We are an awfully coached team

Adisa said:
The strawman some people are putting up is soul destroying. No one is asking for us to win the quadruple, no one is asking for us to look like prime Barca.
All people are saying is if after 2.5 years, the team cannot resemble a cohesive footballing side, then there are serious problems and serious questions need to be asked.
How many good performances have we had this season? How many times have we played a match and you can say this team knows what it's doing and knows how to go about its business? Are you seeing a side that is evolving tactically and improving in it's way of playing...heck, what's our way of playing? We look like the footballing version of Boris Johnson. Obviously not prepared but quite good at bluffing its way to a result.
We consistently and that the key CONSISTENLY produce poor performances. Just close your eyes to the results for one(they're not even that great). We are consistently below par. This isn't his first season at some point, you have to start looking at how we are playing.
You have your head stuck somewhere if you think people want him to fail. Some people have no faith that he's good enough. There's a difference.
Leicester have key players missing but somehow still manages to look like a unit. We look like strangers 70% of the time. It's not acceptable for a club aiming for trophies.
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Agree with every word.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I keep seeing people say this but I don’t get why. Pretty much everyone had Liverpool or City as 1 or 2 and then United or Chelsea as 3 or 4. BBC did the poll and 22 of their 24 football pundits all had that top four.

Given we clearly aren’t finishing 1st (which no one expected us to) and there’s only 6 points between us and Chelsea in 4th, we’re very much bang on for what everyone thought surely?
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Plenty of fans had us outside of the top 4 after the transfer window shit show we had or struggling for that 4th place. Hell fans had as struggling for top 4 as late as 3 weeks ago.
 
I don't know how anyone can watch matches like that and come away not wanting a new manager.

We have talented individuals but no system. We sometimes 'press', often don't - and when we do attempt to press it's such a disorganised, dogshit mess. No defined pressing triggers like Leicester and other top teams clearly have...instead we have maybe one player (usually Bruno) pressing by himself, not hunting in packs systematically.

We're woefully coached.

You can't be a truly top team in the modern era without being good at pressing. Truly believe that....and we're absolutely fecking awful at it. Prehistoric.
 
Adisa said:
The strawman some people are putting up is soul destroying. No one is asking for us to win the quadruple, no one is asking for us to look like prime Barca.
All people are saying is if after 2.5 years, the team cannot resemble a cohesive footballing side, then there are serious problems and serious questions need to be asked.
How many good performances have we had this season? How many times have we played a match and you can say this team knows what it's doing and knows how to go about its business? Are you seeing a side that is evolving tactically and improving in it's way of playing...heck, what's our way of playing? We look like the footballing version of Boris Johnson. Obviously not prepared but quite good at bluffing its way to a result.
We consistently and that the key CONSISTENLY produce poor performances. Just close your eyes to the results for one(they're not even that great). We are consistently below par. This isn't his first season at some point, you have to start looking at how we are playing.
You have your head stuck somewhere if you think people want him to fail. Some people have no faith that he's good enough. There's a difference.
Leicester have key players missing but somehow still manages to look like a unit. We look like strangers 70% of the time. It's not acceptable for a club aiming for trophies.
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Spot on, nothing else needs to be said.

I'm beyond frustrated at this point, I just want to see something that makes me believe, but is it realistic to expect that to happen after literally seeing the same from us for years under the current leadership.
 
Martial'sEmergingSmile said:
I don't know how anyone can watch matches like that and come away not wanting a new manager.

We have talented individuals but no system. We sometimes 'press', often don't - and when we do attempt to press it's such a disorganised, dogshit mess. No defined pressing triggers, like Leicester clearly had...we have maybe one player (usually Bruno) pressing by himself, not hunting in packs as a team.

We're woefully coached.

You can't be a truly top team in the modern era without being good at pressing. Truly believe that....and we're absolutely fecking awful at it. Prehistoric.
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I agree with everything you said there, if we want to be a new Arsenal who's sole ambition is top 4 then yeah let's keep him in charge but if we want to challenge for any kind of honour then it's time to make a change because I'm sick of the constant shitshow as soon as the big trophies are there to be won
 
cyberman said:
Plenty of fans had us outside of the top 4 after the transfer window shit show we had or struggling for that 4th place. Hell fans had as struggling for top 4 as late as 3 weeks ago.
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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-should-be-the-realistic-expectations-for-2020-21.456474/

Seems like everyone were quite optimistic in July.

