Another reason why Beek is looking so underwhelming at the present ?
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Hardest thing to coach is positional when you don’t come from that background and that’s where we are really weak for me. We are seemingly placing more emphasis on the physical side of the game (Maguire, AWB, Fred, McT) and happy to sacrifice technical skills.
Watch our players movement off the ball, watch our attempts at pressing, this all starts with positional coaching.
The brutal truth remains that Ole is himself (after more than 10 years of coaching experience) learning on the job. VDB would have unfortunately prospered under a different manager with a more purposeful versatility towards tactical tinkering.
Trying to control an Allardyce team is harder than trying to put out a fire.
This is where I think most people misunderstand fans who believe we’re poorly coached. It’s not a case of being entitled and thinking we should play beautiful football and win everything, it’s simply wanting to watch the team we love and be able to see a vision and plan to believe in.
LVG very very obviously coached that team to play a specific style.
Please don't create false stories.
In general I agree. But as you were kinda inferring reason Martial is the punching bag right now is cuz in addition to things not coming off his work rate is horrendous. I never cared about his defensive work rate but now it's actually worse I think both offensive and defensive work rate.
I mostly agree. Coaching cant improve our defence enough. They'll always be a liability in some games imo. Plus Martial isn't consistent or hard working enough.
That said, we seem aimless in possession if Bruno isn't playing well. There doesn't seem to be any plan to fall back on. A better manager would change that.
If Ole & Pep swapped jobs, who would finish higher us or City?
Pep has made John Stones & Ilkay Gundogan look like Maldini & Messi. Imagine them under Ole, sitting back & hoofing it to Sterling to counter. Rodri & Fernandinho shielding every game. Zero movement off the ball. Coaching plays a massive part.
With a more progressive, dominant style of football - our defence wouldn't need to defend as much, that's the point. Being a more dominant team, better in possession etc. helps both the offence and the defence of the team.
Counter pressing, dominating possession etc. - they are all ways to relieve pressure on our defence and frankly we are quite shite at both. Our posession and movement is aimless, predictable and lethargic. Our pressing is terrible and uncoordinated at times. We are capable of looking very good when counter attacking sometimes though.
Counter pressing, dominating possession etc. - they are all ways to relieve pressure on our defence and frankly we are quite shite at both. Our posession and movement is aimless, predictable and lethargic. Our pressing is terrible and uncoordinated at times. We are capable of looking very good when counter attacking sometimes though.
In general I agree with you. But Everton game also shows how we need to improve our defense. I mean we did everything you say. We controlled the game, had possession etc etc. But they had 4 chances, scored 3.
Pep with the current United squad would have made us a force to be reckoned with. People are underestimating his effect on the current City team way of play and are masking it by talking about money and stuff.
Well, it's a shame we have such managers managing our direct rivals. Well shit.
Well, it's a shame we have such managers managing our direct rivals. Well shit.
Yeah they don't fear him one little bit and rightfully see him as a right soft touch who lets them get away with anything
Yeah people might complain about how Chelsea operate but one thing they don't accept is consistently sub standard performances from their manager and coaching staff, then again they have the ruthless people in place and take action before the season is a total write off.
Of course, but games like that happen, that's football. When we are looking consistently shite defensively though, we need to start looking elsewhere. I do agree we need to improve our defence btw. I thought the Maguire fee was ridiculous then and it's still ridiculous now. Not sure he'll ever be good enough to be a captain for United. Arguably our best defender is always injured.
That being said though, our defence should still be better than it is. Maguire and Lindelof aren't particularly bad players, just not great
Is that you Woody
Ole continously put us through agony again and again. Sticking with James and Martial again and again show me that he doesn't know how to use this squad. Alex can make mediocre players to serviceable players on a championship team which Ole can't. If you look at all great managers who has great career, it would be their ability to make such players great. Kloop has it, Alex has it and few others. Ole and Jose isn't amy different, they will continously buy their way to success. Sadly for Jose, only City , Real, PSG and Chelsea has those money. Utd will never win the title with Ole.
I don't see a honest hope in Solskjaer to provide the team an identity even with the additions of a Sancho, Grealish and defender. The best chance Ole has at success here is that the players can somehow go an entire season relying on their own individual intuition and adaptation to blocked defences.
Yeah any chance we could get Howe until the end of the season and then reassess options in the summer
State of this thread, a couple of bad results and they're out of the woodwork screaming for the managers head.
Second in the league behind a city side absolutely on fire after a questionable holiday over Christmas.
There was always going to be a crash, suck it up people, take the rough with the smooth.
Second in the league behind a city side absolutely on fire after a questionable holiday over Christmas.
There was always going to be a crash, suck it up people, take the rough with the smooth.
Starting to become a trend, isn't it? So far, under Ole, we've been absolute trash except for a couple of months each season where we manage to play well for 10-12 games or so, salvaging just enough points that the season isn't a complete and utter write-off. But only just, and no more than that. But before and after that one string of good results, we're horrendously awful. Nevertheless, that one string of results convinces people that Ole is actually doing great and bla, bla, bla. I have no reason to believe this will change. We've seen no signs that it would. Are we going to give him a third season where we once more start off hopeless, get a dozen or so decent results around the middle, and then collapse again? Again?
