Its painful isnt it. I hate myself for coming back
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
Its painful isnt it. I hate myself for coming back
Nah, we're well versed. We've had 8 years cultivation now. It's become the norm. The only novelty to the current debate is the romanticism/loyalty.Ah finally somebody seems to acknowledge his own actions in the bigger picture... That's also some sort of progress.
I think, we should give the "but we're second" argument the funeral it deserves. At least in this particular thread because here, it misses the point. The outcome of a football match is depending on so many factors: luck, referee, ability of the players, game plan set by the manager, reactions to the opposition plan and so on. The level of coaching sure plays a role for the outcome but only a marginal one. If you look at the league table, it is not just the reflection of the outcome of one game but from many. So take the variety of factors for one game and multiply by the number of games. Plus even more factors are introduced: injuries, bans, transfers in the middle of the season, change of managers, runs of good form and way way more.
Us being second in the league could be solely on the quality of our players and a bit of luck with injuries. It could, nobody knows. With the naked eye, we guess that the most likely explanation is that it is down to a couple of factors: our strikers overperforming, our competitors underperforming for periods of time, injury free for most of the time, professional performances in some games, very good defensive performances in other ones and the ability to score some great goals. There are surely more and everybody is entitled to decide on his own, how big each factor is.
That's why most of the people in the thread focus on performances over results. The results are very very good but the performances doesn't match up. They are surely better, than what LVG and Mourinho serverd - surely. But I think you won't find a football fan arguing their case these days or even back then. So a) being better than that isn't that monumental step in the first place and b) why does the comparison to these two come up so often? Why don't we compare the current manager to others - managers the football world is agreeing on that they create well playing teams? Managers of teams we aspire to have the same quality as team?
This is a very important distinction and it has the potential to throw some of the merry-go-round arguments out of the window: if we want to evaluate, get a step away from relative comparisons, go to absolute ones. The target for our club is not to have a manager better than the former one(s) - it should be to have the best manager possible. This is the light in which we should discuss what the current manager brings to the table.
And while we are talking about LVG and Mourinho and how experienced and great they have been. So great we "have to know by now" that a good reputation manager isn't able to turn the ship around, there seems to be only one saviour...
I am getting triggered af with that notion... LVG has been axed by Bayern before, players were seemingly glad to get rid of him and his rigidity. It took a few month, that some mentioned, that he might laid the foundations for the machine they evolved into later with Heynckes. He didn't got chased by other clubs after, he went to take the role of manager of the international team, where he then served sh** on a stick in the world cup even though being able to advance quite well. He then was followed by Mourinho whose behaviour created mutinies with the teams he was axed from in Real and Chelsea. He sure has a great reputation and is a special character and I like the guy to bits for staying a character, but the notion he is a tier one manager these days is just wrong. He might be for people who only watch one game per month because his name sticks but everybody else was aware of his standing. It showed, seems like he only was offered the Spurs job at some point. There is a reason for it and this reason has been there before.
I am fine with people trying to defend the manager against some things in here, but some of the replies don't help the case.
Yes, no one is asking our players able to turn to Xavi & Scholes (This is just a extremely example to explain the coach cannot turn anything to everything). If the players cannot pass the ball even a simple 5 yard pass or loss the pass face by face, i do not think there is a system/coach can be turned them to able to pass. If Pep manage our team and play a possession football, he will sell them immediately instead of turn them to be able to make a simple pass in a professional football world.
Yes, we have many resources but midfield are not the first priority in the past few transfer window. The legacy was huge unbalance, dismal and aged when Ole took over.
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Did you have the same feeling when we finished 2nd under Jose?
It was obvious then we weren't going anywhere too.
