We are an awfully coached team

[11101]

In short. Ole wants us to play out from the back but basically just instructs the team.. I want you to play out from the back.

Disclaimer... I’m pretty sure they have instructions on how he wants this done. But this is what Castle’s has said.

It's quite obvious. Copied from another thread but this is us trying to play out from the back against Leicester.

Spoiler: Us vs Leicester

8 players, only one of them has moved more than a couple of feet.

How Barcelona do it, images taken the same time apart:

Spoiler

The wide options haven't moved much, but the picture in the middle of the pitch is totally different. They're moving to pull the City players where they want them to go, in that case into the middle leaving massive spaces out wide, where the ball ends up when the clip carries on. That's what the coaching does.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

I have to say that Ole football is better than Moyes, LVG and Jose.

But it's still no where near good enough for man utd. In fact, most of the games was boring. The passing was slow and predictable with disjointed play in final third.

There are a lot of better manager out there.

 

[Foxbatt]

It's quite obvious. Copied from another thread but this is us trying to play out from the back against Leicester.

Spoiler: Us vs Leicester

8 players, only one of them has moved more than a couple of feet.

How Barcelona do it, images taken the same time apart:

Spoiler

The wide options haven't moved much, but the picture in the middle of the pitch is totally different. They're moving to pull the City players where they want them to go, in that case into the middle leaving massive spaces out wide, where the ball ends up when the clip carries on. That's what the coaching does.

That's how United used to play. Control, pass and move.
That's good coaching. If you are not coached in how to look for space and create space and move into space, you can't play.
Look at the interview of RVN. He says when Rio has the ball he knows what move to make, even though it would come to him via different players. Players pass the ball to space and other players run into that space. It doesn't mean they have to run 10 or 20 yards. It's just a couple of yards.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

In short. Ole wants us to play out from the back but basically just instructs the team.. I want you to play out from the back.

Disclaimer... I’m pretty sure they have instructions on how he wants this done. But this is what Castle’s has said.

Even though its Castles, somehow it feels that's exactly what's happening. Tell them what he wants but not quite the how so they are left to their own devices to "figure" it out on the fly and it shows. So much so that it shows on the other end too while pressing the opponent. Sort of like go "press" but no instructions on how a good "coordinated" press is done, so sometimes everyone is pressing the same 2 individuals at the same time and sometimes no one is pressing the wide players while Bruno runs himself into the ground. Its hilarious to watch if it weren't United.

 

[RashyForPM]

It’s this sort of stupid things that show this thread to be correct. We can still win things under this management if we buy world class players in the summer, but these types of quotes are simply nonsensical. McKenna/Carrick are now telling James to be more selfish Forget not being able to coach complex attacking patterns, stuff like this is just negligence.

Dan James is the most selfish player in the team, and has been since he came. I bet even his teammates reading that aren’t happy.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

It’s this sort of stupid things that show this thread to be correct. We can still win things under this management if we buy world class players in the summer, but these types of quotes are simply nonsensical. McKenna/Carrick are now telling James to be more selfish Forget not being able to coach complex attacking patterns, stuff like this is just negligence.

Dan James is the most selfish player in the team, and has been since he came. I bet even his teammates reading that aren’t happy.

If you didn't laugh at this silly generic crap like "be more selfish" you'd cry. Seems like that's our coaching in a nutshell.

 

[Idxomer]

This quote is so bad it's actually funny.

 

[big rons sovereign]

It’s this sort of stupid things that show this thread to be correct. We can still win things under this management if we buy world class players in the summer, but these types of quotes are simply nonsensical. McKenna/Carrick are now telling James to be more selfish Forget not being able to coach complex attacking patterns, stuff like this is just negligence.

Dan James is the most selfish player in the team, and has been since he came. I bet even his teammates reading that aren’t happy.

How often do you see James put balls across the box only to have nobody bothering to get there and tap it in? Might as well be more selfish.
God forbid anybody tries to improve their game though eh.
Sack him immediately for wanting to be better

 

[RashyForPM]

How often do you see James put balls across the box only to have nobody bothering to get there and tap it in? Might as well be more selfish.
God forbid anybody tries to improve their game though eh.
Sack him immediately for wanting to be better

And how about the hundreds of times where he runs like a greyhound into no mans land when there are far better options in acres of space. The situation against Milan when he could have passed to Mason sticks out.

I don’t care if he wants to be better. Bebe wanted to be better too. If he wants to become more selfish than he already is now, he’s going to get worse.

 

[TheReligion]

If you believe Ole and the staff simply tell the players what they want them to do then go inside Carrington and put their feet up and leave them to it you're living on another planet.