You were also expecting us to finish second anyway :

cyberman said:
I think we'll get top 2. I think City is in for a rough season
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Another thread in which the majority seems to think we'll finish top 4 in early Sep :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/your-2020-2021-season-predictions.457331/
 
Everyone saying we can’t compete with City due to their squad depth but even if we matched them their manager is leagues above ours so we would need a better squad. The best teams should have the best managers and we don’t have even a top manager. Ole has done well here but he won’t ever take us further
 
I know the media in the UK is full of ABUs but when I watch it in France, the comments about United being a boring team are basically the same. If a lot of neutrals don't enjoy watching us as a team (but appreciate the individual of some of our players) then it really isn't a conspiracy. Something isn't really working
 
cyberman said:
Plenty of fans had us outside of the top 4 after the transfer window shit show we had or struggling for that 4th place. Hell fans had as struggling for top 4 as late as 3 weeks ago.
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In any case, we're not exceeding expectations, Liverpool and Chelsea are underachieving. You shouldn't be thanking Ole for 2nd position, you should be thanking Klopp.
 
cyberman said:
Plenty of fans had us outside of the top 4 after the transfer window shit show we had or struggling for that 4th place. Hell fans had as struggling for top 4 as late as 3 weeks ago.
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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/predict-the-top-6-20-21-in-order.456505/

If you look at this thread the overwhelming majority had us top four. The noticeable change only happened after 06/10 which is when we lost 6-1 to spurs which can just be put down to knee jerking and the disheartening nature of that game.
 
We'd be very much 3rd looking at a similar season to last season if Liverpool hadn't imploded. We're really not seeing the sort of improvement we were all demanding for this year. I don't believe this team is suddenly going to click, there's no evidence to suggest that really, we've played the same sporadic way for years now.
 
Jesse is looking more like Messi away from the awful non coaching on offer here. 8 goal involvements in 7 starts at West Ham.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
Jesse is looking more like Messi away from the awful non coaching on offer here. 8 goal involvements in 7 starts at West Ham.
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Would like to agree but how many times we have seen those purple patches of Jesse? Last purple patch brought back quotes from SAF liking him to Tigana, I would like to see him keep this momentum until the end of the season before we can jump to conclusions...
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
Jesse is looking more like Messi away from the awful non coaching on offer here. 8 goal involvements in 7 starts at West Ham.
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He’s playing in a totally different team, the under dog team playing counter attacking football with acres of space to play in. Granted I’d love him back at united and he would have been effective for us today but don’t think his resurgence is to do with coaching
 
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Anyone still think coaching isn't important and Ole is getting the most out of this squad?
 
Judas said:
We'd be very much 3rd looking at a similar season to last season if Liverpool hadn't imploded. We're really not seeing the sort of improvement we were all demanding for this year. I don't believe this team is suddenly going to click, there's no evidence to suggest that really, we've played the same sporadic way for years now.
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Yep. Imagine if Bruno were to want out, we'd be back to being painfully average, consistently. He really has papered over serious cracks.
 
Crustanoid said:
What would happen if we sacked our entire coaching team?
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You would have to give time to new manager and his staff.

First defeat and you would get posters calling for sacking.

Not playing Barcelona tiki taka after 1-2 years and you would get posters calling for sacking.
 
Adisa said:
The strawman some people are putting up is soul destroying. No one is asking for us to win the quadruple, no one is asking for us to look like prime Barca.
All people are saying is if after 2.5 years, the team cannot resemble a cohesive footballing side, then there are serious problems and serious questions need to be asked.
How many good performances have we had this season? How many times have we played a match and you can say this team knows what it's doing and knows how to go about its business? Are you seeing a side that is evolving tactically and improving in it's way of playing...heck, what's our way of playing? We look like the footballing version of Boris Johnson. Obviously not prepared but quite good at bluffing its way to a result.
We consistently and that the key CONSISTENLY produce poor performances. Just close your eyes to the results for one(they're not even that great). We are consistently below par. This isn't his first season at some point, you have to start looking at how we are playing.
You have your head stuck somewhere if you think people want him to fail. Some people have no faith that he's good enough. There's a difference.
Leicester have key players missing but somehow still manages to look like a unit. We look like strangers 70% of the time. It's not acceptable for a club aiming for trophies.
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Amen. Some people just refuse to accept the truth.
 
