Why do you label them bottled?
We are bottlers
- Thread starter spontaneus1
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Man, you're in for a surprise tonight.
How are they not. In both games we conceed goals withing minutes of eachother. Stupid goals too.
Not sure about bottling.
I'm the cup yes.
In the league however we are never going to be a unbeatable level team like Arsenal for a whole season. We have too many gaps in the squad for that.
Therefore if we lose a game are we bottlers? Not for me. We just need to continue to improve.
I'm the cup yes.
In the league however we are never going to be a unbeatable level team like Arsenal for a whole season. We have too many gaps in the squad for that.
Therefore if we lose a game are we bottlers? Not for me. We just need to continue to improve.
But what makes it bottled and not just a loss or bad.
Your the cup, how does that feel?
But what makes it not a bottle job?
We weren't outplayed. We weren't underdogs. We just shit ourselves for a few minutes each game and it cost us.
It's the very definition of Bottling.
Not sure why those in here want to just say we should be losing like that. Sure our defence isn't brilliant but it's not championship quality yet that is what it was like in the first 10 minutes versus Leipzig and the 5 minutes that Everton where better than us in the entire game.
Also we lost 4 semi finals in a row. On odds alone you should win atleast 1 considering we where favourites in one, even in the other and underdogs in the two against city.
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Bottling implies that the pressure got to them and they collapsed in a way they wouldn't under less pressured circumstances.
In reality we saw the exact sort of individual errors we've made quite consistently, whether that be before we were being labelled title challengers or during.
Big occasion, small occasion, our defence is capable of screwing up like that. That's a large part of why we'd had so many come-from-behind wins this season, because we keep going behind. It has little to do with bottling anything and more to do with having specific, tangible weaknesses that can be exposed in any given game.
Also, it generally pays to be wary of anyone who simply blames a team's failings on them "bottling it", having "bad attidude", a "lack of hunger" and so on. It is often a sign of someone who doesn't know that much about football, can't analyse what is actually happening to cause specific issues, so instead throws out vague clichés that can neither be proven nor disproven with any actual evidence. That's partly how Roy Keane has become such a high-profile pundit while offering little actual insight. Never a problem that isn't down to attitude, or requires him to actually break down what is technically happening on the pitch.
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If your two down in the first ten minutes of a CL game in which you are the favourite you have collapsed under the pressure.
If you get to the final game of the CL when the other teams were favourites to qualify, shows there is progress.
Nonsense revisionism. It was 50/50 between us and Leipzig before any games where played and we are clearly a much better team so to go out was an absolute joke.
No, that's an illogical and lazy way of analysing football. By that logic you could ascribe any early goals in any high-profile games as being a result of the pressure, even when they could just as easily have occurred in less pressured circumstances.
There are plenty of reasons you can concede two early goals in a game of football that have nothing to do with pressure but a lot to do with underlying flaws being exposed. I could point to countless games over the last couple of years against mediocre opposition in lower-pressure circumstances where we have had similarly botched examples of defending.
Alone it means nothing. But we are building a very nice pattern of folding in those games.
This is a very interesting post - I have long harboured the fear that Man Utd will endure a Liverpool-like wilderness post-Ferguson and that it could be 30+ years until the next title. I also wonder if this thought has embedded itself within the club itself; the management, the players and all the rest seem to be almost afraid to step up when it really counts. I mean, there's a chance that Man City will get to 21 titles before Man Utd do. And not a ridiculously small chance either. How crazy would that be? We overhauled Liverpool when they had 18 and we had just 7. So, it's been done before.
I think people are too quick to portray the club as being in ruins at the moment Mourinho left, saying things like he does this everywhere he goes in year 3. This is used as an excuse as to why it could take years for Solskjaer to 'rebuild'. However, I think that just lets Solskjaer and Woodward off the hook. I mean, when Mourinho left Chelsea in 2015 they went on to win the league the next season. When he left Madrid they went on to win the Champions League the next season. Inter won the Italian Cup and the Club World Cup the year after he left. In 2007 when he left Chelsea they got to a CL final and ran possibly the greatest Man Utd team this century extremely close in the league. And that was under an absolute no-name manager too.
I don't buy that this club was in ruins in December 2018. It wasn't great, but it never is when a manager is sacked. But 'ruins'? C'mon! Solskjaer went on a ridiculous winning run as soon as he took over. Then it all fell apart. Is Solsjkaer 'rebuilding' from the disaster of December 2018? Or the disaster of May 2019 following that awful spell post-PSG?
I do think that patience is a virtue, but it sometimes crosses over to delusion and blind faith. And that is more often that not never repaid.
We're building a nice pattern of conceding those sort of goals in a lot of games though. Only Leeds have conceded more than us of the current PL top 11. Conceded 3 to Palace, 2 to Brighton, 2 to Southampton, 2 to Sheffield United (twice), etc.
There's plenty of evidence that we have these defensive problems outside of big games anyway, so it's hardly a surprise when they continue against better teams like Leipzing too.