| Our | Liverpool | Chelsea | Man City | Leicester | Spurs | |
| 10/11 | 29.3 | 97.73 | 121.5 | 183.61 | 26.6 | |
| 11/12 | 62.3 | 65.33 | 96.45 | 91.05 (1st) | 9 | |
| 12/13 | 76.45 (1st) (SAF Retire) | 70.6 | 109.7 | 61.95 | 73.25 | |
| 13/14 | 77.13 | 58.1 | 130.35 (Mourinho 1st full season) | 115.5 (1st) | 122.53 | |
| 14/15 | 195.35 | 151.43 | 137.7 (1st) | 102.8 | 48.48 (Pochettino 1st full season) | |
| 15/16 | 156 | 126.5 | 95.5 | 208.2 | 49.9 (1st) | 71 |
| 16/17 | 185 | 79.9 (Klopp 1st full season) | 132.8 (1st) (Conte 1st full season) | 215 (Pep 1st full season) | 92.1 | 83.5 |
| 17/18 | 198.4 | 173.88 | 260.5 | 317.5 (1st) | 88.35 | 123.5 |
| 18/19 | 82.7 | 182.2 | 208.8 | 78.59 (1st) | 114.6 (Rodgers 1st full season) | 0 |
| 19/20 | 226.78 (Ole 1st full season) | 10.4 (1st) | 45 | 159.52 | 104.3 | 148.5 |
| 20/21 | 83.5 | 82.65 | 247.2 | 177.8 (1st currently) | 62 | 110.5 (Mourinho 1st full season) |
| Total spent in 10 years | 1.37B | 1.10B | 1.59B | 1.71B | 0.51B from 15/16 | 0.82B |
| Ole: 310m spent | Klopp: 446m to make 1st title | No title achieved after spent 761m from 17/18 | Pep: 532m to make 1st title & 948m to make 2.5 titles | Rodgers: No title achieved after 280m spent from 18/19 | Pochettino: No title achieved after 474m spent from 14/15 to 19/20 |
Except Leicester's special moment at 15/16, even genius tactics manger Klopp and Pep were also need to spend 446m and 532m to make their 1st title respectively especially Pep injected heavily in his existing luxury bequest. If you compare with Ole spending and other genius tactics manger 1st title spending, it is still a cost of one top class player distance nowaday and we do not know that how many influence can be made by one Top star (like Hazard, De Bruyne or Van Dijk etc)
And if Ole need to catch up the competition in terms of spending, he need to spend more 219m with Klopp and 638m with Pep to equal the team quantity and quality of start XI and the rest in terms of money if quality and money is in direct proportion.
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The part I wrote up about loans, recruitment and scouting was a side note and saying that it isn't just down to coaching alone.
We've had world class, experienced coaches and its failed, miserably!
To simply say hire the most experienced guys = title success is silly.
There's no magical quick fix here.
We were playing fantastic football with Pogba and Bruno in the side for the most part. We were getting results out of relegation type sides who sit deep and we previously found difficult to break down. Lets just ignore the games like Leeds that we ripped apart, Southampton and Leipzig (home) and countless others.
Well it is a process and one that was quite clearly de-railed by Covid and hampered our transfer plans in the summer and we had to work on alternate signings.
Reality is in a league where all the sides around us have improved on last year bar Liverpool and with our forward line failing for any number of reasons Ole has performed nothing short of a miracle here.
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Fair enough regarding the side note. The world class manager narrative hardly applies to Louis as he definitely appeared past it and his process was probably not aided by his scattergun approach to player recruitment and sales. With Mourinho, he then inherited a bit of a mess and, more and more, in hindsight he was far from having a Mourinho-like team and as a consequence we did not play football that suited the players. I will say though that injuries became more of a problem after Ole came in, at least that's my recollection, and that's probably down to Faria (until he left).
I'm not ignoring the good games. At all. I would say though, that Leipzig at home is a bit of an anomaly, as they dominated us for most of the match and it was a short spell in the second half where their game plan went to pieces - as with some of our defeats, the margins can be quite small. What seems to stand out is that we have not for the most part looked like a fluid competent attacking side, but a very efficient counter attacking unit.
Agreed on Pogba and Bruno, they both need to play for us to look like a top side. I see incremental progress, better results in the league compared to last season, but our league performances last season - taking the season as a whole - was very underwhelming. The bar is low for improvement there. It's also hard to ignore the failure to capitalise once we're in a good position, the semi finals, being top of the league and then falling apart. But that's for another thread.
I certainly don't see a side that is better than the sum of its parts, and that would be closer to the miracle you are seeing Ole pulling off.
Do we agree on next season though? That that's when there will be no more excuses - that the team needs to consistently dominate weaker teams and not play underdog football against the better sides (bar maybe City) ?
just copying my thoughts about that from an earlier post...
"And while we are talking about LVG and Mourinho and how experienced and great they have been. So great we "have to know by now" that a good reputation manager isn't able to turn the ship around, there seems to be only one saviour...