Kush said:
He is about to pen a new deal, this club is clearly happy with him. They only care about CL money, as long as it's rolling in, they don't give a solitary feck what goes down elsewhere. Tragic times.
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Fully aware of this fact, so my thinking is we'll be languishing in 8th in December.
 
Couldn't have played more into Leicester's hand if we tried today. Forget the personnel for a moment (although we fecked that up from the start too), every man and his dog know how Leicester play, and we just let them do it.

May as well have not bothered showing up.
 
I am glad that I didn’t stay up till 3 am to watch my favourite team get beaten by Leicester. I doubt I will ever stay up to watch any game until Ole is out of Utd. Time to move on from this failed experiment. The real question is who is available to bring this club to the next level. I don’t think we will be in Top 4 next year. I see Chelsea improving, Liverpool’s swagger back, Leicester continuing to improve, City is City. With Ole still as our manager, we will be 5-6 in the table with Ole termination at the end of the season. I am quite sure about it.
 
Crustanoid said:
So what is the solution
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Of the two options I can think of, I think the club will opt for neither: a) buy him enough top players that will in and of themselves improve the team and its performances or b) hire a manager who can improve players and develop a great team.
 
Bastian said:
Of the two options I can think of, I think the club will opt for neither: a) buy him enough top players that will in and of themselves improve the team and its performances or b) hire a manager who can improve players and develop a great team.
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I’d love either of those. Can’t see either of them happening at the moment though
 
Adisa said:
The strawman some people are putting up is soul destroying. No one is asking for us to win the quadruple, no one is asking for us to look like prime Barca.
All people are saying is if after 2.5 years, the team cannot resemble a cohesive footballing side, then there are serious problems and serious questions need to be asked.
How many good performances have we had this season? How many times have we played a match and you can say this team knows what it's doing and knows how to go about its business? Are you seeing a side that is evolving tactically and improving in it's way of playing...heck, what's our way of playing? We look like the footballing version of Boris Johnson. Obviously not prepared but quite good at bluffing its way to a result.
We consistently and that the key CONSISTENLY produce poor performances. Just close your eyes to the results for one(they're not even that great). We are consistently below par. This isn't his first season at some point, you have to start looking at how we are playing.
You have your head stuck somewhere if you think people want him to fail. Some people have no faith that he's good enough. There's a difference.
Leicester have key players missing but somehow still manages to look like a unit. We look like strangers 70% of the time. It's not acceptable for a club aiming for trophies.
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Thanks. Myself and a few others have been trying to get this point across for some time now - but the conversation always turns back to the usual. 'Shite fan', 'no patience', 'best manager since SAF', 'second in the league' etc. Context seems to completely go out of the window for Ole. When Jose had us in second, most people weren't too confident as the signs were clear that the results were in no way sustainable due to the football being played. Yet we supposedly haven't learnt our lesson.

The issue here being - a fair few of the 'top' teams are heavily underperforming this season and next season I do not see them getting any worse. On the other hand, I have not seen much, if any, evolution from this team for quite some time now. If anything, you could argue, our strongest asset - our ability to counter, has arguably gotten worse this season given the drop off in performances against the top 6. In the other matches - the ones that win trophies, we quite consistently are very predictable and slow in our offensive play. Players don't look like they have a proper understanding on the pitch. The movement off the ball leaves a lot to be desired etc. These are aspects of the game we desperately need to improve in as simply having a great squad isn't enough anymore. We aren't the only fecking club that has money these days. That's why in the major competitions - the coaching on display is very usually the difference. Look at the past few CL winners and how dominant their style of play was. Look at the last few EPL teams.

The fact that teams can be cautious in their approach against us - just about completely nullifying our ability to play football, 2.5 years into a manager's reign is worrying. Even the top teams have been more cautious in their approach against us this season, which is why we have dropped a level in those games too. We only seem to be able to consistently play football when teams give us space for our pacey as feck players to operate in. That isn't the sign of world class coaching.

You have teams like Barcelona and Juventus with the two greatest players of all time arguably struggling due to poor coaching and tactical set ups. You have teams like Leipzig with very underwhelming players playing some great football and are neck to neck with a far superior Bayern team in the Bundesliga. Coaching is the most important aspect. If signing a World class players and 'understanding the United way' was enough, Ed might as well hire one of the CAF.
 