 

[big rons sovereign]

And how about the hundreds of times where he runs like a greyhound into no mans land when there are far better options in acres of space. The situation against Milan when he could have passed to Mason sticks out.

I don’t care if he wants to be better. Bebe wanted to be better too. If he wants to become more selfish than he already is now, he’s going to get worse.

Again, how dare he want to improve. Shocking stuff. Doesn't he know the redcafe bedwetters wont be happy about it?
Perhaps you should write to the club and offer your expertise on professional coaching, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have you and the gang take training one day.

 

[TheReligion]

Again, how dare he want to improve. Shocking stuff. Doesn't he know the redcafe bedwetters wont be happy about it?
Perhaps you should write to the club and offer your expertise on professional coaching, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have you and the gang take training one day.

Bring in Graham Potter

 

[RUCK4444]

If you believe Ole and the staff simply tell the players what they want them to do then go inside Carrington and put their feet up and leave them to it you're living on another planet.

They are mate. It’s called planet idiot.

 

[TheReligion]

They are mate. It’s called planet idiot.

I'm sure the average age is dropping around this place.

 

[Ali Dia]

It’s this sort of stupid things that show this thread to be correct. We can still win things under this management if we buy world class players in the summer, but these types of quotes are simply nonsensical. McKenna/Carrick are now telling James to be more selfish Forget not being able to coach complex attacking patterns, stuff like this is just negligence.

Dan James is the most selfish player in the team, and has been since he came. I bet even his teammates reading that aren’t happy.

You’re forgetting Rashford there. User name fully checks out.

 

[RashyForPM]

Again, how dare he want to improve. Shocking stuff. Doesn't he know the redcafe bedwetters wont be happy about it?
Perhaps you should write to the club and offer your expertise on professional coaching, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have you and the gang take training one day.

Bring in Graham Potter

They are mate. It’s called planet idiot.

Jeez, Joel Glazer and Woodward’s butlers are seething right through their teeth

Especially @TheReligion, who thinks United and Brighton shouldn’t be compared in a thread titled Manchester United vs Brighton and Hove Albion.

 

[TheReligion]

Jeez, Joel Glazer and Woodward’s butlers are seething right through their teeth

Especially @TheReligion, who thinks United and Brighton shouldn’t be compared in a thread titled Manchester United vs Brighton and Hove Albion.

Here's a thought. Wait until the game is on next week and post a thread again complaining. That'll get everyone's attention. #topred

 

[11101]

If you believe Ole and the staff simply tell the players what they want them to do then go inside Carrington and put their feet up and leave them to it you're living on another planet.

I don't think anybody seriously thinks we are not coaching. We're talking the Premier League though, where the best of the best are operating. We might have very good coaches but they're up against teams with great coaches and it shows.

City's coaches:
Lillo - been managing for 40 years.
Kidd - as an assistant created a team, ours, that won everything there is to win.
Borrell - did 15 years at La Masia bringing through the likes of Messi, before 5 years as head of coaching at Liverpool.

Liverpool:
Kraweitz - been with Klopp for 15 years.
Linders - Porto assistant for almost 10 years before Liverpool.

Chelsea:
Low - created that Leipzig team before moving to PSG to join up with Tuchel.
Michels - been with Tuchel for over 10 years.


Us:
Phelan - been semi retired for almost 10 years, despite his record before that.
Carrick - never done it before.
Fletcher - never done it before.
McKenna - supposed to be good in the academy, but has 2 years in adult football.

 

[TheReligion]

I don't think anybody seriously thinks we are not coaching. We're talking the Premier League though, where the best of the best are operating. We might have very good coaches but they're up against teams with great coaches and it shows.

City's coaches:
Lillo - been managing for 40 years.
Kidd - as an assistant created a team, ours, that won everything there is to win.
Borrell - did 15 years at La Masia bringing through the likes of Messi, before 5 years as head of coaching at Liverpool.

Liverpool:
Kraweitz - been with Klopp his whole career.
Linders - Porto assistant for almost 10 years before Liverpool.

Chelsea:
Low - created that Leipzig team before moving to PSG to join up with Tuchel.
Michels - been with Tuchel for over 10 years.


Us:
Phelan - been semi retired for almost 10 years, despite his record before that.
Carrick - never done it before.
Fletcher - never done it before.
McKenna - supposed to be good in the academy, but has 2 years in adult football.

I don't disagree but you answer your own question. Ole is a relatively new manager compared to all of the above so it's obvious his set up and methods aren't going to be comparable at the moment.

The club have decided to go down this route and give it all time. Others are impatient. I get it. But let's not make up extreme and utter nonsense on the topic.