I am getting triggered af with that notion... LVG has been axed by Bayern before, players were seemingly glad to get rid of him and his rigidity. It took a few month, that some mentioned, that he might laid the foundations for the machine they evolved into later with Heynckes. He didn't got chased by other clubs after, he went to take the role of manager of the international team, where he then served sh** on a stick in the world cup even though being able to advance quite well. He then was followed by Mourinho whose behaviour created mutinies with the teams he was axed from in Real and Chelsea. He sure has a great reputation and is a special character and I like the guy to bits for staying a character, but the notion he is a tier one manager these days is just wrong. He might be for people who only watch one game per month because his name sticks but everybody else was aware of his standing. It showed, seems like he only was offered the Spurs job at some point. There is a reason for it and this reason has been there before. "
Certainly - you are right - there is no magical fix. But because the non-existence of some sort of short cut, we are not eternally stuck with the only option of "let's see what happens and hope for the best". That's madness. Ole had 2,5 years now, he did an awesome job overall. Even the results are very very good. But the football we play is not. And there is a good chance, that this will lead to us plateauing at some point. We might get a feeling of that in the results against the stronger teams this season. None of them except for City in the last match, was dumb enough to have a go at us - why would they, everybody knows we are quite capable as soon as there is room to operate. City took a shot, they had a buffer of points. I would make a bolt assumption: wouldn't there be 10 points inbetween, Pep would have played the exact same way, he played the earlier games and that earned him a goalless draw where City looked the better side and a victory.
And once you are so familiar with Van Gaal: try to remember how much time it took him, to instill his way of playing the game into our team. I am not saying it was good and great and awesome. But he managed to do it in a few weeks, I remember me buzzing watching some pre-season game, where our ball circulation was a joy and a promise of the things to come. So all this talk that we are somehow not in the position to judge something because of the lack of some great players, is absolutely not convincing.
We had fantastic footballers on the pitch and it showed. I don't remember our performances being so much better, of course you will have more highlights the more high-quality players you have but that doesn't automatically mean "the football was fantastic". You surely are entitled to your opinion but I think it is pretty difficult to defend: especially as one of the games where we supposedly played so fantastic was decided by a volley shot by Pogba. I am not intending to take something away from the player, it was a great piece of skill but it was the exact thing, that this thread is partly about - a big dependency on moments of individual brilliance. We have some brilliant players. With the right system we could bring them into promising position more often. How fantastic would that be? We expect our players to come up with moves on the occasion, having a more systematic approach wouldn't put that challenge on them all the time - it would give them an arsenal to choose from.
And nobody ignores Leeds or the games you mentioned... but they underline the point I made above: We are great when there is space to operate. Leeds where down by two goals after 3(!) minutes and kept attacking us. Of course there will be chances for us. Leipzig went all in in the second half of the first leg and got trashed. So'ton played with 10 respective 9 men, at least one of the ones on the pitch had his PL debut on top of that. We have seen some great attacking that day, but there is some context that should prevent fans from putting too much emphasis on it.
I don't remember the countless others, I remember Sociedad that also had a go at us and were playing through our lines with ease at times. Still hadn't the firepower to make it count while providing us with very good conditions to play to our strength.
Yeah "they fail for any number of reason..."
Good to know, that our attacking patterns or a potential specific coaching are out of question for you on that. Would be simply unheard of to think, that the manager has any form of influence on that. At least not with only 2,5 years in the job. Last year more teams had a go at us. Because it wasn't as established how deadly we can be with space. Greenwood was a mostly unknown entity. Football evolves - managers adapt to new realities. To shrug that of by "if only Martial and Greenwood would be as great as last year everything would be so cosy" feels like one step taken on a 10 step walk.
And if there is time to coach technical basics to James within that admittably horrible schedule, there is time to coach some patterns. At least if the intention is there.
Let's all just hope. Hope that our players find their form. Hope for better players in the future. Hope that only very few of the new super players turn out like DVB. And if that hope gets disappointed, we are ready to bash Woody and the board again. Because they didn't do enough. What an outlook. It really is weird that some spoilt brats are not satisfied by that...
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“Ole had 2,5 years now, he did an awesome job overall. Even the results are very very good. But the football we play is not. And there is a good chance, that this will lead to us plateauing at some point.” [NZT above]
There’s a very long post above, with some decent points, but ultimately this is the key point here. Its absolute madness to want to sack a manager doing an “awesome” job who is obtaining “very very good” results, just on the off chance that he stops doing the awesome job and results get worse. Is it possible a new manager might do better? Of course, yes. However, it’s also possible they would do a lot worse. If a manager is meeting expectations, and Ole is probably exceeding any reasonable ones, you don’t sack him.