If, in my personal line of work, I'm completely inept 75% of the time but occasionally manage to do well for a couple of months, I'm not keeping my job. I'll be sacked after two years at the very most. If I spend the considerable majority of my time at any given place of work doing far, far worse than even the most reasonable expectations, I'm out the door as soon as that trend becomes clear. I don't get third and fourth and fifth chances. At the end of the day, you can't get by on doing well a small portion of the time. If your mean level isn't at least decent, you're out. So far, under Ole, we've spend far, far more time being absolute rubbish than we have being good. That's not acceptable. It just isn't.
Under Ole, we've been disastrously awful 75% of the time and pretty good (but not really great) 25% of the time. That's not even slightly close to good enough. A manager whose team is completely hopeless more often than they're okay is not a good manager, and that's just the fecking reality of it. It's just the self-evident truth. Sorry, but it is. Given this club's finances and the performances that we've seen with our very own eyes that these players are capable of, this is simply unacceptable in the long term. It's just not working. A two-month run of good form each season does not change that fact. We're never going anywhere with Ole. He simply doesn't have the experience, and that's abundantly clear by now.
If we hadn't had the blind luck to sign Bruno at the high point of his career, we'd have been fumbling around at 9th place or so. Now that he has hit a spot of bad form, the entire squad has imploded and we're dropping points to teams that a lineup of this financial caliber should never even come close to struggling against. There is no excuse. We briefly looked okay because one player was having the best half-season of his life. Without that, Ole would be the laughing stock of the football world from the start of this season, as he is now fast becoming.
Can we stop with the crazy managerial appointments? Do we have to try cooky, unusual choices every fecking time? Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole, all have been appointments with asterisks. Managers who had either never proven anything whatsoever or were known to be unpredictable and without recent success. When Ole inevitably gets the sack, can we please just appoint someone who has actually shown that they have what it takes within the last couple of goddamn years, instead of yet another experimental gamble? Jesus tittyfecking Christ. How many times in a row do we have to suffer through a manager whose credentials come with an undeniable "yes, but..."
If, in my personal line of work, I'm completely inept 75% of the time but occasionally manage to do well for a couple of months, I'm not keeping my job. I'll be sacked after two years at the very most. If I spend the considerable majority of my time at any given place of work doing far, far worse than even the most reasonable expectations, I'm out the door as soon as that trend becomes clear. I don't get third and fourth and fifth chances. At the end of the day, you can't get by on doing well a small portion of the time. If your mean level isn't at least decent, you're out. So far, under Ole, we've spend far, far more time being absolute rubbish than we have being good. That's not acceptable. It just isn't.
Under Ole, we've been disastrously awful 75% of the time and pretty good (but not really great) 25% of the time. That's not even slightly close to good enough. A manager whose team is completely hopeless more often than they're okay is not a good manager, and that's just the fecking reality of it. It's just the self-evident truth. Sorry, but it is. Given this club's finances and the performances that we've seen with our very own eyes that these players are capable of, this is simply unacceptable in the long term. It's just not working. A two-month run of good form each season does not change that fact. We're never going anywhere with Ole. He simply doesn't have the experience, and that's abundantly clear by now.
If we hadn't had the blind luck to sign Bruno at the high point of his career, we'd have been fumbling around at 9th place or so. Now that he has hit a spot of bad form, the entire squad has imploded and we're dropping points to teams that a lineup of this financial caliber should never even come close to struggling against. There is no excuse. We briefly looked okay because one player was having the best half-season of his life. Without that, Ole would be the laughing stock of the football world from the start of this season, as he is now fast becoming.
Can we stop with the crazy managerial appointments? Do we have to try cooky, unusual choices every fecking time? Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole, all have been appointments with asterisks. Managers who had either never proven anything whatsoever or were known to be unpredictable and without recent success. When Ole inevitably gets the sack, can we please just appoint someone who has actually shown that they have what it takes within the last couple of goddamn years, instead of yet another experimental gamble? Jesus tittyfecking Christ. How many times in a row do we have to suffer through a manager whose credentials come with an undeniable "yes, but..."
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Jesus Christ.
My head hurts.
I have the Dutch coaching book. I have read it many times and of course seen them play a lot too. I understand why DVB is lost. Dutch move the ball. it is one touch and move to another space. `the whole team should understand it. They look at the third pass while our players do not know even the first pass.
`we do not seem to be coached at movements off the ball at all. When we get the ball, it is heads down and sprint with it until you hit traffic and then lose the ball. Honestly Ole has done as much as he can and we need to bring in a proper coach who can take us to the next step.
`we do not seem to be coached at movements off the ball at all. When we get the ball, it is heads down and sprint with it until you hit traffic and then lose the ball. Honestly Ole has done as much as he can and we need to bring in a proper coach who can take us to the next step.
Yeah and so does mine since March 2019 when we made that disastrous decision
Sad to say he will be safe as houses if we make top four
I agree with the OP.
