I was told a while back that Pogba would "walk into" the Spurs midfield. But now it seems that would only be the case if Goldilocks has things "just right" - not too hot and not too cold, not in a CM pairing but only in a 3, only if he can support the attack and not have on any defensive duties, only if he has a "free role" and not if he has to have positional awareness, only if he's given time and space to perform some fancy flicks and tricks, but not if he can't jog about a bit, and only if he's got the "right" players around him.
We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team
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I was told a while back that Pogba would "walk into" the Spurs midfield. But now it seems that would only be the case if Goldilocks has things "just right" - not too hot and not too cold, not in a CM pairing but only in a 3, only if he can support the attack and not have on any defensive duties, only if he has a "free role" and not if he has to have positional awareness, only if he's given time and space to perform some fancy flicks and tricks, but not if he can't jog about a bit, and only if he's got the "right" players around him.
On ability alone, Pogba walks into most midfields in the world. What I fear he lacks is the required mentality to effectively use all of his technical qualities and physical attributes.
To me, it looks as if the worldwide celebrity status has gone to his head and it almost seems that at times the Frenchman believes he is above doing dirty work in midfield, getting stuck in, pressing and just giving it all. In professional football at the highest level, even 1% difference of commitment can change the whole trajectory of a game.
Plenty of class footballers from Scholes, Hagi to Nedved would struggle in a midfield 2 to exert the influence they are capable of against a competent midfield 3.....I think you still need a tactical set up...perhaps Zidane at his best was good enough to overcome superior numbers in the centre of the field....that said they'd all still walk into most midfields of the day....doesn't mean they didn't come unstuck every now and then.
My main problem with him is off the ball he has no clue what he's doing. Pogba has the worst technique I've ever seen in trying to win the ball back, too often he gets lazy when trying to get the ball off a player and gives them a shove in the back and thus giving away a foul and it happens in every game. Whether its a strong player like Dembele or a weak player like Joe Allen, he goes for a challenge the same way and its infuriating because with a little focus and common sense you can dispossess a player without needing to foul them.
His tracking of runners is also atrocious. I believe he feels the defensive side of the game is beneath him and thinks its all about showing his skills and technique but in the PL or any level of football, what you do off the ball is almost as important as what you do on it. Silva and KDB have been the two best CM's this season and they work extremely hard in closing down, limiting passing angles for opponents, interceptions and even dispossessing players. Pogba may have the class on the ball of the best midfielders in the world but as long as his off the ball displays remain as abject as it has been so far he will just be seen as a CM version of Ozil. Great player with unreal talent but lacking the application to be amongst the very best.
His tracking of runners is also atrocious. I believe he feels the defensive side of the game is beneath him and thinks its all about showing his skills and technique but in the PL or any level of football, what you do off the ball is almost as important as what you do on it. Silva and KDB have been the two best CM's this season and they work extremely hard in closing down, limiting passing angles for opponents, interceptions and even dispossessing players. Pogba may have the class on the ball of the best midfielders in the world but as long as his off the ball displays remain as abject as it has been so far he will just be seen as a CM version of Ozil. Great player with unreal talent but lacking the application to be amongst the very best.
Sorry but this is complete rubbish....Fabregas in a midfield 2 even in his prime....very average.....further froward with the right guys behind him....capable of being the difference week in week out....Gerrard in a 2....the same....Scholes....similar....I could go on....
We all know we need a new CM to play a 4-3-3 and bring out the best in Paul Pogba....at Juve he was absolute quality with a better balanced midfield.....in games for us we have seen how great he can be....will he ever be great at interceptions, positioning and tackling....I'd be surprised if he improves dramatically in that regard!
I'm surprised this thread hasn't gotten this long. If you saw us at Everton, you saw how easy that game was for him. That's the only way to get the best out of him but Mou is obsessed with 4231 for reasons unknown. He is no DM. He is a CM who has the passing range of some of the best passers in football. His shooting technique is also quite good. A partnership with Matic is almost insulting the fans' intelligence.
because he doesnt rate Herrera or Fellaini enough to make up a midfield 3? Pretty similar thoughts to the majority on here for the past 2-3 years....