There’s a very long post above, with some decent points, but ultimately this is the key point here. Its absolute madness to want to sack a manager doing an “awesome” job who is obtaining “very very good” results, just on the off chance that he stops doing the awesome job and results get worse. Is it possible a new manager might do better? Of course, yes. However, it’s also possible they would do a lot worse. If a manager is meeting expectations, and Ole is probably exceeding any reasonable ones, you don’t sack him.
As much as I agree with the sentiment of this thread and genuinely can't believe how disorganised and amateur we look at times, I don't think this is the moment to judge Ole. This season is just too unique. Teams far better coached than us have had ups and downs even more pronounced than ours (hence why we're 2nd).
I watch us play - particular someone like Rashford who is supposedly our second most productive player - and he looks out on his feet from kickoff. And has done for...sadly...the whole season.
Professional footballers shouldn't have to play 2 times a week for a season. They've never been conditioned for it, and you can't just slip into that mode. City are the only team doing it well, and that's because they have a consistent system and two sets of great players for every position that fit that system. Almost like having unlimited funds and actual planning can lead to good outcomes.
I do believe we're poorly coached, I do believe there's a lack of defensive cohesion as well as attacking patterns and I do believe there are far better coached football teams out there. But Ole deserves to continue into next season, which will hopefully be a bit more normal, and he'll hopeful have been given a few more players that he wants.
Similarly, giving him a new contract is as bonkers as firing him.
I watch us play - particular someone like Rashford who is supposedly our second most productive player - and he looks out on his feet from kickoff. And has done for...sadly...the whole season.
Professional footballers shouldn't have to play 2 times a week for a season. They've never been conditioned for it, and you can't just slip into that mode. City are the only team doing it well, and that's because they have a consistent system and two sets of great players for every position that fit that system. Almost like having unlimited funds and actual planning can lead to good outcomes.
I do believe we're poorly coached, I do believe there's a lack of defensive cohesion as well as attacking patterns and I do believe there are far better coached football teams out there. But Ole deserves to continue into next season, which will hopefully be a bit more normal, and he'll hopeful have been given a few more players that he wants.
Similarly, giving him a new contract is as bonkers as firing him.
There was no suggestion LVG was past it at all, he arrived at United after dragging an injury hit Dutch side to world cup semi finals.
I don't buy into this Jose inherited a mess, Jose inherited a far better side than the one LVG did after going from Champions to 7th and confidence in the gutter. Jose took FA Cup winning and 5th place (level with City in 4th) over.
I agree we are hit and miss and I think that is down in part having no real depth in the squad. We lose Pogba and the wheels came off completely with his absence.
I absolutely believe Ole is doing a smashing job this season working with what he has. In his tenure he has arguably had 2 or 3 marquee /quality signings (call it what you will) in Maguire, AWB and Bruno. Cavani possibly falls into that sentiment, but his injuries and form have been an issue now for about 2 months at least now and he is a stop gap answer. Donny... god knows what that is about... doesn't seem to be a signing he wanted or the belief is he's not ready for the PL and playing regularly.
Outside of that were talking about squad level type players / for the future in James, Pellistri, Amad...
Yet he's managed a 12pt improvement on last season whilst many of our rivals like City, Leicester, Spurs etc have all more points on the board at the same point as last year.
Pep has spent about as much on 4 defenders as Ole has had for a squad rebuild, that's what we are competing with on top of the brilliance of Pep as well.
I think the expectation for next year will be to deliver some trophy with a genuine challenge...but that is dependent of course on further backing and giving him players that can take a spot in the team and deliver instantly.
With covid hitting our finances I doubt he'll be getting 2-3 big name signings, be lucky to see 2 I reckon with young lads having to step in as well.
Jesus man such a ridiculously long rant and it is quite easily pulled apart.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and you've based your opinion of LVG & Jose on what you know today and not on the day they signed with United.
LVG dragged an injury hit, poor Dutch side to the Semi finals upon arriving at United. He got fired from Bayern and Barca, what's your point? The latter in particular sack managers as often as we'd change our underwear!
Bayern aren't much better, they've went through over 50 managerial appointments in their history meaning the average time a manager gets there is 2 years.
We quite clearly have shown in patches (and you've admitted as much) that we can counter attack sides brilliantly. Aside from that obvious tactic / set up we do also on occasion play with a high press and contain sides within their own half and win back possession a lot higher up the pitch.
This high press however requires a huge amount of work rate and in turn squad depth and intelligent enough players to know where / when to press, which Ole quite clearly lacks at this point in time.
