Pogba should not be asked to control the tempo, period. He can do the other two at a high level, and at the same time too, but he's never going to be kante or ozil, nevermind a super-mix of the two
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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No problem with that, but the post I quoted in turn quoted a post about the topic of consistency, ergo a long-term issue. Just like this thread is about "never" going to be able to win the league, not singular games.
Ok, so what is your opinion in it? I'm not trying to be provocative, genuinely interested because I think it's a huge problem in our current setup and I don't know what your viewpoint is. You keep saying you don't agree but I'm not really sure why.
Fair, wanted to expand earlier but I did not have the time.
Don't get me wrong, I still think Pogba is a brilliant footballer with potential generational talent. I also believe he has the ability to play and excel in numerous role and is much less limited in scope than some of the arguments make him out to be. I also believe he needs tough love and less indulgence if he wants to maximize his potential and even though I am not a Mourinho lover I see little in his treatment of Pogba to be overly upset with.
This idea that he has been playing a defensive role is not matching what I am seeing. He still has a lot of freedom to roam and be explosive, often popping up as the closest to the striker with others, Lingard especially, tasked with covering for his runs. I have seen him have great games in a midfield 2 as well as a 3, and stink it up in both roles. Even in a 3 his lack of concentration can be a problem defensively. We can differ in what his best use can be, for me I see a player who can make a massive impact as a box to box force, with potential to reach a higher level in that role than in a more advanced area. It is up to him though, wherever he is played, to use his skills in a more focused way.
His responsibility, that is why I struggle with these ideas that he needs a certain role, with certain insurances around. 2 world class midfielders alongside him to draw attention, yes in a ideal world, but great players should be able to make an impact in less than ideal situations, and because I have such respect for his talent level I don't think we should be making excuses for his failings.
The big issue here is Mourinho's expectations VS Pogba's "intentions".
Recall back the recent comments by Mourinho and all the comments by players who have and are working under him. All basically said one thing, Jose have high and many expectations of 'em all. Mourinho's style is to challenge his players to become better and better. Not every players are in tune with this. He's a hard trainer, and treat every players the same, which can both be a good and bad things in player management.
In his eye, Pogba is not yet the finished article, there is room for growth. His recent comments about the B2B thing and Pogba's position reflects this. His persistence in playing Pogba in midfield two is also a hope of him fulfilling that potential. Here lies the problem.
For a manager of this calibre, Mourinho, he's not that blind in seeing Pogba's inconsistencies. In his first season, he did turned to midfield three after Pogba's bad performances, to retain balance in midfield, but reverted back to midfield two after Pogba "settle down". In this second season, after recruiting Matic who can solo-mid in some games, he then revert back to "train" Pogba in the midfield two, trying to fulfill his potential.
Pogba is a good professional, but everyone knows his character orientation, which reflects and expressed from his football. He himself made comments of his preferences in playing football. Freestyle, freedom, attacking, stylish, entertaining, more on-the-ball football. So, at first, it really is a mismatch with Mourinho's disciplinary and hard approach. Pogba is a happy-go-lucky kind of person, who prefers to play freely. That's just his nature. A total maverick.
After his amazing career with Juventus, Pogba doesn't strike me as a player attempting to improve even further, or at least his motivations for that is no longer that much. His next objectives are more on to winning the big trophies playing for Manchester United. Doesn't strike me as a player seeking to be the best of the best, therefore no need for more improvements, but more of a player satisfied with his footballing capability, which is that top class.
Football skills = Technical skills + Physical skills + Creative skills + Mental skills + Tactical skills.
While everyone knows Pogba have top class technical, creative and physical skills especially, his tactical skills is truly lacking, but no worries, it's coach-able. That's the only thing helding him back in midfield two (plus motivations) - the know how and when to position himself in different phases during matches. Instead, he prefers to go all-out attacking playing freely, stylish football. Understandably, this coincides with his free nature. Still, it's hard to accept his somehow effortless attempts during defensive phase in many matches this season, that costs us points. It's as if the addition of Matic makes him thinks he should no longer try.. and just focus on playing freely. I don't blame him though.
The possible solution here is either...
(1) Mourinho stops coaching him to become a more complete midfielder, which I believe he is pondering, after his public comment in planning to get a midfielder this upcoming summer. But if he do so, then it is saying Pogba is done, can never be the all-time best midfielder. Admit it, many of the best midfielders can play in midfield 2, so why not Pogba? It'll be the most thing which downgrade Pogba - "he can't play in midfield two, so how is he the best". Scholes and Pirlo did it. Of course pairing with a more defensive midfielder, but still they play well compatibly. Now, Pogba have Matic, no more excuses.
(2) Pogba realize this and fulfill his possible "real" potential, to be a more complete midfielder, than what he already is. Dispel the myth of him can't play in midfield two. So what if he's the best in midfield of three, everyone knows that, Pogba knows it, even I'm sure Mourinho knows this. But can he play in two?
Interesting not many people can see the bigger picture of this dilemma. As long as both Mourinho and Pogba doesn't fall-out and retain their professionalism, we'll reap the rewards.