No problem with the coaching today. Team shape was very good for the most part. Lack of quality in midfield killed us again.

You could question the team selection, too many changes, question marks over fitness of at least three starters, balance slightly off in that sense.

Players looked a bit knackered and lacking sharpness. Again, not a coaching issue.
 
Crustanoid said:
So basically there’s no point in going all in slating Ole. The problems needing addressing are at club level in
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That first bit is a philosophical question. Do people voice their opinions and frustrations on here in the hope that it will have an impact, or just to converse or get something off their chest?

Second bit is not exhaustive. We have problems with the ownership, of course we do. But it doesn't mean there can't be other problems.
 
Adisa said:
The strawman some people are putting up is soul destroying. No one is asking for us to win the quadruple, no one is asking for us to look like prime Barca.
All people are saying is if after 2.5 years, the team cannot resemble a cohesive footballing side, then there are serious problems and serious questions need to be asked.
How many good performances have we had this season? How many times have we played a match and you can say this team knows what it's doing and knows how to go about its business? Are you seeing a side that is evolving tactically and improving in it's way of playing...heck, what's our way of playing? We look like the footballing version of Boris Johnson. Obviously not prepared but quite good at bluffing its way to a result.
We consistently and that the key CONSISTENLY produce poor performances. Just close your eyes to the results for one(they're not even that great). We are consistently below par. This isn't his first season at some point, you have to start looking at how we are playing.
You have your head stuck somewhere if you think people want him to fail. Some people have no faith that he's good enough. There's a difference.
Leicester have key players missing but somehow still manages to look like a unit. We look like strangers 70% of the time. It's not acceptable for a club aiming for trophies.
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I’m sure nobody wants him to fail.

I don’t agree with any of your analysis, though. I think we look better than most teams most of the time. Coaching is not the problem, it is the technical ability of a small number of players in key positions, primarily CM, that’s holding us back.

Now, obviously, you are looking for different things and I’m sure it’s true that you don’t like the way we play, but that’s a different thing to being badly coached.

It’s the same as ever, you get the best players you can. Every year you try to get better players. All the teams do it, and every year one of them wins (and the rest fail).

Sometimes a team seems to outperform its players and the coaches get credit there but, in most cases, these are purple patches, anomalies, coincidences where a collection of lesser known players turn out to be very good players (Leicester players of current and recent history are a great example).

History is littered with “great” coaches who did well at unfancied teams for short periods and then failed over and over. That time when they did well, it was probably the players, mostly.

I might have got sidetracked there. What I’m saying is: each time we get better players in, we will, on balance, get better results. Or maybe we won’t.

The great thing is, we’re going to see this all happen over the next couple of years.
 
Bastian said:
That first bit is a philosophical question. Do people voice their opinions and frustrations on here in the hope that it will have an impact, or just to converse or get something off their chest?

Second bit is not exhaustive. We have problems with the ownership, of course we do. But it doesn't mean there can't be other problems.
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Then, what is the solution
 
90 + 5min said:
Next year we should be winning some trophies. No question about that. But definitly fighting for 1st place.
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The culture of ‘this year doesn’t matter’ yet we should suddenly be winning the same trophies we struggle in next season doesn’t make sense.

We had a Qtr Final versus an injury riddled Leicester & a potential Semi against a Southampton team we’ve beaten twice already this season; next year we could get Citeh, Pool et al. in an earlier round so play the competition you’re in, not next years prospect.

Good teams make it past today & the Semi as a matter of course, it’s actually unfair to say this side should be winning trophies next season when we they’ve struggled before even making a final.

90 + 5min said:
I don't have blind faith and never will. I'm looking at this with open mind and seeing thigs for what they are.
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The way they are?

We made the Semis last year in the FA Cup & got to the quarters this season.

We look likely to get second in the league but the team we just lost to will also be looking at that position; Top4 looks sealed but we could rather easily come 3rd.

You expect the team to compete for trophies next season that they have struggled in this season, that’s the epitome of blind faith lad.
90 + 5min said:
And just so you know. I rather win league with boring park the buss - games then coming 2 with 200 goals and ultra attackin beautifle style. But that's just me.
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Not sure why this sits here. I agree. I’ve always believed a win is a win. If we were boring & winning fine but we’re bad & inconsistent.

If OgS delivers a title next season with a whole load of 1-0s no one will complain but that isn’t happening.
 
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