referendum then why would they care?
 
Drifter said:
They have never been the same since tasting power as a coalition.
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The Orange Book from the early 2000's.

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/07/liberal-democrats-cable-davey-swinson

The foundations for Tory–Lib Dem coalition were laid in 2004 when Lib Dem–backing hedge fund boss Paul Marshall and Lib Dem MP David Laws edited the “Orange Book,” a collection of policy essays written by Nick Clegg and other leading party lights. The Orange Book aimed to pull the Lib Dems rightwards, away from what they called “soggy socialism and corporatism.” Inside, Laws called the NHS a “second-rate, centralised, state monopoly service,” and said, “private sector providers are more efficient than the NHS.” As well as arguing for “more competition within the NHS,” the authors called for more private prisons and Royal Mail privatization.

While Lib Dems claim they were a moderating influence on the Tories in coalition, their Orange Book values meant they were more than compatible as a partner. In government, the party was an enthusiastic proponent of the idea that the financial crisis had been caused by excessive government spending, turning a crisis created by bankers and speculators onto public sector workers.

But, after all, a lot of people who consider themselves progressive vote for the Lib Dems. And these policies didn’t meet with approval. After the coalition’s austerity, voters either rejected them for Labour or went for the real thing and voted Tory instead. In 2015 the Lib Dems were reduced from fifty-seven MPs to eight. In 2017, Nick Clegg himself was turfed out of parliament — before heading off to make his millions as Facebook’s head of PR (standing up, no doubt, to the company’s excesses).

The Orange Book caucus hasn’t gone away, though. The new Liberal Democratic leader Jo Swinson took over as employment minister in 2012, when he was promoted to energy minister. On her Lib Dem leadership campaign website Swinson claims that “as Minister for Employment Relations” she delivered “a fairer deal for workers.” She will, she says promisingly, “build an economy that puts people and the planet first.”

But as a minister, Swinson intensified the attack on workers’ rights. In 2012, Swinson was boasting about “the direct benefits to business of extending the qualifying period for unfair dismissal.” She then made things much worse: she introduced charges of up to £1,200 for the privilege of attending an employment tribunal, placing justice even further out of reach for workers.

In 2017 the Supreme Court decided Swinson’s fees scheme “prevents access to justice and is therefore unlawful.” The judges agreed with the long-running legal case brought by trade union Unison, who argued that the number of people going to tribunals had dropped by 79 percent because people were being priced out of justice. The government cancelled Swinson’s fees and agreed to pay back the £32 million wrongly charged to workers who made it through the maze.

This wasn’t even the full extent of Swinson’s contributions in office. In 2013, she said zero-hour contracts offered “helpful flexibility for the employee” and were a “useful tool for flexibility in employment” while ruling out introducing a ban. In fact, as minister, Swinson oversaw the introduction of new legislation formalizing flexible working hours. She also came out strongly against increasing the minimum wage, going so far as to suggest it should be frozen or even cut if there was another downturn. Maybe it’s no surprise she receives such praise from Corbyn’s staunchest opponents.

The unique conditions of Brexit are giving the Lib Dems the opportunity to rebrand as a reforming, progressive party. The truth is, they are anything but. And it’s long-past time Labour MPs who spend day after day attacking the current leadership devoted a little time to reminding people of that.
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MadMike said:
Yeah, I can see how anything right of Marx can appear Tory. Myopia.
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I used to think 'big tent' politics was one of those trite phrases that politicians used to state the obvious, but now I realise it was a genuine attempt to signal a proper commitment to having a broad appeal. Which is something Labour need to get back, badly. Labour badly needs a Kinnock figure to bring the ideologues back under control.
 
nickm said:
I used to think 'big tent' politics was one of those trite phrases that politicians used to state the obvious, but now I realise it was a genuine attempt to signal a proper commitment to having a broad appeal. Which is something Labour need to get back, badly. Labour badly needs a Kinnock figure to bring the ideologues back under control.
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Yup somebody has to stand up to the momentum lot who call anybody who isn't left of Trotsky a red Tory ... Meh probably easier to just leave them be and make another party the focus of the centre left ground

My gut feel is that if we do leave the EU the libs rebrand as the European democrats on a policy of rejoin and become that party and overtake labour
 
MadMike said:
Yeah, I can see how anything right of Marx can appear Tory. Myopia.
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Firstly yes this is the only correct answer.