Rubbish
Your ramblings have nothing to do with what I've said. Pogba has delivered world class performances in a two man midfield before but that's not even my main point. Whether in a 2 or 3 man midfield, Pogba is very poor off the ball, he's unable to do the basics in terms of winning the ball and as a Central Midfielder this should be a prerequisite.
By the way Fabregas was immense in his first season for Chelsea in a 2 alongside Matic and one of his best seasons ever was alongside Flamini in a two man midfield. I can't believe you mentioned Scholes
most of his career was in a 2 man midfield alongside Carrick or Keane. In regards to Gerrard, I agree he wasn't great in a 2 man midfield but he was excellent in his off the ball play.Your ramblings have nothing to do with what I've said. Pogba has delivered world class performances in a two man midfield before but that's not even my main point. Whether in a 2 or 3 man midfield, Pogba is very poor off the ball, he's unable to do the basics in terms of winning the ball and as a Central Midfielder this should be a prerequisite.
By the way Fabregas was immense in his first season for Chelsea in a 2 alongside Matic and one of his best seasons ever was alongside Flamini in a two man midfield. I can't believe you mentioned Scholes
I think midfield 3's of quality weren't a mainstay when Scholes was dominating other midfield 2's......in Europe we came up against 3's more often and against the best he wasn't showing his best......SAF started benching him....
There are plenty of vid's showing Fabregas being utterly horrendous in a midfield 2.....like letting players walk past him time and time again...a bit like Pogba....It's simply not their best attribute. I'm just trying to say further forward with the right protection and they hit heights they don't otherwise hit....
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Pogba can play in a midfield two in 75% of our games and get away with it. He’s had several MOTM displays this season in that formation.
He will need cover in bigger games. Even it means shunting him out wide ala Gerrard under Benitez. He’s far too talented not to be able to make a difference in these games but he’s not going to suddenly develop the awareness needed to be defensively sound.
A lot of people are overreacting. I’m not excusing Pogba’s display but no way can people believe he’s being put in the best position for him to thrive. He was a big part of a serial league winning, CL finalist side. Let’s not go crazy.
He will need cover in bigger games. Even it means shunting him out wide ala Gerrard under Benitez. He’s far too talented not to be able to make a difference in these games but he’s not going to suddenly develop the awareness needed to be defensively sound.
A lot of people are overreacting. I’m not excusing Pogba’s display but no way can people believe he’s being put in the best position for him to thrive. He was a big part of a serial league winning, CL finalist side. Let’s not go crazy.
We made 3 finals in 4 years playing Carrick -Scholes, more than good enough
Did Scholes start those finals....maybe my memory fails me?
PS when the other areas of our team were so superior to the current team I also think you can get away with a midfield 2....put RVP in this team for example....or quality on the wings....It's more of an issue when teams like spurs are just walking through us at will!
Pogba is at worst the second best midfielder in the league. I prefer seeing him in a midfield three but, even in a midfield two he has had plenty of great performances for us.
He started in 08. Giggs and Anderson started with Carrick in 09 and Giggs started with Carrick in 11.
I agree with this....
So he started in 1 of the finals? Anyway he was pure quality he would have started them all for me but again maybe with another guy sitting in to give him the space to pick his passes....
Not so much a knee jerk thread as an absolute out and out leg break this....
Not so much a knee jerk thread as an absolute out and out leg break this....
But any opportunity to talk about Scholes cannot be said to be a waste of a thread....
Clearly is not, Eriksen proved to be way better.
1 game
OP is innocent until proven guilty.
Are you serious?
To those of you saying Pogba was absolutely fantastic at Juventus where he had the right players around him - did you actually watch Juventus games in full? Did he really have no significant weaknesses? (Although I don't think stats say very much, his stats there were not that much better than here)
I didn't watch him for Juventus, but I've watched most of his France games and he's sometimes struggled to be truly great for them too.
I didn't watch him for Juventus, but I've watched most of his France games and he's sometimes struggled to be truly great for them too.
Without Zidane I don't think Henry or anyone would have achieved anything of note for France either......
This thread is a train wreck
I don't really disagree with any of this, but the problem I have with Pogba is this.
There are plenty of players who can only play at their best in cetain roles or in certain areas of the pitch. Most players perform worse if not used to their strengths (obvious point really). LVG was a master at not playing people to their strengths and it showed constantly....but what you'd invariably get with LVG was players TRYING to do what the manager asked of them and just not beiing able to do it very well.
