Wesley Sneijder

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The current Barca team are streets ahead. They still will be by the end of the season.

Global success is not instant. He's finding a longer term solution to overcoming them. We can't compete with them right now, for the reasons that they've hit gold with a number of players from their youth set-up, and they have more money to splash.
 
Wayne_Rooney said:
They can beat them. However it's clear that Barcelona at this point are the comfortably better side.

I'm using it to prove that no Sneijder will help us win the CL. We need to wait for our next gen of players to develop and then we'll have an experienced group of players.

SAF won't back down from a challenge. Do you think he would sign Jones, De Gea and Young if he wanted to dominate the CL this season? He's planning for the future.
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That's completely against the philosophy of the club.

Ferguson has spoken of trying to break the "4 year cycle".

By waiting for this current crop to mature and become experienced, you are losing the experience of Ferdinand, Vidic, Park, Carrick, Evra, Giggs, Owen and Berbatov.

Then, when these young players are older and have experience we might get success for a season or two, but then it passes and we wait for the next lot. Exactly what Wenger tried to do and failed miserably at. You need the balance, use the experience of your older players with the youth, hunger and energy of your younger players. Then the younger players become experienced and you get a new wave of younger players.

Players with potential --> Players at their peak --> players with experience.

Ferguson is looking to always keep a balance of all three and in doing so, keep a consistently successful club.

That's why a player like Sneijder fits in now, it's not about buying all the best players like City are trying, it's about picking one area, one role, that needs strengthening now in order to make sure your success continues.

Keeping our success going is more beneficial to our young players than games. Growing as a player in a successful, winning, environment is very important. Success breeds success. It's why Ferguson put so much emphasis on the League Cup win in 2006 and he was right, they just needed to win a trophy and we went on from there.


You don't "wait for players to develop", if they are getting in the side now, it's because Ferguson believes they are good enough to win us things.
 
As Fergie said, our philosophy is to prioritise our own youngsters and give them the best chance of making it here. Matt Busby showed him the way and it is something that he will continue to do himself. As Fergie pointed out at one point this summer, how are our youngsters ever going to get a chance if we keep bringing in new players ahead of them?
 
pocco said:
As Fergie said, our philosophy is to prioritise our own youngsters and give them the best chance of making it here. Matt Busby showed him the way and it is something that he will continue to do himself. As Fergie pointed out at one point this summer, how are our youngsters ever going to get a chance if we keep bringing in new players ahead of them?
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Yep poor Rafael, Fabio, Cleverley and Hernandez never get any chances :(
 
pocco said:
As Fergie said, our philosophy is to prioritise our own youngsters and give them the best chance of making it here. Matt Busby showed him the way and it is something that he will continue to do himself. As Fergie pointed out at one point this summer, how are our youngsters ever going to get a chance if we keep bringing in new players ahead of them?
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You should support Arsenal. If you've learnt nothing from their success over the past 7 years, you'd fit right in with Wengers youngster program.

Success breeds success in the same vein that older players add experience. You cannot solely rely on younger players.
 
If you don't think Fergie is prioritising youngsters then why, in recent games as he started Welbeck ahead of Berbatov, and Cleverley instead of a more safe option of Carrick/Giggs. Same with Anderson.

I'm not saying an Arsenal approach. But if we want a spell of dominance like Barca we need to start from young, keep them here and work them up with a combination of experience and new signings.
 
Wayne_Rooney said:
If you don't think Fergie is prioritising youngsters then why, in recent games as he started Welbeck ahead of Berbatov, and Cleverley instead of a more safe option of Carrick/Giggs. Same with Anderson.

I'm not saying an Arsenal approach. But if we want a spell of dominance like Barca we need to start from young, keep them here and work them up with a combination of experience and new signings.
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Have you had a look who they're playing with?
 
pocco said:
As Fergie said, our philosophy is to prioritise our own youngsters and give them the best chance of making it here. Matt Busby showed him the way and it is something that he will continue to do himself. As Fergie pointed out at one point this summer, how are our youngsters ever going to get a chance if we keep bringing in new players ahead of them?
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You need the right combination of youngsters and experienced players in your team. Otherwise we turn out like Arsenal by bottling the big games.
 
Corriere dello Sport saying the "personal reasons" were actually family reasons and there's speculation that it could be with regards to his marriage being in trouble.
 
RDCR07 said:
You need the right combination of youngsters and experienced players in your team. Otherwise we turn out like Arsenal by bottling the big games.
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That argument falls flat on its face given that we have more experience than most clubs.
 
Mad said:
Corriere dello Sport saying the "personal reasons" were actually family reasons and there's speculation that it could be with regards to his marriage being in trouble.
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Problems with his wife caused him to miss a game?!!

Unless he beat the shit out of her, I don't really see that as a good excuse.
 