We are not bottlers but giving a lead away twice and conceding the last goal the way we did is really something Spurs would do 
PSG were favourites to qualify ahead of us but bookmakers' odds had us ahead of Leipzig.
The reason many of us, myself included, were pessimistic when the draw was made is that the post-Fergie Manchester United has a habit of fecking up in these situations. And lo and behold, we did it again.
There is no way that crashing out of the CL group stage should be spun as 'progress'. It's not.
Look on the bright side, you have to be good enough to be in a position to bottle stuff to begin with. Bottling a title race is better than never being in said race at all.
Baby steps
Baby steps
I think that's fair but there clearly are some problems with certain mental aspects, like concentration. We tend to be absolutely awful at the start of games, over and over again. It's part of the reason why we had to come from behind so many times. All too often we really only start playing football once things turn to shit. That's not a good look.
Things are moving in the right direction, which is a suprise under woodward and glazers. The academy midseason review (posted yesterday in the youth thread) highlights what a potential great crop of kids we could have coming through in 3-5 years time.
Ole and his staff are making some mistakes but are learning. It will take time and patience is required. No one expected Utd to be where they are currently in the league after this many games.
Its looking promising. Lets give Ole some time. As for bottlers thats rubbish.
The media is definitely pushing this, quite funnily actually. Part of me is wishing that Gary Neville spins it back on Jamie, Liverpool were top of the league well after VVD and Gomez got injured, they still had Matip in a number of games and since then their decline has involved dropped points in 7 games, 5 of which were against bottom half, 4 of which were bottom 6. If they had simply beaten Brighton and Burnley at home, beaten one of Newcastle or WBA and not lost to Soton they would be well in the title race even after losing this weekend. In my eyes, that is a much bigger bottle job.
From our side, I think it is way too simplistic to talk about it as bottling. It isn't like we were pummeling teams and then got told we were in a title challenge and dropped off. We had a run of Wolves, Villa, Burnley and Fulham all whilst we were there and thereabouts at the top - in fact some games to take us top. We won all of them. If we were really bottlers, those games all had the makings of trip ups.
It is just slight margins, we got the late goal vs Wolves, a penalty which may have not been given vs Villa, a wonder strike and GK error vs Fulham and voila 9 points. Those margins have not gone our way in the other games, Sheff Utd's first goal should have never stood, we were back in it minutes later but another ref mistake - on another day against Everton we score another and kill the game at 4-2 but missed probably 2/3 really good chances. That is not us bottling, it is just margins not going our way, and ultimately teams like City and Liverpool that got up towards 100 points are so good that those margins don't change results, unfortunately we are at the level where those margins change wins into draws etc. Our luck has been out for the last couple of weeks, if margins don't go City's way in the next 10 days, they could be back to within a games reach - will they be then called bottlers or suddenly will it change how good we are - the answer is no.
From our side, I think it is way too simplistic to talk about it as bottling. It isn't like we were pummeling teams and then got told we were in a title challenge and dropped off. We had a run of Wolves, Villa, Burnley and Fulham all whilst we were there and thereabouts at the top - in fact some games to take us top. We won all of them. If we were really bottlers, those games all had the makings of trip ups.
It is just slight margins, we got the late goal vs Wolves, a penalty which may have not been given vs Villa, a wonder strike and GK error vs Fulham and voila 9 points. Those margins have not gone our way in the other games, Sheff Utd's first goal should have never stood, we were back in it minutes later but another ref mistake - on another day against Everton we score another and kill the game at 4-2 but missed probably 2/3 really good chances. That is not us bottling, it is just margins not going our way, and ultimately teams like City and Liverpool that got up towards 100 points are so good that those margins don't change results, unfortunately we are at the level where those margins change wins into draws etc. Our luck has been out for the last couple of weeks, if margins don't go City's way in the next 10 days, they could be back to within a games reach - will they be then called bottlers or suddenly will it change how good we are - the answer is no.
I'm not sure I agree. Some maybe, or some situations maybe, but the majority of these games we are outplayed.
Rather, the first team still isn’t good enough yet. Ole has this team punching roughly where it should be, perhaps a little above.
Our first choice midfield is Fred and McTominay and Lindelof starts at centre half every week. We still don’t have a right winger over the age of 20.
We’ll continue to ‘bottle’ things until these issues are rectified. Ole is well on the way to rectifying this already, given the state of things when he arrived.
What were you really expecting?
Our first choice midfield is Fred and McTominay and Lindelof starts at centre half every week. We still don’t have a right winger over the age of 20.
We’ll continue to ‘bottle’ things until these issues are rectified. Ole is well on the way to rectifying this already, given the state of things when he arrived.
What were you really expecting?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55594966
For those who find it easier to lie than search on google.
We will see who we are today.
Fair points but we got ourselves all but qualified to go into the ko stages of the CL but somehow fecked it up, when it looked more difficult to miss out than qualify
really should have done better
labelling us “bottlers” might be a bit knee-jerk as yet but it is becoming a worrying trend, especially in some of the circumstances
It’s all BS. Our squad is as good as any in the league. They have just been told repeatedly that they aren’t. Liverpool bought a bunch of rejects and Southampton players and won everything. This is because Klopp made them believe they could conquer the world. Meanwhile, we break transfer record after record, buy superstars and shortly after are left saying that our players cannot realistically compete with City’s or Liverpool’s. ‘We just don’t have the squad’.