 

[11101]

I don't disagree but you answer your own question. Ole is a relatively new manager compared to all of the above so it's obvious his set up and methods aren't going to be comparable at the moment.

The club have decided to go down this route and give it all time. Others are impatient. I get it. But let's not make up extreme and utter nonsense on the topic.

He's been coaching since 2008...

He started one year after Guardiola.

You'd think he'd have some idea of who he wanted by his side by now, or at least be able to see that the current crop aren't working as they should.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Jeez, Joel Glazer and Woodward’s butlers are seething right through their teeth

Especially @TheReligion, who thinks United and Brighton shouldn’t be compared in a thread titled Manchester United vs Brighton and Hove Albion.

The difference is most people see it for what it is, the club Instagram account posting a throwaway comment from a player. What's he supposed to say?

I'm shit so I'm not gonna bother training cos like, what's the point?

Whereas the bedwetters have seen yet another excuse to shit all over everything, not just in the multiple everything is shit threads but also the one attempted positivity thread.

I can only recommend taking a step back, a few deep breaths and relaxing.
You'll live longer.

It's just a sport we watch. Nothing more.

 

[TheReligion]

He's been coaching since 2008...

He started one year after Guardiola.

You'd think he'd have some idea of who he wanted by his side by now, or at least be able to see that the current crop aren't working as they should.

Molde v Barca?

Come on. I don't need to spell this out surely. You're comparing apples and pears.

 

[Amir]

Molde v Barca?

Come on. I don't need to spell this out surely. You're comparing apples and pears.

Principles on football work on different levels. You may not be able to execute them at the same level, but you can certainly play in a certain way.

 

[TheReligion]

Principles on football work on different levels. You may not be able to execute them at the same level, but you can certainly play in a certain way.

That's not the point I'm making. He's comparing experienced coaching set ups that have been with each other for years against United's which have been set up from scratch with the idea being they'll be a longer term pay off.

 

[Foxbatt]

That's not the point I'm making. He's comparing experienced coaching set ups that have been with each other for years against United's which have been set up from scratch with the idea being they'll be a longer term pay off.

That's the point. These clubs appoint experienced coaches. Not newbies. These are the biggest clubs in the world.
It's not the setup but people in the setup who have no experience compared to the competition.
We might as well stop buying world class experienced players and just get academy or new players with the idea that they become a longer term pay off.

 

[TheReligion]

That's the point. These clubs appoint experienced coaches. Not newbies. These are the biggest clubs in the world.
It's not the setup but people in the setup who have no experience compared to the competition.
We might as well stop buying world class experienced players and just get academy or new players with the idea that they become a longer term pay off.

Yes so what's to be gained in the comparison? It is what it is. Do we want to strip everything out and start again? We brought in previous managers with experience and experienced staff - look what happened.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

Yes so what's to be gained in the comparison? It is what it is. Do we want to strip everything out and start again? We brought in previous managers with experience and experienced staff - look what happened.

We've been doing the current regime for 2.5 years also. So just keep doing what we're doing and hope things fall into place?

I see people are hanging on to the 2nd position in the league argument, lets hope for their sake that sticks until the end of the season.

 

[Listar]

We've been doing the current regime for 2.5 years also. So just keep doing what we're doing and hope things fall into place?

I see people are hanging on to the 2nd position in the league argument, lets hope for their sake that sticks until the end of the season.

We didn't exactly spend to push us up to title challengers did we? We end up similar points with Chelsea last year and have a look at the investment Chelsea spent in the summer. If we did the same then yes Ole should get the sack. The fact that if you consider last year as the baseline (equal footing with Chelsea) then the fact that he got us doing better than Chelsea is a positive argument for him. Don't forget Chelsea was gunning for the title early in the season with Liverpool and Ole managed to steady the ship after the 6-1 farce.

We don't give the funds to the manager to succeed then we blame the manager. Kinda short sighted that.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

We didn't exactly spend to push us up to title challengers did we? We end up similar points with Chelsea last year and have a look at the investment Chelsea spent in the summer. If we did the same then yes Ole should get the sack. The fact that if you consider last year as the baseline (equal footing with Chelsea) then the fact that he got us doing better than Chelsea is a positive argument for him. Don't forget Chelsea was gunning for the title early in the season with Liverpool and Ole managed to steady the ship after the 6-1 farce.

We don't give the funds to the manager to succeed then we blame the manager. Kinda short sighted that.

Are we now pretending Ole has not spent money? How much do we need to give managers before they can mount a title challenge? All of Chelsea, Liverpool and Lester have won PL titles in last 10 years while spending less than us.

I don't believe giving Ole another 200M will get us closer to the title given what I am seeing on the pitch. That was the entire point of this thread.