Both our fullbacks this season have improved immensely in terms of attacking output, in particular Shaw. His link up play between Rashford and Maguire who pushes on into oppositions right centre half / right full channel is absolutely evident for anyone actually watching our games, Maguire has been pivotal in the movement / team press of many, many goals this season.
I mean, we fell apart for simply losing Pogba and we get weeks on end of Fred / McTominay who were ran into the ground. Donny was injured and tbh, even when he has played has been extremely poor, maybe its one of those scenarios where he needs a year to adjust to the demands or maybe Ole just never wanted him and the board forced his hand on the signing? Who knows.
To go back to Fred / McTominay as well, for all their incredible work rate and passion for the club, they simply are very limited players and struggle often. McTominay can pop up with the odd important goal but expecting him to be some kind of Scholes / Pirlo esque midfield maestro seems a dream thus far.
But folks tend to ignore the blatantly obvious before them.
Any manager coming into this club when Ole did was looking at a minimum of 3 years work before getting near a title.
He inherited an absolute sh*t show of a 6th placed side, void of confidence, full of ageing mercenaries that were overpaid and underperforming and a bloated wage bill that limited investments.
In two and a bit years we've offloaded a tonne of deadwood, cut the wage bill dramatically, decreased the avg age of the squad by approx 4 and a bit years with a far great upside for the years ahead...whilst remaining competitive and achieving (most likely it seems) back to back CL campaigns.
What was our position and what date did Ole take over and what was the position he finished that season?
Can we keep this thread on topic.
Coaching - forget the players he did or didn’t get, the spending, the league position. Just analyse what we see on the pitch and what you like/don’t and everything that related to coaching.
Coaching - forget the players he did or didn’t get, the spending, the league position. Just analyse what we see on the pitch and what you like/don’t and everything that related to coaching.
To me this just shows we wasted a lot of money from 14/15 to 17/18. I might be wrong but I think the only starters still here that were bought during that period are Pogba and Martial (who might be gone soon). What a waste. This is the number one reason we are not competing for titles.
I actually thought our performances under him were better that season than they are now. Went to the shitter afterwards though.
We are playing some incredibly dull football at (many) times this season.
Jose first season was good football, second season I’d say was very comparable to this one although we’re not getting as many points this season. Style of play I’d say is generally similar but less defensive under Ole.
If you also correct for the huge inflation on the transfer market the (last two years before COVID), you could probably multiply the money Klopp and Pep spent with 1.3.
.With other words: don’t think Ole has spent a lot of money. Sometimes it looks like price/quality relation (players) is exponential, especially if Man Utd is involved
. So we can’t necessarily compare our spending with other club’s spending.Didn't hear many complain when we signed ADM? Falcao? Sanchez?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
But yes we are in a period of rebuild because of a 4 year period between LVG, Jose, scouting and the board we made a complete and utter mess of the club.
Not for ADM but there were plenty of questions about Falcao and Sanchez. I agree, that 4 year period set us back.
Honestly don't recall many complain at all... some quiet doubters in regards to Falcao as he had the injuries, but Sanchez by an large was one of the leagues best attackers prior to signing and then his form fell off a cliff and the injuries just never stopped.
That doesn't necessarily means Mourinho took over a better squad. Maybe our 2013/14 squad was better, but was managed by Moyes worse than what LVG did with his team?
Oh Moyes done a terrible job no doubt.
What team would anyone prefer to take over...
A) Premier league champions that drifted to 7th in one of the leagues worst defences at the time, void of confidence, ageing and in dyer need of a rebuild.
B) 5th placed team tied on points with 4th placed City managed by Pep, FA cup winners and having finished level on points and had an injection of youth in it with Rashford, Martial and co.
LVG walked into a nightmare, marginally improved us and was sacked...
Is that so? Alright, didn't feel that way after reading.
Speak for yourself, I just pointed out in my "long rant" that this surely isn't a hindsight argument. That's just you trying to brush the argument away. I live in Germany I read the articles, heard the interviews, discussed with Bayern fans - the sentiment was that they were happy LVG was gone. Because he showed the exact same stubbornness he showed to us. Heynckes took over and the team reached unknown heights. He took parts of LVGs play and created something new. When we appointed him, I know that all fellow German United fans, at least the majority on the transfermarkt.de forum were always pointing out that "some say he layed the foundations for Bayern" nobody was thinking he was an awesome manager, all were witnessing the way he had the Netherlands play. But LVG is a strong character and people were fed up with Moyes so they were happy to get somebody new in. By the way, it is interesting, that you think Van Gaal "dragged the Netherlands in the international tournament", so it seems like the manager is able to influence the football of his team without being able to influence the quality of personal. Wasn't that something you questioned in Ole's case because "he didn't get backed"?