With Pogba though, this isn't what happens. there is an issue on top of this, in that he is not willing to listen to his manager or coaches in the first place, or even try to do what they or his team asks of him. He is given a role and position in a game, and regardless of that, he does what the feck he wants. He thinks he knows better than anyone. He knew better than Sir Alex, now he knows better than Jose Mourinho. Two of the best managers around and he knows better than them. I mean we might as well put him in charge of the club.
Except, for all that, he demonstrates zero intelligence on the pitch to suggest he actually does know better than anyone. He demonstrates zero evidence that he knows best what his strengths and weaknesses are. When he is doing what the feck he wants, he is all to often striving to run around doing the exact things you have listed above as his weaknesses. He will go into the area of the pitch you have identified, and he will play like a complete idiot. So he isn't willing to do what the manager asks, he isn't willing to be mature enough to look imself at what he can and can't do...so exactlly when and how DO you get the best out of him? If you screw around with the entire team, to the detriment of other players, just to play him in a role that suits his strengths, where is the evidence over the past year and a half that he is even going to try and play to those strengths? Is he going to listen to anyone who tells him what those strengths are? Or is he just going to prat around doing what he wants?
A player earns the right to have a team built around them. Like even the likes of Ronaldo and Messi had to do at United and Barcelona. They earn it by working hard, working on their strengths. Proving to the team and manager that they are worth making a central figure and woorth making sacrifices to accomodate if necessary. It isn't up to the team to earn the right to play alongside Paul Pogba. He hasn't shown he is good enough to justify that. He hasn't shown he is willing to fight for them. He hasn't shown he has the determination or focus to make that work. Showing off when you're 2-0 up to Stoke proves nothing to anyone.
The money is a non factor for me. There's a lot of weaknesses llisted in your post for someone who at the time was the world's most expensive player. Weaknesses it is difficult to argue with. A lot of them come down to nothing more than his attitude and mentality. You wont find any world class players, or players who succesful teams build around, who's weakknesses include "lack of conentration", "lack of movement" "poor work rate", etc.Why on earth would you risk building a team around someone who can't get basic fundamentals right?
This thread is full of people who are constantly frustrated at seeing Pogba put in below par performances, but who as soon as someone says "yeah Pogba is playing shite he needs to sort it out" will act outraged as if he is our best player every week. If you asked other teams fans opinions of Pogba, it would not paint a very positive picture. If you asked other team's fans for their opinions on our actual best player (De Gea), most will tell you he is a fantastic player. There is a reason for this.
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It's embarrassing how so called United fans are reacting.
Pogba would walk into ANY team in the world - United need to build the team around him and ensure everything is done to help him thrive. Because when Pogba is flying so are United!
In my view, he needs two deeper lying midfielders behind him which give him a free reign to influence our attack
Pogba is a class act. Has been ever sibce his youth team days. The team needs to help him flourish
Pogba would walk into ANY team in the world - United need to build the team around him and ensure everything is done to help him thrive. Because when Pogba is flying so are United!
In my view, he needs two deeper lying midfielders behind him which give him a free reign to influence our attack
Pogba is a class act. Has been ever sibce his youth team days. The team needs to help him flourish
Top 3 performer on a team that's several points above yours in the table. Let's not pretend your team is the gold standard of excellence
What a pathetic thread, this place is so negative at times.
Calm down people. Players were lacking match fitness... 1st team players haven’t played for 2 weeks before the spurs game.
And I’m not blaming the loss on match fitness as Jones blunders were just that... but the way we played. And JM also set up the team wrong as 2 In midfield will never work vs top 6 except arsenal.
So he would walk into any team in the world except for any team that doesn't have the exact type of players he needs around him to play well? That doesn't really add up does it?
It is not everyone except Paul Pogba's responsibility for Paul Pogba to play well. It is Paul Pogba's responsibility.
Who out of interest would he walk into the City team ahead of?
De Bruyne and Silva are both comfortably better. Eriksen and Ozil are around the same
OP must be a WUM. What a load of rubbish.
Agreed. The problem is that he is mentally aged 15 yrs old. There is absolutely no way any team should be built round him, unless you want to be relegated. The idea everyone should compromise round his abilities, or that United should spend more money just to accomodate him, is sheer lunacy.