We've currently have a bunch of midfielders who lack of the consistency to win a first team place. We've also lost 2 players (Hargreaves and Scholes), looks set to lose Gibson and our main creative spark will be soon 38 yrs old.I am all out in favor in using kids but one must have the right balance. If SAF thinks that these kids deserve more first team chances then he should consider selling one of our 'experienced heads' who can't hold a first team place in the first place and not close an eye to a position who IS WEAK.
 
devilish said:
We've currently have a bunch of midfielders who lack of the consistency to win a first team place. We've also lost 2 players (Hargreaves and Scholes), looks set to lose Gibson and our main creative spark will be soon 38 yrs old.I am all out in favor in using kids but one must have the right balance. If SAF thinks that these kids deserve more first team chances then he should consider selling one of our 'experienced heads' who can't hold a first team place in the first place and not close an eye to a position who IS WEAK.
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He'll sort it.
 
marchi-91 said:
You should support Arsenal. If you've learnt nothing from their success over the past 7 years, you'd fit right in with Wengers youngster program.

Success breeds success in the same vein that older players add experience. You cannot solely rely on younger players.
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We have experienced players. I don't see what the problem is. I didn't say don't play them, I just repeated what our manager said with regards to us continuing to buy players for positions where we have young players on the verge of breaking through.
 
RDCR07 said:
You need the right combination of youngsters and experienced players in your team. Otherwise we turn out like Arsenal by bottling the big games.
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Read what I posted above. I know full well that experience is required, I just don't agree that we need to buy players when we have youngsters that are going to need game time in the next season or two.
 
devilish said:
We've currently have a bunch of midfielders who lack of the consistency to win a first team place. We've also lost 2 players (Hargreaves and Scholes), looks set to lose Gibson and our main creative spark will be soon 38 yrs old.I am all out in favor in using kids but one must have the right balance. If SAF thinks that these kids deserve more first team chances then he should consider selling one of our 'experienced heads' who can't hold a first team place in the first place and not close an eye to a position who IS WEAK.
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I'd say Carrick is pretty consistent. Fletcher, when fit, will hopefully return to consistency. Giggs is consistent but can't play every game. Anderson is still young but has made a good start to the season. You'll find that even though you don't trust him to nail down a place, Fergie has the most belief in our players and that is what matters. He'll expect Anderson to come good this season, nothing less will do. You can guarantee that he's challenged these players to stand up and be counted now that Scholes has gone.
 
kietotheworld said:
They are a better side, that's true, and if we signed Sneijder, we wouldn't be a better side than them. I don't understand this thinking though, that if a player won't make us better than Barcelona, we shouldn't sign them. We have a chance of beating Barcelona with our current side, and the more top class players we have, the better our chances become.

If Ferguson is signing players not to win the Champions League then backing down from a challenge is exactly what he's doing. He's either waiting for this Barcelona team's cycle to end (I have my doubts about these cycles he talks about) or he's waiting to retire and let the next guy have a go.
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I have no doubts that we would be a better side with Sneijder. However even if we signed Aguero, or Ronaldo (again), or Messi that wouldn't necessarily make us a better side than Barcelona (save for the fact that Barcelona wouldn't have Messi!).

I agree with you this is the wrong way to look at it. Whoever we sign has to make us a better team as a team not as a group of individuals. I believe Sneijder will help that as (for me) he completes us. Whether he would automatically make us better than Barcelona is neither here nor there.

While I think we could do with a backup left back, a backup left-footed winger in case of an injury crisis - I think the signing of Sneijder would stitch our team together and make us a formidable outfit. It would also give direction to the likes of Cleverley, Morrison & Pogba of the way we want to go i.e. the speed & precision of central midfield is the key thing not necessarily individual flair (although that is nice as well). It is interesting to note that everyone thinks Berbatov is a great player, but he slows our team down and makes us more predictable and pedestrian.

As long as we are going in speed & agility of central midfield direction, then I think we will catch Barcelona and I also think we have other advantages to help us overtake them. I think we have more strength in depth, that our team spirit is unrivalled, that the sports science & technology base is unsurpassed, that our game analysis is unbelievable. So I believe if we catch them in the area of speed & manoeverability of central midfield then we could go past them quickly and start breaking new ground in the arena of European football.

I always try to point out thought that what it takes to with the Premiership is a different game to what it takes to win the CL. In Italy & Spain they don't have to modify their games - it is an extension of the way they play in their respective domestic leagues. In the Premier League to win the Champions League we do have to modify our game. Which makes our achievement of 3 finals in the last 4 so much more remarkable.

With the way that most of the Premierships top 6 are going everybody is looking for signing quick-passing, nimble, first-touch, visionary central midfield players - you name them (Modric, Sneijder, Cleverley (back form loan), Nasri, Romeu, Mata (cld pay central midfield). The only exceptions are Liverpool (Adam and Henderson and I believe they've made a huge gaffe especially with the signing of Henderson) and Spurs with their signing of Diarra - good player but they need a Modric replacement when he leaves.

