Westminster Politics

Ultimate Grib said:
The fact that it’s Brexit :confused:

Isn’t it clear enough yet that remainers hate Brexit?
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Honest question if we invented a stop brexit button, which stops the whole process now and the country carries on as if 2016 referendum didn't happen. Would you press it ? Do you hate Brexit so much that you want to throw the whole democratic process.

Because if your answer is yes, then there is nothing the labour party can or should do to win you over.

The fact is if you want to remain in the EU, you are going to have to win another referendum.
Paul the Wolf said:
;)

On a serious note, you do realise that the Labour suggested deal is impossible and isn't a soft Brexit anyway. The only soft Brexit is remaining in the (not a) custom's union and in (not access to) the single market with the four freedoms included plus the contributions and no vote.
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Tusk welcomed it

Tusk suggested the Corbyn plan “might be a promising way out of the impasse,” the senior EU official said.

https://www.politico.eu/article/don...-could-break-brexit-withdrawal-plan-deadlock/
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Although I image that was more to put pressure on May at the time. Plus I wouldn't image Labour would get 100% the deal they wanted(the EU isn't exactly friendly towards socialist). The best deal was always the one the country had before it voted to leave.
 
Sweet Square said:
Tusk welcomed it

Although I image that was more to put pressure on May at the time. Plus I wouldn't image Labour would get 100% the deal they wanted(the EU isn't exactly friendly towards socialist). The best deal was always the one the country had before it voted to leave.
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Yes they would welcome a chance to discuss the UK remaining in the CU and SM which is a vague possibility with Labour showing a sign that they are actually sort of interested. It was just a slightly more positive approach than May and could have been a basis for the start of discussions. But Labour ruling out freedom of movement and the UK making their own deals whilst being in a customs union with the EU wouldn't happen. The only way of keeping the same benefits of the EU is by being in it, which should be obvious to most people.

I think the EU would rather favour a socialist government than a populist nationalistic RW government.
 
Sweet Square said:
''Shakes fist''

Dam white text !


Lets give it some time.

But no really remain people are still getting a referendum no ? And then it will be a labour deal(which if its any different than what the tories got will just be a soft brexit)vs remain with no deal off the table.

What to hate about that ?
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We don't know whether a Labour deal is possible and we don't know what would be in it if it was? You are asking remainers to trust Labour when they have no reason to.
 
Sweet Square said:
the fact is if you want to remain in the EU, you are going to have to win another referendum
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... Which requires politicians prepared to advocate for a remain position, rather more vocally than the Labour leadership did the last time.
 
Kentonio said:
The government just announced over £2b to be spent on PLANNING for a no deal Brexit that hardly anyone wants and might still not happen. If it does happen it will likely cost the country tens of billions.

What the feck is the point of talking about normal policies, all of which will require spending to make up for the drain caused by Tory austerity, if we’re just going to wave through something that will guarantee the money just isn’t there for any of them?
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Quite agree and you are totally correct.
The money that Brexit is going to cost this country simply to try to fulfil some unattainable pipe dream is frankly obscene.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes they would welcome a chance to discuss the UK remaining in the CU and SM which is a vague possibility with Labour showing a sign that they are actually sort of interested. It was just a slightly more positive approach than May and could have been a basis for the start of discussions. But Labour ruling out freedom of movement and the UK making their own deals whilst being in a customs union with the EU wouldn't happen. The only way of keeping the same benefits of the EU is by being in it, which should be obvious to most people.

I think the EU would rather favour a socialist government than a populist nationalistic RW government.
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You and I know that this is not going to happen.
 
nickm said:
We don't know whether a Labour deal is possible and we don't know what would be in it if it was? You are asking remainers to trust Labour when they have no reason to.
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Remember they refused to join the remain alliance in the recent by election (all other remain parties withdrew to increase the libs chances of winning)
 
Rumour from Westminster is Boris to have a vote on an election on or around 4th September with an election around 17th October
Apparrently keen to get the election started before labour conference to ensure he's up against Corbyn and his unicorns
 
nickm said:
... Which requires politicians prepared to advocate for a remain position, rather more vocally than the Labour leadership did the last time.
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You must have missed the memo. It's 'Remain and Reform' now.