One is a manager with a claim to be one of the best of his generation. Ole isn't even in the same discussion so it's a moot point. We are not going to get Pep as our manager.
I'd like to forget about the coaching and look at the set up of a team. The most important thing is trust. Do you that the guy in front or behind you to do their job, and that effects the way you play. If you trust them you can play freely with belief but if you don't, you are constantly worries a mistake by you or them will cost you the game. This United team don't trust each other. They obviously don't trust Maguire and Lindelof or Van De Beek when he comes on. The full backs are over concerned about what's behind them that why when defending they drift in to close gaps. There is NO BELIEF. Under Fergie everyone believed and if you didn't you where moved on, because he believed in his players. I am not totally convinced Ole does or that the players believe in his ideas.
I admire @Ali Dia and @Adnan for their staunch belief that Ole is going to get it right when he has that CB, CDM, RW, RB & ST he says he needs to compete with the other top sides. One thing that I can say is I am not a knee-jerker who constantly flip flops on Ole whatever the result because my view has been the same for the last two years. The thing that frustrates me the most is his stubbornness and general favouritism towards certain players while others are left out in the cold, then of course not being unwilling to appoint some experienced coaches to help is another bugbear as well
I am Ole out mate but that's not really the argument here. Coaching will never trump attitude and/or talent. Sir Alex had shown the door to more talented players/who were less busy bodies then the lot I mentioned. I repeat the old man himself wouldn't have managed to make Maguire or Lindelof faster or Martial bother to play football for the entire 90 minutes. What Sir Alex would do better is having the spine to make a cleanup. Ah and he wouldn't have spent that silly money on Maguire either.
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Exactly
Against the small sides, United is forced to play with a high line. That means they need to commit more bodies forward. Now our defensive core is diabolical in such circumstances. We've got 2 slow CBs with no leadership and no positioning whatsoever. If Maguire moves forward then we lose the only CB who can win a header for us and once up it takes him 10 minutes to get back. Meanwhile our goalkeeper doesn't leave his line even if he's goal is on fire. There's zero coordination, zero communication and when the referee start taking decisions against us no one bothers to even contest that because our captain simply can't be bothered.
I criticise Ole for buying Maguire especially at that ridiculous fee. However the defence is dire and there's very little coaching can do.
Carrick's fault
McKenna's fault
Mike Phelan's fault
Fletcher's fault
but not Ole's
McKenna's fault
Mike Phelan's fault
Fletcher's fault
but not Ole's
I honestly don't know if he will get it right, but he's raised expectations once again and is on course to finish in the top 4 in consecutive seasons which neither LVG or Mourinho managed even with their CV/resume.
Hopefully he gets the players he wants and next season will be the time to judge him because quite frankly he's doing more than fine right now imo. He inherited a squad that had been coached to play a reactive brand of football so it was always gonna take him time to get things right. Julien Nagelsmann for example inherited a squad that was coached to play a high line in a very aggressive manner with the focus on verticality which made life a lot easier for him due to his own footballing principles being in sync with his predecessors (Hassenhuttl & Rangnick)
I wonder if hes been put on here by the club. Wouldnt surpise me in the slightest as he never sees anything wrong.
So if there was always going to be a crash then hes not the man to win us the league and therefore needs replacing. Glad you cleared that up.
They all know how to use the players they have.
User tag checks out.
Just kidding, I do see where you're coming from, just don't think it's that bad.
I think Ole has done good things for the club. The three year contract after his early work was in my opinion always about stabilizing and bringing some sort of ethos back to the club.
Many of us wanted him to go above and beyond his remit, of putting us back om track, and there was probably a little bit if romanticism about an ex legend taking us back to the promised land after SAF.
A lot of things have worked against Ole, and I don't just mean the turmoil created by managers after SAF, but also the work he had to do to get rid of players, who on paper, were very good and on high wages (lukaku, sanchez). Also I suppose you can include the Pogba saga into this.
Having got us to where we are and I agree it hasn't been pretty and I am often left frustrated with, what seems to me to be a lack of ideas and persisting with the same old same old.
I think Ole has done what he was hired to do, and I don't think he currently fills me with confidence that we will be winning any major trophies any time soon.
However the cautious side of me says look at the mess created between SAF and Ole. The wrong man now could set us back again.
Many of us wanted him to go above and beyond his remit, of putting us back om track, and there was probably a little bit if romanticism about an ex legend taking us back to the promised land after SAF.
A lot of things have worked against Ole, and I don't just mean the turmoil created by managers after SAF, but also the work he had to do to get rid of players, who on paper, were very good and on high wages (lukaku, sanchez). Also I suppose you can include the Pogba saga into this.
Having got us to where we are and I agree it hasn't been pretty and I am often left frustrated with, what seems to me to be a lack of ideas and persisting with the same old same old.
I think Ole has done what he was hired to do, and I don't think he currently fills me with confidence that we will be winning any major trophies any time soon.
However the cautious side of me says look at the mess created between SAF and Ole. The wrong man now could set us back again.