So I think the signing of Sneijder is important for us for more than 1 reason. I believe he is absolutely the way to go especially if we can get 4-5 good years out of him.
 
pocco said:
Vidic
Ferdinand
Evra
Carrick
Giggs
Fletcher
Rooney
Berbatov
Valencia
Owen

All experienced players that we possess. Most of which make up our 'first team'. So yes he is spot on, but this doesn't mean we need to sign Wesley Sneijder to add experience.
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There's a good chance 6 of those players won't be playing for us in 4 years time. That leaves 3 players, plus Young and Nani who will then be in the category of "experienced".

We have plenty of young players with huge potential and as you have shown, plenty of experience, but as far as a 25 man squad goes, having only 5 players around the 24-27 age mark could hinder our balance in the future. Using Arsenal as the example and warning again, suddenly losing a good set of grounded, older heads around and having a group of talented young players can really effect the squads mentality and it's that mentality and experience that is the difference between forcing yourselves over the line, or collapsing under the pressure of the challenge.
 
pocco said:
Vidic
Ferdinand
Evra
Carrick
Giggs
Fletcher
Rooney
Berbatov
Valencia
Owen

All experienced players that we possess. Most of which make up our 'first team'. So yes he is spot on, but this doesn't mean we need to sign Wesley Sneijder to add experience.
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Berbatov and Owen aren't starters anymore, Fletcher hasn't played in ages and this could well be Giggs' last season.

We've lost a lot of experience in Scholes, Neville and VDS recently and we've not replaced a player of the quality of Scholes.
 
Raoul said:
We have Giggs, Fletcher, Vidic, Rio, Rooney, Owen, Carrick, etc. Plenty of experience there.
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Well the only regular and injury free starters from that list are Rooney, Vidic and maybe Carrick.
 
Youth is the way forward. United have built teams for as long as I can remember.

Sneijder will be a good signing but I'd be far more excited about Nasri or Modric :drool:
 
Plan M said:
Youth is the way forward. United have built teams for as long as I can remember.

Sneijder will be a good signing but I'd be far more excited about Nasri or Modric :drool:
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24 year old Nasri and soon to be 26 year old Modric as opposed to 27 year old Sneijder....
 
pocco said:
I'd say Carrick is pretty consistent. Fletcher, when fit, will hopefully return to consistency. Giggs is consistent but can't play every game. Anderson is still young but has made a good start to the season. You'll find that even though you don't trust him to nail down a place, Fergie has the most belief in our players and that is what matters. He'll expect Anderson to come good this season, nothing less will do. You can guarantee that he's challenged these players to stand up and be counted now that Scholes has gone.
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Anderson was expected to stand up and be counted long ago but he was so far inconsistent. Carrick had been drifting in and out of the game for 2 seasons now. Fletch is solid in what he does (win the ball) but don't expect too much in other areas of his game. Giggs would probably shite on Nasri if he was 6 yrs younger but age is catching up. We need that midfielder who gives us assurances and consistency. A focal point not for the present side but also for the kids who'll be able to learn from him just like Scholes did with Keane. Unfortunately we don't have that. One can argue whether there are quality midfielders available who are ready to sign on our terms. However football wise we should have the consensus on this. CM is WEAK.

If Pogba or Cleverley are good enough then they'll get first team chances whether we sign Sneijder or not. We currently have a star studded defense and yet, we still found space for a relatively inexperienced defender (Smalling) to grow hasn't we? One tend to forget that there was a time when Fletch was considered 5th choice midfielder behind Scholes (in his prime) and new signings Ando, Hargreaves and Carrick. Look at him now. If a player is good enough, he'll get the games especially in our CM who has just lost Scholes/Hargreaves and will in 1 season's time lose Giggs too.
 
Pexbo said:
There's a good chance 6 of those players won't be playing for us in 4 years time. That leaves 3 players, plus Young and Nani who will then be in the category of "experienced".

We have plenty of young players with huge potential and as you have shown, plenty of experience, but as far as a 25 man squad goes, having only 5 players around the 24-27 age mark could hinder our balance in the future. Using Arsenal as the example and warning again, suddenly losing a good set of grounded, older heads around and having a group of talented young players can really effect the squads mentality and it's that mentality and experience that is the difference between forcing yourselves over the line, or collapsing under the pressure of the challenge.
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If some of these 'inexperienced' players such as Anderrson, Hernandez, Rafael and Fabio etc.play for us for the next 4 years, then they'll have good experience. You can't just go off age, look at Fabregas for example.