But seriously what is the difference between this

The Orange Book aimed to pull the Lib Dems rightwards, away from what they called “soggy socialism and corporatism.” Inside, Laws called the NHS a “second-rate, centralised, state monopoly service,” and said, “private sector providers are more efficient than the NHS.” As well as arguing for “more competition within the NHS,” the authors called for more private prisons and Royal Mail privatization.
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and David Cameron ? And as for the New Labour type, which ones are you talking about ? The ones who have joined the libs or the ones who started their own party with other tories ? If your a ''3rd Way''/New Labour voter and are going to vote in the next election for a liberal party that spent years in government pushing austerity, won't even pretend to work with Labour Party to stop a no deal Brexit because of it's left wing leader and is now in a pact with ''Remain'' tories, what do you expect people to think of you other than at best tory light ?
 
Suicides rates in UK increase to highest level since 2002

https://www.theguardian.com/society...es-in-uk-increase-to-highest-level-since-2002

The rate of suicides in Britain has risen sharply to the highest level since 2002, with men accounting for three-quarters of the number of people who took their own lives last year, official figures show.

A total of 6,507 suicides were registered by coroners in the UK – 11.2 per 100,000 people – in 2018, up 11.8% on the previous year, according to the Office for National Statistics.

Ruth Sutherland, the chief executive of Samaritans, said: “It is extremely worrying that, for the first time in five years, the suicide rate in the UK has increased, with 686 more deaths than in 2017.

“Every single one of these deaths is a tragedy that devastates families, friends and communities. Whilst the overall rise has only been seen this year – and we hope it is not the start of a longer-term trend – it’s crucial to have a better understanding of why there has been such an increase.

“We know that suicide is not inevitable; it is preventable, and encouraging steps have been made to prevent suicide, but we need to look at suicide as a serious public health issue.”

According to statisticians, the rise in suicides in 2018 was largely driven by an increase among men, who took their own lives at a rate of 17.2 per 100,000, compared with 15.5 in 2017.

The overall increase was statistically significant and reversed a trend of continuous decline since 2013, according to Nick Stripe, the head of health analysis and life events at the ONS.

People aged 45 to 59 had the highest rates of suicide, at 27.1 per 100,000 for men and 9.2 per 100,000 for women. Stripe also pointed to big increases in the rate of suicide among young people.

The rate among 20- to 24-year-old males leapt 31% to 16.9 per 100,000, from 12.9 a year earlier. Among females aged 10 to 24, despite a low number of suicides overall, the rate rose to its highest level, 3.3 per 100,000.

Scotland had the highest suicide rate in Britain, with 16.1 deaths per 100,000 people (784 deaths), followed by Wales with 12.8 per 100,000 (349 deaths) and England the lowest with 10.3 deaths per 100,000 (5,021 deaths). The rates for Northern Ireland will be published later this year.

Outside Scotland, the area with the highest suicide rate for men was the north-east, with 20.4 per 100,000 taking their own lives; for women it was Wales that had the highest rate, at 6.9 per 100,000. London and the south-east had the lowest rates for both sexes.

The ONS said the exact reasons for the rise were unknown but that changes made in the last year to the way coroners record such deaths may be a factor.

In July 2018 the standard of proof used by coroners to determine whether a death was suicide was lowered from beyond reasonable doubt – the same standard as a criminal trial – to the balance of probabilities.

Stripe said: “Looking at the overall trend since the early 80s, we are still witnessing a gradual decline in the rate of suicide for the population as a whole. We will continue to monitor the recent increase, to help inform decision makers and others that are working to protect vulnerable people at risk.”
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Sweet Square said:
But seriously what is the difference between this and David Cameron? And as for the New Labour type, which ones are you talking about ? The ones who have joined the libs or the ones who started their own party with other tories ? If your a ''3rd Way''/New Labour voter and are going to vote in the next election for a liberal party that spent years in government pushing austerity, won't even pretend to work with Labour Party to stop a no deal Brexit because of it's left wing leader and is now in a pact with ''Remain'' tories, what do you expect people to think of you other than at best tory light ?
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Well, that's a lot of questions in one paragraph...

I'm talking about both of them.

I see Lib Dems ready to work with Labour to stop a no deal Brexit, that's what's happening today. They're just not ready to support a Labour govt yet, not unless left with no other option and maybe not even then. Hasn't even come to that yet (no VONC or post-GE hung parliament) so we don't know.