Recall back the recent comments by Mourinho and all the comments by players who have and are working under him. All basically said one thing, Jose have high and many expectations of 'em all. Mourinho's style is to challenge his players to become better and better. Not every players are in tune with this. He's a hard trainer, and treat every players the same, which can both be a good and bad things in player management.
In his eye, Pogba is not yet the finished article, there is room for growth. His recent comments about the B2B thing and Pogba's position reflects this. His persistence in playing Pogba in midfield two is also a hope of him fulfilling that potential. Here lies the problem.
For a manager of this calibre, Mourinho, he's not that blind in seeing Pogba's inconsistencies. In his first season, he did turned to midfield three after Pogba's bad performances, to retain balance in midfield, but reverted back to midfield two after Pogba "settle down". In this second season, after recruiting Matic who can solo-mid in some games, he then revert back to "train" Pogba in the midfield two, trying to fulfill his potential.
Pogba is a good professional, but everyone knows his character orientation, which reflects and expressed from his football. He himself made comments of his preferences in playing football. Freestyle, freedom, attacking, stylish, entertaining, more on-the-ball football. So, at first, it really is a mismatch with Mourinho's disciplinary and hard approach. Pogba is a happy-go-lucky kind of person, who prefers to play freely. That's just his nature. A total maverick.
After his amazing career with Juventus, Pogba doesn't strike me as a player attempting to improve even further, or at least his motivations for that is no longer that much. His next objectives are more on to winning the big trophies playing for Manchester United. Doesn't strike me as a player seeking to be the best of the best, therefore no need for more improvements, but more of a player satisfied with his footballing capability, which is that top class.
Football skills = Technical skills + Physical skills + Creative skills + Mental skills + Tactical skills.
While everyone knows Pogba have top class technical, creative and physical skills especially, his tactical skills is truly lacking, but no worries, it's coach-able. That's the only thing helding him back in midfield two (plus motivations) - the know how and when to position himself in different phases during matches. Instead, he prefers to go all-out attacking playing freely, stylish football. Understandably, this coincides with his free nature. Still, it's hard to accept his somehow effortless attempts during defensive phase in many matches this season, that costs us points. It's as if the addition of Matic makes him thinks he should no longer try.. and just focus on playing freely. I don't blame him though.
The possible solution here is either...
(1) Mourinho stops coaching him to become a more complete midfielder, which I believe he is pondering, after his public comment in planning to get a midfielder this upcoming summer. But if he do so, then it is saying Pogba is done, can never be the all-time best midfielder. Admit it, many of the best midfielders can play in midfield 2, so why not Pogba? It'll be the most thing which downgrade Pogba - "he can't play in midfield two, so how is he the best". Scholes and Pirlo did it. Of course pairing with a more defensive midfielder, but still they play well compatibly. Now, Pogba have Matic, no more excuses.
(2) Pogba realize this and fulfill his possible "real" potential, to be a more complete midfielder, than what he already is. Dispel the myth of him can't play in midfield two. So what if he's the best in midfield of three, everyone knows that, Pogba knows it, even I'm sure Mourinho knows this. But can he play in two?
Interesting not many people can see the bigger picture of this dilemma. As long as both Mourinho and Pogba doesn't fall-out and retain their professionalism, we'll reap the rewards.
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When did Xavi play in a midfield 2? Iniesta? Gerrard? Lampard?
Fair enough.Used the word "many" instead of "all". Lampard is more limited though, but rare, amazing in attacks, goals scoring especially.
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Really interesting the way the narrative around Pogba has changed since this thread was created.
At the beginning of the season he carried the team, scoring freely, creating chances. When I see him with the ball, it comes effortlessly and he always finds a way to shield the ball and dribble his opponents. Technically he must be one of the best, I'd say. Also mentally I think he has what it takes to be a world class player.
Saw him letting players run without tracking them, and this in dangerous positions. Don't know why he does that but he should take his responsibility for the team. Not sure what is missing for him to refind his former level, pressure, press, Jose?
Saw him letting players run without tracking them, and this in dangerous positions. Don't know why he does that but he should take his responsibility for the team. Not sure what is missing for him to refind his former level, pressure, press, Jose?
I think it's being overstated how good he was at the start of the season. He was good against West Ham. Wasn't great against Swansea but scored, was ok against Leicester. Was naff against Stoke. Then got injured against Basle. So his start to the season boiled down to him playing well in one game, which most of our team played well in, and then ok in a couple of others.
On the flip side I also didn't think he was that bad last night. He let himself down in one oor two moments rather than just being fundamentally bad. Certainly nowhere near as bad as the Spurs or Newcastle games, but he still needs to eliminate the moments. If he does that he'd be working harder and concentrating more on a consistent basis, and then the goals/assists/chance creating would be more likely to come naturally anyway.
The excuses are disappearing and I think that's a good thing as it might give him the push he seems to need.
What people seem to miss with him is that if his focus was right in games, it really wouldn't matter whether he was on the left three, right of a two, middle of a midfield hexagon. He'd still look a good player whether the system worked or not.