The movement has moved on from rating the austerity enforcing, migrant drowning at 10/10 and not a decimal lower. It's still perfect but in need of serious reform.
 
sun_tzu said:
Rumour from Westminster is Boris to have a vote on an election on or around 4th September with an election around 17th October
Apparrently keen to get the election started before labour conference to ensure he's up against Corbyn and his unicorns
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It will also give McDonnell and Corbyn the chance to make up a fudgy manifesto of their own without a load of recent conference resolutions to swerve around. Whatever it is I doubt it will go down well anyway.

And if fudgy isn't a word I claim it.
 
711 said:
It will also give McDonnell and Corbyn the chance to make up a fudgy manifesto of their own without a load of recent conference resolutions to swerve around. Whatever it is I doubt it will go down well anyway.

And if fudgy isn't a word I claim it.
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Very much part of the gaming through strategy that has gone on within team boris I'm told
 
Dobba said:
You must have missed the memo. It's 'Remain and Reform' now.

The movement has moved on from rating the austerity enforcing, migrant drowning at 10/10 and not a decimal lower. It's still perfect but in need of serious reform.
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Funny how other EU countries didn’t have austerity, given that it was ‘enforced’ and all..
 
711 said:
It will also give McDonnell and Corbyn the chance to make up a fudgy manifesto of their own without a load of recent conference resolutions to swerve around. Whatever it is I doubt it will go down well anyway.

And if fudgy isn't a word I claim it.
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That part will be fine to be honest - McDonnell's economic measures are close to about the only interesting thing about the party right now and they tend to do alright when they go into campaign mode. Can't see them winning due to the electoral math right enough.
 
Kentonio said:
Funny how other EU countries didn’t have austerity, given that it was ‘enforced’ and all..
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Just some examples other than Greece


Spain -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...-austerity-measures-leave-patients-suffering/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/01/spain-pain-austerity-deepens

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/11/mariano-rajoy-spain-65bn-cuts

Ireland -

https://www-cdn.oxfam.org/s3fs-publ...-austerity-inequality-ireland-120913-en_0.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/sep/23/ireland-austerity-budgets-comment

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/jobstown-not-guilty-ireland-water-privatization-austerity

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/a-brief-history-of-water-charges-in-ireland-1.2007574



Similar to how leave voters have been radicalised to go along with No Deal, there is a section of the Remain vote that has been through a similar process and now views the EU as some ''left'' safe heaven, that protects the working people of Europe.

European nationalism is no better or different than any other form of nationalism.
 
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Sweet Square said:
Just some examples other than Greece


Spain -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...-austerity-measures-leave-patients-suffering/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/01/spain-pain-austerity-deepens

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/11/mariano-rajoy-spain-65bn-cuts

Ireland -

https://www-cdn.oxfam.org/s3fs-publ...-austerity-inequality-ireland-120913-en_0.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/sep/23/ireland-austerity-budgets-comment

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/04/jobstown-not-guilty-ireland-water-privatization-austerity

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/a-brief-history-of-water-charges-in-ireland-1.2007574

Similar to how leave voters have been radicalised to go along with No Deal, there is a section of the Remain vote that has been through a similar process and now views the EU as some ''left'' safe heaven, that protects the working people of Europe.

European nationalism is no better or different than any other form of nationalism.
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The claim was that the EU forced austerity on its members. This claim is completely false, and obviously so given that many EU countries didn’t have austerity measures.

There’s plenty of flaws in the EU system, without just making up lies about it.
 
Kentonio said:
The claim was that the EU forced austerity on its members. This claim is completely false.
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From the links I posted.

In November 2010, the Irish government agreed to introduce domestic water charges in return for its €85 billion bailout from the European Union and International Monetary Fund. Meters were to be installed throughout the country, households were expected to pay an extra €500 per year for water usage, and responsibility for water infrastructure would be transferred from local authorities to the semi-state company Irish Water.
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And

Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy on Wednesday announced sweeping cuts and tax increases totalling €65bn (£51bn) in austerity measures that opposition politicians warned would sink Spain further into recession.