That Mourinho came with with quite a few question marks over his heads, I am not going to get into that. If your memories didn't last that long, your problem, mine are still intact. There was happiness back then. But that was at least as much due to getting rid of the old manager. And because of hope. Hope that Mourinho might have changed... look where that hope has brought us ^^
I am not sure wether everytime Brunos engages the opposition defender alone and sprinting like a madman, pointing to others to do it too is already "pressing". But alright, yes on a few occasions we employed a high press, not a very coordinated one though but the efforts are there at least. When you see us being able to "contain sides in their own half" I often see an opposition team surrendering the ball to us and stay deep and compact. The way we do occasionally when we face better sides and when it often was hailed as tactical masterclass and professional performance. So I guess it is a perspective thing, right?
Yeah or he just lacks somebody to tell the players when and how to do it, right?
Immensely? Shaw was on 0 goals and 0 assists last year. Wan Bissaka had 4 assists. This year Shaw is on 5 assists 1 goal, Wan Bissaka on 2 goals and 2 assists. Maybe it is due to English not being my first language but I don't think, the word fits the situation. Certainly not on a "without a doubt" level. Wan Bissaka has been targeted by opposition managers because of his deficiencies on the ball, just saying to give some perspective. I am not bashing these players but praise like yours calls for perspective.
Yeah or DVB, being an Ajax player and therefor used to having a stringent system to play in, is just overawed because he struggles to recognize some efforts to play with the ball, like pass and move. This isn't even some sort of critique of our team, maybe Ole exactly wants that chaos approach and players who come up with their own ideas in attack. But it certainly looks like 'hit and hope' 8 out of 10 times and I would make the bold assumption, that if we didn't get Bruno, the most inform-player in the world right now (at least until a couple of weeks ago) or he didn't hit the floor running like he did, the results would be very very different. Who knows...
I agree, there was a shitload of work to do and undenieably Ole engaged parts of it admirably well.
But one aspect falls short - the football he plays and engaging apparent issues within our football. To this day we have issues defending set pieces, we don't take advantage from our own ones often enough. We transition very slowly, there is no movement without the ball. These are issues since Mourinho - they all are present to this day. Who is supposed to engage these issues if not the coaching team? You can point your fingers at players all day and of course they have to take blame as well to an extent. But the coaching team does as well.
And that, Mate, is what that thread here is for. It is to talk about the coaching, the performances. I don't even want to get rid of the current manager. Because he is doing such a good job that for me, there is no obvious successor right now. That is credit to Ole and his apparent qualities. But as a club, I think we would be stupid to not keep an eye on the manager market.
Reading some of the posts here feels like you have blind faith in transfers, you want to "roll the dice" with new signings. Hoping that at some point everything falls into place and all players click. This can work of course but I'd prefer a more proactive approach and us being getting better in "making players click".
My stance, and I think, that applies to way more people in here, isn't that Ole is doing a bad job. I just think he doesn't do such a stellar job that it is unthinkable that somebody else would be capable of it as well.
Yeah good points except for most of it would have happened most likely under any decent manager... As you say: Who knows. But the level of praise you have is borderline for me. Feels like the manager could steal your girl and you congratulate him for the efficient handling of the situation.
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People should be banned from posting such long posts as 
. /s
. /sYou seem to think I view LVG at the time as world class, there is a happy medium to be found here. He was still a top coach, quite clearly a very effective coach. His record spoke for itself. What he achieved was very much worthy of being given the United job.
Something you completely ignore in his time at Bayern is the fact he was 90 mins away from completing a unique and at the time, unheard of European Treble of Domestic double along with Champions league but to be stopped by none other than Jose Mourinho in the 09-10 season.
In the years prior to signing for United he achieved some insane feats
- Dragged a minnow of Dutch football AZ Alkmaar to a Dutch league title, 11 pts ahead of their closest rival and 12 ahead of Ajax! An unthinkable feat, closest to it in the premier league is Leicester winning the premier league.
- The aforementioned domestic double along with a champions league final in 09-10 followed
- Then a world cup semi final spot with the Dutch national side.
Looking at those, his last 3 jobs prior to United he has proven he was still one of the best coaches in the game. I've not said the football was scintillating viewing, he was however a highly intelligent and effective coach. I've no idea why that should be argued here? He clearly was.