Souness is right, Scholes is right, Fergie was right, these are real football people, they know what it takes. United should get as much money from Madrid as they can for him. Get rid, before he creates a real problem with his childishness. Then buy two real MEN, in CM who can make a real difference in the development of the team.
People forgot King Pogba won united the Europa and the League Cup last season.
And this season, he has the highest ratings out of all players in the team.
He can shoot really well. It all the shots which hit the posts were to go in, his goals would be in double digits last season.
He's mentally strong, creative and physically imposing, which means that other teams no longer dare to attack against manutd but instead chose to be defensive.
And this season, he has the highest ratings out of all players in the team.
He can shoot really well. It all the shots which hit the posts were to go in, his goals would be in double digits last season.
He's mentally strong, creative and physically imposing, which means that other teams no longer dare to attack against manutd but instead chose to be defensive.
He's slow
You can't say Pogba hasn't tried. In the smaller games he has tried it's just when it comes to the big games he gets found out very early on in those games and his head begins to go because he gets overwhelmed by how bad he is in the CM position. I've seen it before with good players that if they play out of position as soon as they're getting done over tactically and have no idea what they're doing .. their ego instead of saying fight begins to make them angry for looking so crap and the fear of humiliation makes them forget the basics, do something spectacular to make up for it and end up making the situation worse. Not everyone is a Roy Keane who can just adapt to whatever is thrown at him and fight his way through. Is Pogba a mental softie in this regard? Absolutely he's a child but so are a lot of great players who would also end up looking clueless if put in a situation where they just lack the tactical skill set to deal with a set of problems under pressure in a big game. It would be much more worrying if he was being played on his best position and still demonstrating a similar level of immaturity. Which I am not saying is impossible but I would argue it is less likely to happen in a more favoured position for him then the current mess we are seeing with him.. where in the big games we are either putting him as a CM or a 10 and rarely something in between. People keep saying Herrera is the answer - no not really we basically need to buy someone whose better than Pogba and relegate him to a secondary role in midfield. It'll hurt his ego but make him a more effective player for the side. He needs another superstar midfielder like a peak Vidal or a Verratti to control the game and let him focus on the small range of things he is genuinely good at. Asking him to be our rolls Royce is a recipe for disaster as he isn't as good as people think he is and does not have the mental strength or football iq to be put on CM and run the show single handedly - it is never going to happen.
Again the lack of concentration etc is relative to the attributes expected of a CM. For a Left side Central attacking mid, in the Iniesta and Coutinho role where he operates.. his work rate is not bad nor is his stamina.. it is when you compare him to a CM then it looks really bad. It's like comparing apples and oranges and then shitting on the orange for not being an apple. It takes a different type of stamina, different type of concentration to be a CM versus an attacking midfielder. He suits one more than the other and it's down to the manager to recognise this.
Whether he deserves to have the team built around him is neither here nor there. Once you've committed to buying him, you need to get the best out of him or try to do that at the very least. The money aspect is important because it proves where he stands on this team in terms of talent level and he's one of if not our best player when on song. So therefore before you write him off you've got to try and get the best out of him and for me he has shown on his career and most pundits agree that give him a free role down the left and he can do damage as he is a free spirit with all the strengths I mention but the worst thing you can do is make him a key component of the spine because he lacks the maturity for such a role and the skill set too for that matter.
The point is you might be right, we might never win a PL with Pogba or he might still never show up on big games even if we put him where he wants on a 433 for say 2-3 years and if that proves to be the case get rid. But is it not worth trying to put your biggest star as of now in his best position to see if he can grow into a world class player? It's not like we're pulling any trees by not building the team around him.
De Gea is genuinely world class whereas Pogba is not imo a world class performer. World class talent ? Yes but at the moment he's still more potential than performance. The manager has to look at how he can change that and the first step is getting that position right and then focusing on coaching the player and honing in on his strengths. If after a couple of years he's still useless then feck it but I believe Pogba has it in him to take that next step - we shouldn't give up on him that easily.
If you asked other fans opinion on Ronaldo when he played for us they would tell you he was shite and had no end product. Alot of the rival fans thought he was brain dead with his decisions. There was many on here like yourself who were of the same opinion regarding Ronaldo like you're with Pogba.
United are the mosted hated club amongst most rival fans so their opinion on our players should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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