In a spectacular U-turn, Rajoy raised sales tax by three percentage points, contradicting his government's insistence that this would damage consumer spending, strangle growth and punish the poor.

He also cut unemployment payments, pledged to bring forward a move to retirement at 68 years old and reduced civil service pay. Promised changes to energy laws looked likely to increase electricity tariffs.

The measures came the day after a leaked memorandum of agreement between eurozone countries and Spain revealed strict conditions for a banking bailout of up to €100bn.


That memorandum insisted that Spain comply with the recommendations made by Brussels to cut a deficit that reached 8.9% of GDP last year.
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Kentonio said:
obviously so given that many EU countries didn’t have austerity measures.
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This is very bizarre way to judge austerity in the EU.
 
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Dobba said:
You must have missed the memo. It's 'Remain and Reform' now.

The movement has moved on from rating the austerity enforcing, migrant drowning at 10/10 and not a decimal lower. It's still perfect but in need of serious reform.
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Whatever. We all know the moment Jezza comes out for remain, or there’s a Lib-lab pact after the next election, you’ll be on here talking about it almost like it was your idea.
 
nickm said:
Whatever. We all know the moment Jezza comes out for remain, or there’s a Lib-lab pact after the next election, you’ll be on here talking about it almost like it t was your idea.
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If there is any link between Labour and the Lib Dems, I'll certainly be on here saying something. It sure as shit wouldn't be that it was my idea.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Agreed.
Prediction: Corbyn (if he's still leader) calls a vote of no confidence some weeks or months after the UK have left the EU and it's become clear, even to those less intellectually gifted, that the UK has made an enormous error.
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I'm just running the dates through in mind but if he calls a vote of no confidence on the first day parliament sits that's 5th September (rumours are Boris will call for a ge on the 4th anyway)

But assuming he calls for a vote on the 5th... The house debates and votes on the 6th

Assuming the motion of no confidence carries the government then have 14 days in which to form new alliences to secure a majority

Assuming that fails we are on September 20th... And then an election is called ... This takes 6 weeks therefore it's November and we have already left with no deal

Not backing the libs no confidence motion before parliament broke up ensured a hard brexit was something parliament couldn't stop
 
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sun_tzu said:
I'm just running the dates through in mind but if he calls a vote of no confidence on the first day parliament sits that's 5th September (rumours are Boris will call for a ge on the 4th anyway)

But assuming he calls for a vote on the 5th... The house debates and votes on the 6th

Assuming the motion of no confidence carries the government then have 14 days in which to form new alliences to secure a majority

Assuming that fails we are on September 20th... And then an election is called ... This takes 6 weeks therefore it's November and we have already left with no deal
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I don't know the time necessary but I read somewhere that a VONC would have had to have been called before the recess to enable a debate on the date they return (but don't know if that's correct).

What I don't get is why Boris would call an election before Brexit and I suspect Corbyn wants to wait until after Brexit to call a VONC.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I don't know the time necessary but I read somewhere that a VONC would have had to have been called before the recess to enable a debate on the date they return (but don't know if that's correct).

What I don't get is why Boris would call an election before Brexit and I suspect Corbyn wants to wait until after Brexit to call a VONC.
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If you call an election before brexit it becomes a defacto 2nd referendum... Only there is one party that says leave... Several that are remain and one who mutter something about unicorns and Jews...
Basically if the leave vote holds string you get a big majority in first pars the post

An election after brexit... Especially assuming there are some brexit issues over a hard brexit seems a lot harder to win.

And holding power with a majority of one seems a non starter

Politically the best move is blame the EU and the remoaner MP's for blocking the will of the people... Whip up some hate and win a landslide majority
 
sun_tzu said:
If you call an election before brexit it becomes a defacto 2nd referendum... Only there is one party that says leave... Several that are remain and one who mutter something about unicorns and Jews...
Basically if the leave vote holds string you get a big majority in first pars the post

An election after brexit... Especially assuming there are some brexit issues over a hard brexit seems a lot harder to win.