I don't think Fergie is worried by this and I'm sure he made reference to it earlier in the summer when he said that there is always a new group of players ready to step into the 'experienced' category. That is part of the reason why our players are given game time even when they are still young

wr8_utd said:
Berbatov and Owen aren't starters anymore, Fletcher hasn't played in ages and this could well be Giggs' last season.

We've lost a lot of experience in Scholes, Neville and VDS recently and we've not replaced a player of the quality of Scholes.
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If younger players are preferred to Berbatov and Owen then this shows how much their experience actually matters to the manager. As they say, if they're good enough, then they're old enough.

I'm not going too far into this replacing Scholes business, because there are too many variables. Fergie may believe we have a player ready to do that, or he may think there is nobody capable. Just because you think Sneijder is the only man capable of doing so, it doesn't mean this is fact.
 
Plenty of noise about Sneijder on twitter since this afternoon. Looks like there will be a final attempt to sign the Dutch midfielder with the aid of Nike.
 
devilish said:
Anderson was expected to stand up and be counted long ago but he was so far inconsistent. Carrick had been drifting in and out of the game for 2 seasons now. Fletch is solid in what he does (win the ball) but don't expect too much in other areas of his game. Giggs would probably shite on Nasri if he was 6 yrs younger but age is catching up. We need that midfielder who gives us assurances and consistency. A focal point not for the present side but also for the kids who'll be able to learn from him just like Scholes did with Keane. Unfortunately we don't have that. One can argue whether there are quality midfielders available who are ready to sign on our terms. However football wise we should have the consensus on this. CM is WEAK.

If Pogba or Cleverley are good enough then they'll get first team chances whether we sign Sneijder or not. We currently have a star studded defense and yet, we still found space for a relatively inexperienced defender (Smalling) to grow hasn't we? One tend to forget that there was a time when Fletch was considered 5th choice midfielder behind Scholes (in his prime) and new signings Ando, Hargreaves and Carrick. Look at him now. If a player is good enough, he'll get the games especially in our CM who has just lost Scholes/Hargreaves and will in 1 season's time lose Giggs too.
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So Beppe Rossi would've become the 30 goal a season man he has at Villareal and got loads of chances if he'd have stayed? Gerard Pique certainly would be first choice Spain centre back if he'd have stayed too?

Players develop with experience and if you're not playing games you can't get that. There's no way the two players I just mentioned above would be anywhere near the level they've achieved after leaving United had they been content to appear 10-15 times a season as understudies.

Fletcher is a horrible example to use as Fletcher emerged when Hargreaves got injured: it took the removal of an obstacle to allow him the run of games in the first XI that were required for him to become one of Fergie's big game players.

If you buy Sneijder at least one of Ando, Cleverley or Pogba stagnates unless two out of the three completely outshine him in which case you're left asking why you spent all the money on him in the first place for?

Look at Barcelona they've flourished since putting their trust in Xavi and Iniesta but when Cocu, Davids, Deco etc. were at the club they were seen as bit part players (don't forget Xavi played against United in the 3-3 at the Nou Camp back in 98/99, loyalty alone kept him waiting patiently.) If you don't give players games no matter how good they are they don't develop and its only been as a result of Pep's Catalan's first policy (which also saved Pedro from being sold) that these guys have flourished.

People talk about what we need to do to match Barcelona. For a start we could follow their example of putting some faith in our home grown talents and trying to create a team from our own template instead of trying to graft in big names about whom there is no certainty of seeing gel into the system Sir Alex likes to use.
 
Jaap said:
Plenty of noise about Sneijder on twitter since this afternoon. Looks like there will be a final attempt to sign the Dutch midfielder with the aid of Nike.
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That's the problem with Twitter though isn't it.

Joe Soap tweets that perhaps Nike could help United to find the money to pay for Sneijder, others retweet it in various forms, including the journos who are stuck for something else to concoct that could be seen as remotely believable by the gullible and the next minute it's fact.
 
#07 said:
People talk about what we need to do to match Barcelona. For a start we could follow their example of putting some faith in our home grown talents and trying to create a team from our own template instead of trying to graft in big names about whom there is no certainty of seeing gel into the system Sir Alex likes to use.
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Good post. I think this part is the key.

We will always be a very good team under Sir Alex. However, if he want to match Barca's level it can't be done buying a individual, or two, and having another go next season.

We need to build our own team and give them a lot of playing time. The team against WBA was very different to the team against Barca in the CL.
Barca's current crop are built around a core of players who were developed from very young ages. We have the players to try something similar and we've bought players to strengthen our long term plans.
 
Red Defence said:
That's the problem with Twitter though isn't it.

Joe Soap tweets that perhaps Nike could help United to find the money to pay for Sneijder, others retweet it in various forms, including the journos who are stuck for something else to concoct that could be seen as remotely believable by the gullible and the next minute it's fact.
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The very name of 'Twitter' tells you all you need to know about what you'll derive from it.
 
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