The difference in welfare policy between current Lib Dems and centre-right Tories is, a relatively small one. They have some divergence in other economic policies and rather large divergence in other policies. So if your interpretation of political parties is done solely on the basis of welfare economics, you wouldn't be far off labelling Lib Dems as Tory light. Your opinion on Lib Dems is predicated by the subject that you're most concerned about but it's not all-encompassing.

I'm not sure to what extent Lib Dems will enter pact with remain Tories. Sounds like made up horseshit to me that makes no sense. Because the only real remain Tories are the ones who will vote for the law tonight, anyone else who doesn't stick their neck out can't be counted on. Those who do vote for it, are likely to be deselected. Therefore their options are to either stand down, stand as independent, or join the Lib Dems. I can't see Lib Dems risking supporting "remain" MPs who didn't vote for the law, when it could deliver BoJo an outright majority and give him the license to do whatever the feck he pleases with the consent of cowardly MPs.
 
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MadMike said:
I see Lib Dems ready to work with Labour to stop a no deal Brexit, that's what's happening today. They're just not ready to support a Labour govt yet, not unless left with no other option and maybe not even then. Hasn't even come to that yet (no VONC or post-GE hung parliament) so we don't know.
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?

So that will be a no.

MadMike said:
The difference in welfare policy between current Lib Dems and centre-right Tories is, a relatively small one. They have some divergence in other economic policies and rather large divergence in other policies. So if your interpretation of political parties is done solely on the basis of welfare economics, you wouldn't be far off labelling Lib Dems as Tory light. Your opinion on Lib Dems is predicated by the subject that you're most concerned about but it's not all-encompassing.
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It's not just welfare state - Jo Swinson on workers rights

The new Liberal Democratic leader Jo Swinson took over as employment minister in 2012, when he was promoted to energy minister. On her Lib Dem leadership campaign website Swinson claims that “as Minister for Employment Relations” she delivered “a fairer deal for workers.” She will, she says promisingly, “build an economy that puts people and the planet first.”

But as a minister, Swinson intensified the attack on workers’ rights. In 2012, Swinson was boasting about “the direct benefits to business of extending the qualifying period for unfair dismissal.” She then made things much worse: she introduced charges of up to £1,200 for the privilege of attending an employment tribunal, placing justice even further out of reach for workers.

In 2017 the Supreme Court decided Swinson’s fees scheme “prevents access to justice and is therefore unlawful.” The judges agreed with the long-running legal case brought by trade union Unison, who argued that the number of people going to tribunals had dropped by 79 percent because people were being priced out of justice. The government cancelled Swinson’s fees and agreed to pay back the £32 million wrongly charged to workers who made it through the maze.

This wasn’t even the full extent of Swinson’s contributions in office. In 2013, she said zero-hour contracts offered “helpful flexibility for the employee” and were a “useful tool for flexibility in employment” while ruling out introducing a ban. In fact, as minister, Swinson oversaw the introduction of new legislation formalizing flexible working hours. She also came out strongly against increasing the minimum wage, going so far as to suggest it should be frozen or even cut if there was another downtur
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Christ! She doesn't even like badgers for feck sake

Swinson is open to concerns that she sometimes seems to support climate action in principle but oppose it in practice. In 2012 she voted to create a Green Investment Bank; yet that same year she voted against making the bank help cut UK emissions in line with the law.

She voted for 2008’s Climate Change Act and wants to make companies report on climate risks. Yet in 2013 she opposed setting CO2 targets per unit of electricity and voted against closing a loophole on fossil fuel plants’ emissions standards.

Swinson claims she has “campaigned tirelessly to save our environment” since childhood and believes “the economy must work for the planet”.

Yet on key green issues like the badger cull, high-speed rail and renewables subsidies, Swinson has repeatedly voted with the government and against environmentalists.

In 2009 she founded a parliamentary group on wellbeing economics; in 2011 she voted to sell off England’s forests. And she has consistently voted against curbing the UK’s ballooning rail fares.

https://theecologist.org/2019/jul/29/jo-swinson-fracking-and-social-justice
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There's really no reason for the more liberal/blairite people to vote lib dem other than them finally showing their true colours(Again Blair even voted Labour in 2017).
What meaningful differences are you talking about ?
 
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esmufc07 said:
Just looking at the Labour Front bench. It's truly depressing. Not sure who the worst is. I'll go for Burgon.
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At least they'd give Greenwood more than ten minutes.
 
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