On the flip side I also didn't think he was that bad last night. He let himself down in one oor two moments rather than just being fundamentally bad. Certainly nowhere near as bad as the Spurs or Newcastle games, but he still needs to eliminate the moments. If he does that he'd be working harder and concentrating more on a consistent basis, and then the goals/assists/chance creating would be more likely to come naturally anyway.
The excuses are disappearing and I think that's a good thing as it might give him the push he seems to need.
What people seem to miss with him is that if his focus was right in games, it really wouldn't matter whether he was on the left three, right of a two, middle of a midfield hexagon. He'd still look a good player whether the system worked or not.
Needs to demonstrate that he’s more than a sulky brat
Beginning of the season seems like ages ago. We need him now more than ever, it is time to step up in the most important, full lf pressure part of the season. This is when the best players reveal themselves. Doing it in the early season is almost meaningless
The game against Sevilla is a huge stage and he’ll get more time and space in that, if he still struggles to really impose himself then the question marks will only increase in size.
I agree that this is important. The hankering to blame anything and everything for basic mistakes from fans and pundits alike has insulated him from a lot of criticism that he'd normally receive.
The manager has taken the majority of the flak for him being an irresponsible, naive and petulant child at times this season. With the criticism Mourinho has received for "stifling him" you'd think that he'd played him at centre back all year.
He then gets played in the position that he apparently absolutely thrives in and shockingly the same basic and key mistakes are being made at the same unfortunate rate. Forgetting to track runners, losing possession by trying to overplay, general laziness and lapses in concentration.
I still maintain that he's a 20 year old in a 25 year olds body. I'm hoping that means in a couple of years he'll mature into the unbelievable player we know he could be. I definitely believe 28 - 33 will be his peak.
I agree that he can't live on those early season performances alone and he needs to deliver in a consistent manner. It just shows to me that he is capable of playing well, for United in the Premier League. So there has to be an issue that needs solving. I'm hearing everyone say that he needs to be playing in a midfield 3 , but that doesn't seem to fix the issues.
Let's hope he wrecks Liverpool and we'll get to see him have a cracker of a game on Saturday!
After this world cup does anyone really still think pogba is the problem?
It's obvious where the problem lays. And we will solve that problem in Christmas time at the earliest.
I remember this utter abortion of a thread. I thought it had died and for a time, I was happy.
Proved that he still has it and that it never really went away
Funny bump. Thread never made much sense since football is a team game and a single player doesn't decide such a big thing.
Yes. He's very inconsistent. We already know that he can make a great play thanks to his fantasy and technique, but the team needs other things and, at this point, it doesn't look like he will take a step forward in order to be a dominant midfielder like the great ones.
Inb4: But muh stadistics
What a shit show of a thread this has always been.
His consistency aint the problem. He would be consistent in a good team. The problem is we are a poor team with very little runners and a woefully average defence.
Pogba needs the team to improve. No one in our team performs to the level they should. Even Lukaku doesnt score enough. De Gea is about it for performing at his own level.
The problem will be if we dont improve and match Pogbas ambition he will rightfully go to the best team in the World as that is just how good he is.
Yes. Laughable premise.
Username checks out.
Playground footballer who won the World Cup. That's a huge achievement.
Meaning?
Fish smells from the head.
Even if Jose implodes, I doubt Woodward sacks him until the end of the season
If Moyes wasn't fired by December, neither will Jose. Only thing that could happen is Jose walking away.
Solution is simple innit. United should try to qualify for the next world cup.
I'm sure you can get a few million United fans to form an official country and enter qualification. But what would you call this land? Fergieland? Ericstan? Keanopolis?
I'm sure you can get a few million United fans to form an official country and enter qualification. But what would you call this land? Fergieland? Ericstan? Keanopolis?
solution...buy the whole entire French Int team, that would completely solve all of our problems.
We’d still probably screw it up
clearly we have a lot of Souness sycophants in here.. ..
I think Pogba is an excellent player, and capable of being one of the very best. But people should not be coming back to this thread thinking that him being an important part of winning the world cup has any real bearing on his form for United, nor the patch he went through last season where he looked at best unfit and at worst seriously not arsed or pissed off or something, which was very poor. Just as Ronaldo had to grow up when at United, Pogba has to as well. Let's hope the improved maturity in his world cup displays can be brought back into consistent league form and proper, responsible midfield performances, but really the whole world cup thing is probably not relevant; it is the week in/week out stuff he needs to be better at. He was showing signs of that right at the end of the season and he carried that into the world cup, so maybe he has listened a bit. Let's hope so. Let's not assume so just because of the hype of winning a trophy on the biggest stage.
You should start a thread about this. With votes. Seriously.
The hate Paul Pogba gets is utterly absurd. if this thread on a United forum doesnt prove it nothing will
What a stupid fecking thread. Does anyone still believe this?
Pfft
Premier League > World Cup anyway.
Premier League > World Cup anyway.
Jose would sell Mbappe and replace him with Arnautovic based on work rate and experience. And so on, it wouldn't last.
sure. Because Mbappe has zero work rate. Clap for yourself. ...
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