As for that comparison then to Ole vs LVG's Dutch side... the obvious difference is that LVG faced 6 games in the world cup, Ole has to grind out 38 games. When LVG was tasked with turning United around in a 38 game season, he clearly couldn't deliver as quickly and effectively as Ole has... the evidence is there, is it not?
Well like I said, I've given reasons as to why it falters at times. Fatigue no doubt is primary and then lack of squad depth. Ole is getting every single last drop out of his best senior players. Maguire has played more mins of football than any other player in the league. Bruno, AWB and Shaw aren't that far behind either.
I don't see it at all as them surrendering possession, we retain possession very well in fact, until a point. That point is generally Bruno with his absolutely god awful passing and gifting possession again to the opposition time and time again. Its no surprise we fell apart when Pogba got injured, the supposed one man band Bruno has been nowhere to be found without Pogba.
I see a very clear coordinated high press at times, but of course that falls apart too due to the aforementioned reasons. It's not excuses its the reality.
A lot of our players have limitations and that is the reality.
We lose a Pogba and we lose his ability to pick out a pass long and short, we lose his ability to carry the ball, we lose his power to drive past players.. and then we inherit Fred who for all his efforts is a poor passer and lacks vision, can't pick out players at any real distance, can't carry a ball past opposition either... color me shocked then we perform worse. This isn't to say either Fred is the be all and end all of our issues, of course it isn't.
I could address the fact we don't have a natural right sided attacker either. We've had to stick square pegs in round holes with Greenwood, Rashford and James all taking up matches there.
That's not down to awful coaching, that's missing out on transfer targets in this instance most likely due to covid (Sancho).
You can't seriously believe that Ole is happy with players not moving, poor passing, creating space etc etc. Do you really believe Ole and his coaches don't attempt to train the players to move / pass in patterns. One of the coaches (Carrick) is arguably one of the most under rated passing centre mids of the last 15-20 years in the game and we've folks trying to suggest they don't know how to train some players on passing and movement and are quite happy to have players walking around and half as*ing it? Really?
The reality is, Ole like all managers has but 2 chances per year to offload players, in between those periods he can
A) coach them and play them and do his upmost to motivate them to perform better - clearly he is trying to do this as Tony was arguably one of our best player last year along side Rashford and Bruno. Tony though is doing his usual of cooling off every other year.
B) Drop them - and in this instance (Martial) he has time and time again in favor of Cavani, Greenwood and James. Is there some other world class player you know of, none of the rest of us do?
Look the facts are we've quite a few top professionals quite happy to work / play for Ole like Shaw, Bruno, Rashford, Cavani and hell even Lukaku who was sold on and still praised Ole very much.
If he was as sh*t, clueless and incapable of coaching as you and other caftards are trying to suggest we'd know about it, just like when some of the other players spoke up about how toxic and awful it was to work for LVG and Jose.
Have you seen how poor our fullbacks have been the last decade? Woeful!
Shaw going from broken leg, publicly abused by Jose to defensively solid and attacking threat and our Player of the year... yep.. immense.
AWB isn't on the same level fair enough but he's improved compared to last year where he struggled to have any impact in the other half at all.
See screen shot and logical reasoning above.. countless players praising his managerial skills thus far.
Mindboggling to think any coach would want what you describe.
This section I agree with in parts and disagree with others.
He isn't some kind of tactical genius, I think LVG tactically would be better or Klopp, or Pep.
But Ole can and has out smarted some of the best coaches in world football.
Are we seriously to believe he is as bad as you or some make out?
If he is as tactically naïve, poor at coaching how exactly has he managed wins against Pep (beaten him more than Pep has bested Ole), Rodgers, Jose, Klopp, Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Lampard, Ancelloti...
I don't think its as easy to say that any decent manager could do the same job. Lots of factors are involved.
I'll keep saying it, there is no magical quick and easy fix. There are so many factors at play, timing is a huge thing here as well. Jose possibly could of been a great United manager at a certain time, but we didn't get him then.
It's no coincidence that Liverpool and City have been successful as they have. Years and years of planning went into that to make them their coaches and the right build was done from top to bottom in the club and all key areas working together on that same goal and the timing of the appointments was perfect in both Pep and Klopps arrival.
If only it were as easy to say get Pep and were league winners.
If Pep got the job at United in December 2018 I'm absolutely certain we would still not be Premier league champions today. We'd play better football, easier on the eye but that doesn't guarantee success.
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The funny thing is, I was earlier trying to think of the big positives in the team LVG left behind and really couldn't think of anyone beside Rashford, Martial and De Gea. There was very little "co" there...