And holding power with a majority of one seems a non starter

Politically the best move is blame the EU and the remoaner MP's for blocking the will of the people... Whip up some hate and win a landslide majority
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But if he holds an election beforehand he's got the Brexit Party and the LibDems as adversaries but if he waits until after Brexit the BP is irrelevant, the LibDems on a Remain platform (too late) and poor old dithering Jeremy.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But if he holds an election beforehand he's got the Brexit Party and the LibDems as adversaries but if he waits until after Brexit the BP is irrelevant, the LibDems on a Remain platform (too late) and poor old dithering Jeremy.
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Brexit party have pledged that provided Boris puts no deal on 31st in his manifesto they won't put up any MPs and will campaign for the conservatives
 
Paul the Wolf said:
When did they say that (would anyone believe a word Farage says )

Saw this
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...encies-amid-fears-of-split-vote-a4205031.html
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I heard farrage say it in in choppers podcast

That said he's never got on well with Cummings so there could be a snag there

. “Cummings didn’t want a full Brexit,” Farage told me earlier this week. “For him, the referendum was a means of forcing a Leave vote that would lead to the creation of a sort of associate membership of the EU. I don’t assume that view has changed. He seems now to be instructing Johnson with the line that ‘we are the Conservative Party, we can crush the Brexit Party and hold the pro-Leave ground.’ I think he is mistaken.”
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Gut feel though brexit party know the best route to brexit is Boris in power so I think they would come to an agreement... Especially as they possibly don't have the on the ground structure to fight a ge
 
Sweet Square said:
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I imagine they'll be a lot of politics played over this and it'll be who backs down first. If the Lib Dems refuse to block no deal because it would be Corbyn leading a caretaker government they'll be wiped out.

It's the Tories who may not bend as they'll lose their seats. If it takes a Clarke led government to stop Brexit i hope Labour concede but they should try and force a Labour led government first.
 
Would be funny if the Lib Dems blow their only chance at redemption.
 
I honestly don't really know where my vote is going.

Tories - Never
Lib Dems - Seem to be buttering up a colation with the Tories
Labour - Bloody useless and hate Corbyns position on Brexit
Green - Throwaway vote

It's abysmal. I was probably going to vote Lib Dems but Jo Swinson's words since becoming leader doesn't strike me with any confidence. Sigh.
 
Smores said:
It's the Tories who may not bend as they'll lose their seats. If it takes a Clarke led government to stop Brexit i hope Labour concede but they should try and force a Labour led government first.
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How about a starmer or Watson led labour government / coalition... Think Corbyn would back down for that?
 
RedSky said:
I honestly don't really know where my vote is going.

Tories - Never
Lib Dems - Seem to be buttering up a colation with the Tories
Labour - Bloody useless and hate Corbyns position on Brexit
Green - Throwaway vote

It's abysmal. I was probably going to vote Lib Dems but Jo Swinson's words since becoming leader doesn't strike me with any confidence. Sigh.
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It's simple since you accept that Tories should not be in charge. Vote tactically in your area to keep them out.

There'll be a site up again near election time to advise people on how to vote to achieve just that.
 
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sun_tzu said:
How about a starmer or Watson led labour government / coalition... Think Corbyn would back down for that?
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Don't think Labour would fall for that trap to be honest. Far worse than Clarke or Grieve in my view.
 
Smores said:
Don't think Labour would fall for that trap to be honest. Far worse than Clarke or Grieve in my view.
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So you recon Corbyn would rather let a hard brexit happen than allow an interim government lead by a labour MP take charge becuase said MP might be seen as a Blairite. (I thought they would do anything in their power to prevent a hard Tory brexit)

Is this Standing up not standing by or a straight talking honest politics... its so hard to keep track these days

Jeremy-Corbyn-659933.jpg


GettyImages-490521592.jpg
 
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I'm confused by the whole fecking lot of them now. Everybody just seems to be winging it with a vague plan on what to actually do.
 
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