 

[dpansheth]

Step 1: find a manager who can implement a style that works with current squad ( long shot given little to no experience the bosses have )

Step 2: prove that you can improve these players and can implement some style over the course of one season, and maintain top 4 with a cup.

then only give him a budget of more than $100M.

 

[MinGin]

Both, he bought a goalkeeper and defender and Liverpool stop leaking goals. He also elevate players like Salah and Mane. Lastly, his tactic is why he is successful. Liverpool has been going to the quarter, semi and finals to champion league for the last few years and Ole can't even make it pass the group stage. If Liverpool injuries isn't that bad, they would probably be in 2nd place and much closer to City. Ole needed Leicester to collapse to make it go top 4 last season. If Chelsea didn't appoint a rookie manager, they would likely be higher than us. Tuchel and Kloop are bringing their style which they have their team to play for years. Ole is just a infant compare to them. Night and day.

So, all managers cannot relied on the coach and tactic in 100%, it is also relied on the quantity of players. Why Klopp can elevate players like Salah and Mane but cannot elevate their own existing defenders and GK at that day? Because they had no potential of that ability section. When you have Midfield who cannot pass, you cannot elevate them to Xavi or Scholes. When you have strikers who cannot off the ball well, you cannot elevate them to Hernandez. You can only replace them from the young team or from the market, you need to buy suitable quantity players to adopt to the system. One Cavani can make the them look huge different on the same tactic, so, some of the issue is caused by the lack of quantity player. And Ole elevate players like Rashford and Shaw to a different level too if they stay fit.
In the real-life, there is no "IF". (If Ole landed Haaland in last season, he would be a masterclass manager in this season). The fact is that we finished at 4th last season and we are still sitting on 2nd in the league. God knows what happen in the future. And please reminded that this ManUtd team is still not balance well, deadwood still exist with high wage, huge different between startup XI and the rest, young front three inconsistent form.

 

[Foxbatt]

So, all managers cannot relied on the coach and tactic in 100%, it is also relied on the quantity of players. Why Klopp can elevate players like Salah and Mane but cannot elevate their own existing defenders and GK at that day? Because they had no potential of that ability section. When you have Midfield who cannot pass, you cannot elevate them to Xavi or Scholes. When you have strikers who cannot off the ball well, you cannot elevate them to Hernandez. You can only replace them from the young team or from the market, you need to buy suitable quantity players to adopt to the system. One Cavani can make the them look huge different on the same tactic, so, some of the issue is caused by the lack of quantity player. And Ole elevate players like Rashford and Shaw to a different level too if they stay fit.
In the real-life, there is no "IF". (If Ole landed Haaland in last season, he would be a masterclass manager in this season). The fact is that we finished at 4th last season and we are still sitting on 2nd in the league. God knows what happen in the future. And please reminded that this ManUtd team is still not balance well, deadwood still exist with high wage, huge different between startup XI and the rest, young front three inconsistent form.

They may not win games but they sure play better. This is the point. Many lesser teams play better but don't win because individually they don't have the quality players. You add quality players into those systems and they will win.
Ole has to get better coaches than newbies. None of Carrick, or Mckenna or even Fletcher has proven or experience after they stopped playing. I would say even Rene would make a difference.

 

[Judas]

I like plenty of our players, I like our manager and what he's done for us after the previous three, I don't like how we often play. It's a weird situation.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

They may not win games but they sure play better. This is the point. Many lesser teams play better but don't win because individually they don't have the quality players. You add quality players into those systems and they will win.
Ole has to get better coaches than newbies. None of Carrick, or Mckenna or even Fletcher has proven or experience after they stopped playing. I would say even Rene would make a difference.

Thats the frustration in this place, many people interpret asking for a cohesive performance to be asking for our players to be like "xavi" and "scholes". No, one is asking them to be world beaters. But expecting Fred to control a ball passed to him in a straight line and make a decent 10 yard pass is not asking him to be like Xavi. Expecting the team to make a coordinated press is not asking them to replicate prime barca. Many teams with fewer resources than us manage to do it effectively.

 

[Keefy18]

I don't think anybody seriously thinks we are not coaching. We're talking the Premier League though, where the best of the best are operating. We might have very good coaches but they're up against teams with great coaches and it shows.

City's coaches:
Lillo - been managing for 40 years.
Kidd - as an assistant created a team, ours, that won everything there is to win.
Borrell - did 15 years at La Masia bringing through the likes of Messi, before 5 years as head of coaching at Liverpool.

Liverpool:
Kraweitz - been with Klopp for 15 years.
Linders - Porto assistant for almost 10 years before Liverpool.