Last season we wiped the floor with the so-called top teams in the PL, but couldn’t put the lesser sides away. The club needs to demand first place. Not this ‘quarter final of the Champions League and a cup’ bullshit that they have run with for years now. If you raise a child in the same manner that we treat these players, they will never amount to anything either. Tell a kid everyday that they should just aim for a job that can pay the bills and they will never change the world.
All if a sudden we can’t possibly match Joe Gomez from Charlton, Jordan fecking Henderson from Sunderland and Robertson from Hull. ‘We need a few more windows’. It’s bollocks. This tomorrow will never arrive. Just take some accountability and get the feck on with it. This club, from the fans, manager, players and ex-players seem to just want to strive for a season where ‘at least nobody dan say we were shit’. That seems to be the extent of their ambition. We finished third last season. We apparently declared that we want to improve on third, while somehow not aiming to be first! Like, there’s literally nowhere to hide between first and third. Second, perhaps - but if you can aim for second place in August, then first must be the real target surely. We’re not fecking Leicester with all this ‘you won’t hear the word title anywhere around the training ground’ talk.
The likes of Liverpool and City have their job made considerably easier when - before a ball is kicked, clubs like us have already conceded to them and openly said that we don’t plan to get involved in their fight. They at least need to be made to go out and fecking earn it. The bottlers on the caf are no better. Last season I read countless posts saying that Liverpool were guaranteed to win the league for the next three years. Or that only City could stop them. The same Liverpool that may not even make the CL next season. We seem to constantly be trying to engineer ourselves into a position where we can somehow be seen to be doing well without having to be the best. We can worry about being the best in some sort of fantasy ‘tomorrow’.
Regarding Liverpool, without VVD, I agree that our squad is no worse. City, might have the better players when KDB is included.
What sets them apart from us, is their ability to play, pass, move and press as a team. Especially City is miles ahead when it comes to a shared understanding among the players in the team. We are still reliant on individualistic moments and certain players to create chances and score goals. We are still bad at progressing the ball against a well-organized press or creating chances against a team in balance...
I agree with this, but still see it as a collective responsibility of the playing and coaching staff to remedy.
And I think belief is also a huge part. They seem to place different demands on themselves than we do.
Is it any different than what Pochettino did with Spurs the year Leicester won the league that got him labelled a serial bottler by half the members of the forum?
Just like Tottenham that year we weren't supposed to be in the title race and rightly so but our stars aligned with Liverpool in free fall, City starting off horribly, Chelsea being managed by an out of his depth Lampard, Arsenal having a terrible squad and rookie manager and pesky Leicester being unpredictable.
How we got to the top at the halfway point I don't think anyone knows but we got there. We should of been expected to beat the bottom of the table SU and that result really does look like the seeds of doubt have come into play and if that equates to us being bottlers then I agree.
Just like Tottenham that year we weren't supposed to be in the title race and rightly so but our stars aligned with Liverpool in free fall, City starting off horribly, Chelsea being managed by an out of his depth Lampard, Arsenal having a terrible squad and rookie manager and pesky Leicester being unpredictable.
How we got to the top at the halfway point I don't think anyone knows but we got there. We should of been expected to beat the bottom of the table SU and that result really does look like the seeds of doubt have come into play and if that equates to us being bottlers then I agree.
It's not a personnel issue. The mentality and the ability to take pressure of this club and its players is absolutely garbage. It's why we don't capitalize on moments to secure CL progress, we get dumped out of cups, we succumb to shit teams when we have a chance of title race. I am not sure where the blame lies.
Edit: Let me make it pristinely clear. We are a team of utter bottlers. It comes from the manager and the players aren't any improvement.
Edit: Let me make it pristinely clear. We are a team of utter bottlers. It comes from the manager and the players aren't any improvement.
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But Ole said Trophies doesn't matter.....
while we watch City win all four and create history. Wonder in 20 years time will we remember finishing 2nd in the 20/21 season?
while we watch City win all four and create history. Wonder in 20 years time will we remember finishing 2nd in the 20/21 season?
It was a crappy team selection and some poor individual performances that let us down today. And Leicester clearly aren’t a shit team.
Yes, let's find another excuse not to blame the one person who is responsible for all of this, and that is the manager.
What do you expect? Our backups are all cheap options or homegrown players who arent up to it.
Leicester are about the same level in general but tonight have been much better.
We secured UCL football away to today's team on the last day of the season last season? Unless there's a collapse we've secured qualification comfortably this season as well
We've been knocked out today at the quarter final stage, hardly a daunting stage of the competition is it
We've been knocked out today at the quarter final stage, hardly a daunting stage of the competition is it
Winning cups was never actually a problem till recent. The problem was we didn't win major cups. Now the problem is we don't win any
Ffs man. Make the inference from what I stated.