Also, being tied on points with the City team of that year is nothing to be impressed with. And it's actually worse when you already know they improved so much afterwards it was almost impossible to compete.
LVG left a team full of duds, and even worse - a team that was so different to what Mourinho would have wanted. I think I'd have taken my chances with a team that won the league with Fergie, even if it was a year later.
That City team was still full of world class talent, they made the Semi final of the CL that year and marginally went out to Real Madrid!
I think there was an intense focus on the CL and trying to win it and they lost sight of the league. I believe they lost to us and some other close rivals around the time of the KO stage in the Champions league if memory serves right.
Fast forward a year and we were 9pts behind City and the following year 19.
Of course, the City squad was great. But it doesn't matter how you put it - they had a crap league season. Tell me we were tied with any other City team in recent years and I'd say it was a positive sign...
Aye by their standards it was a drop in form no doubt.
But like I say there were mitigating factors clearly, another obvious one was the fact they announced mid season the impending arrival of Pep. Memory might be foggy on it by recall it was all over the media around Christmas and he was announced in Jan or Feb.
I had a look at the table around that time and guess what, City were 2nd.. only 1pt off Leicester the week prior to Pep being officially announced.
What followed was an implosion.
In their remaining 15 games the lost 5 times and drew 4.
Basically relinquished the title when it was still very much theirs to lose.
If you doubt this is plausible, remember when Fergie announced his retirement going into the 01-02 season. Players didn't perform and we drifted away and lost a number of games in that first half of the season. Managed to claw it back somewhat and ended up finishing 3rd that year after he done a u-turn.
League position has absolutely nothing to do with credentials in assessing coaches. Mourinho's football also having no identity but finishing second is testament of this. He's also the best manager post SAF taking league points into consideration.
Until Ole's team passes the eye test he will continue to be under scrutiny. It's beyond fan sensationalism papers, pundits and the media have picked up on the teams non apparent identity. The requirement is not to be the most fluent team in Europe but to have a foundation with the movement, possession and general play being good enough which provides a sustainable approach for the long term.
The fact you can argue it either way is damning for the supposed progress we've had under Ole's reign.
Sensible post. Whether Ole has laid the foundations for someone to come in ans do a better job moving forwards with the challenges that lie ahead is another way of looking at things. Its the big question. But Ole should be congratulated for the work he has done when really there was very little expectation that he would even achieve what he has done thus far.
I wonder of people seriously believe the lie that any manager would need 3 years to get close to a title challenge. We won league with just rvp pretty much. Leicester have won the fecking league. Embarrassing lowering of standards that seems set to continue. When you have people saying Ole has done an amazing job, incredible job, I really have to wonder what they are on. Ole is doing the bare minimum he needs to stay in the job. Nothing more nothing less. All this 12 points better off, let's wait till the end of the season and see. I can already see the excuses if we keep progressing in the europa.
I mentioned just yesterday that this is a myth. We struggled early on in that season because of our difficulties in changing the system (fitting Veron in and moving Scholes to a support striker role) and the backline (Stam leaving and Blanc joining). We then went on a terrific run which started weeks before it was announced Fergie was staying (and I actually think we went all the way to the top, but Arsenal went on a great run themselves).
So no, I don't think our performances suffered in any way because of Fergie's impending retirement.
And again, when it comes to City in Van Gaal's last season - how good they might have been doesn't change the fact that United finishing level on points with them that year did not signal having a particularly good squad.
I'm sure most of the fans would be more than happy to give a coach 3-4 years to win a title. That's under the caveat that we are seeing signs of a footballing approach that can get us there. So far, i'm seeing a squad of very talented individuals, who can look brilliant counter attacking, but far too often look slow, pedestrian, predictable and lack cohesion. Our individual players drop in form and we go through drab 0-0, 1-0 games. The system is completely reliant on the individuals - which is why we look even worse when we refer to bench options. We should be looking to implement a system that the players thrive in - the players themselves shouldn't be the system.
I don't think that will ever be enough with the current coaching climate in Europe.
Exactly...that’s what I said. Coaching only discussion.
I agree with everything you're saying buddy. It's just sad and crazy that the people in charge of our great club are inept and they have a segment of fans that are buying into this "process".
A bunch of very talented individuals could pass the ball a lot better than what we do. Players considered very talented at this level don't need to be told how to pass and move.
What we have is a very small handful of quite talented players coupled with a much larger bunch of hard working, dedicated, decent players.
Hence the ok performance levels and results.
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