Chelsea:
Low - created that Leipzig team before moving to PSG to join up with Tuchel.
Michels - been with Tuchel for over 10 years.


Us:
Phelan - been semi retired for almost 10 years, despite his record before that.
Carrick - never done it before.
Fletcher - never done it before.
McKenna - supposed to be good in the academy, but has 2 years in adult football.

That's a ridiculous analogy come on.

We had 2 of the most experienced and successful managers in world football at our club recently and both ultimately failed.

There's no magical quick fix in making a club successful.

There is general a theme though with successful clubs in that all parts of the company are moving in the same direction with the same ideals being achieved over a number of years.

I can actually see for once in the post Fergie era that is actually the case and sadly because it isn't instantly rewarding us a league title after 2 seasons we've supporters crying and sulking about it.

The club are clearly focused on scouting, recruiting, coaching and developing young talents to take up spots in the senior side in the years ahead.

Our transfer business overall has been absolutely top notch under Ole in terms of shifting overpaid and underperforming senior players (Fellaini, Sanchez, Rom, Young & Valencia) and a focus on signing talented young players (AWB, Pellistri, Amad, Donny etc etc). We've nailed down some top young talents on long term deals like Hannibal, Henderson, Shoretire & Williams for example.

Meanwhile we've done some great loans with Pellistri, Garner and Lingard. It's win win here on these loans. If they come back we've players confident from their loans and hopefully step up, if not we sell for a marked up fee and in turn can invest in new additions.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think anybody seriously thinks we are not coaching. We're talking the Premier League though, where the best of the best are operating. We might have very good coaches but they're up against teams with great coaches and it shows

And yet we're second. Either the luckiest team on the planet or, just maybe, our coaches are underrated

 

[big rons sovereign]

And yet we're second. Either the luckiest team on the planet or, just maybe, our coaches are underrated

And round and round and round we go. Is nobody getting dizzy yet?

 

[Crustanoid]

We definitely have the second best set of coaches and the second best coaching methods.

So it stands to reason with our young coaches we’ll improve and be first best soon.

No?

 

[Robbie Boy]

And round and round and round we go. Is nobody getting dizzy yet?

 

[Bastian]

That's a ridiculous analogy come on.

We had 2 of the most experienced and successful managers in world football at our club recently and both ultimately failed.

There's no magical quick fix in making a club successful.

There is general a theme though with successful clubs in that all parts of the company are moving in the same direction with the same ideals being achieved over a number of years.

I can actually see for once in the post Fergie era that is actually the case and sadly because it isn't instantly rewarding us a league title after 2 seasons we've supporters crying and sulking about it.

The club are clearly focused on scouting, recruiting, coaching and developing young talents to take up spots in the senior side in the years ahead.

Our transfer business overall has been absolutely top notch under Ole in terms of shifting overpaid and underperforming senior players (Fellaini, Sanchez, Rom, Young & Valencia) and a focus on signing talented young players (AWB, Pellistri, Amad, Donny etc etc). We've nailed down some top young talents on long term deals like Hannibal, Henderson, Shoretire & Williams for example.

Meanwhile we've done some great loans with Pellistri, Garner and Lingard. It's win win here on these loans. If they come back we've players confident from their loans and hopefully step up, if not we sell for a marked up fee and in turn can invest in new additions.

This thread isn't about loans, recruitment, or scouting. It's about coaching. The comparison is fair. Ole had been a manager for 8 years prior to getting the United job and he did not bring anyone with him other than drafting in Phelan while Carrick and McKenna were here. They may yet become great coaches, but currently there is scant evidence. With the caveat this season that we have a lot less time for training with two games a week schedule and no pre-season.

To refer to this again, Ole describes himself as a leader-type-manager, not a coach-manager (which is probably because he models himself on SAF), and a great leader-type-manager delegates certain things, but also acquires the coaching staff required to implement his vision - or bring and implement that vision.

It would be folly to say our football hasn't improved since Mourinho, as it has. But we're still largely boring to watch (I mean, we all love watching United, but objectively speaking, it's not beautiful football by any stretch). LVG clearly had a philosophy, but the beginning of that process (whether or not it would have ever amounted to anything) was the most soul destroying football we have ever played. Jose and LVG both played quite a boring style of football and Ole came in and was all about "attacking football" "United DNA" "We want to dominate teams" and there has been very little walk to back up that talk.

We're making incremental progress. Next season I really do hope the ambition is there and there are no more "it's a process" excuses. Not asking for the league title obviously, but asking for this team to go up another level. Not least in terms of performance.

If we were managed by anyone else over the last two and some years, that would be a pretty uncontroversial ask.