I was listening to the latest episode of the No Question About That podcast (formerly Rant Cast). They were discussing tactics and Ed mentioned that McKenna and Carrick were coaching 3-5-2 and then Solskjaer and Phelan were picking tactics and players separately and going with a 4-2-3-1. They also mentioned that Solskjaer rarely does any coaching and leaves it up to McKenna and Carrick.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
That's your business
It's anyones business but he isn't too far off the mark. If there is something to fight for Ole is never going to incorporate youth. Greenwood yeah but is that really a master stroke? His squad management is notoriously bad which has been pointed out on here more than a million times.
The progress that has been made is that we now have better players but all the same faults keep showing in his tactical gameplan so the squad is showing progress but unfortunately the manager isn't.
Good for you.
The squad is on the brink of being excellent because of this very manager and his staff. It annoys me no end people act like it just happened by chance. All this talk of he has always been incompetent. Yet what he and his staff have worked to build is the very thing you are using to kick him with.
Its even more hilariously that so many seriously thinks those of us not willing to just pull the trigger on his reign, so early in the season, are wedded to his being in the job long term. We actually knew he was always going to have to be replaced by someone better after his rebuild job started to come to fruition. We just desire the club to pick the right man to progress the club forward from the foundations he will leave behind. So are quite happy for them to take time to do it.
Rather than do it now then pick a guy like Conte just because his CV is great, who would destroy those foundations just to build his own...all in the name of a short cut to silverware.
Oh dear, looks like we have another one……
You’d think before Ole came in we were in relegation battles and hadn’t sniffed a trophy in years.
What actually happened was we’d won three trophies in 3 seasons and finished in our highest position and got our highest points tally since fergie left.
You’d think before Ole came in we were in relegation battles and hadn’t sniffed a trophy in years.
What actually happened was we’d won three trophies in 3 seasons and finished in our highest position and got our highest points tally since fergie left.
Holy feck.
Christ, we've still got a live one. Has he just woke up from a coma?
I agree the squad is on the brink of something and I've no problem giving Ole credit although it would maybe be nicer if he'd unearth players before they actually made a name for themselves like Salah, De Bruyne, Tielemans, Dias etc etc but hey ho, can't have it all but there's no way on earth I'm giving any credit to the coaching staff whatsoever. Why would I ever do that? They as a group should be nowhere near a top club like United and there's plenty of evidence to support that.
I do agree with you about Conte. I understand supporters being disappointed on him not coming because with the squad we have he'd have a very good chance of winning trophies but personally I'd like us to go down the Ten Hag/Poch route. Of course there's no guarantees of him succeeding but I think it's clear Ole doesn't have the knowledge to consistently win us titles and things need to change. If I knew 100% that Ten Hag was coming at the end of the season then I'd have absolutely no problem keeping Ole on until then but as I don't then I want Ole gone for my own sanity. We all know how badly this club is run. Scraping top 4 and a half decent run in the CL will probably be enough for him to continue next season and the squad put together doesn't deserve that and quite frankly the supporters don't either.
It kept him in the job because the circumstances. Lowered expectation. His competition is Brendan Rodgers Leicester, Frank Lampard (finished on same point) for the first full season. 3rd place on 66 points, which exactly same point tally the season before. A season was destroyed with Mourinho meltdown, then Ole's post full time appointment relegation form!
Last season, again lowered expectation with restrained spending due to COVID affecting revenue. Couldn't mount title challenge. Won nothing. Lampard set Chelsea back for half the season, while Klopp defence crisis leaving Pep comfortably walking the league unchallenged. Finishing higher than Chelsea and Liverpool looks great on the paper, but not sustainable as they underperformed. Chelsea showed sign of their real level by winning CL, making FA Cup final, making top 4 with 67 points despite only had 29 points after 19 games when Lampard got sacked (average 2 points per game). Challenging all fronts and that point average while new to the league is impressive. The league form from game week 19. Klopp Liverpool had shown in the past they're capable of greatness, so with credit on the bank, they're expected to come back in new season.
Now this season, with quality addition to the squad the expectation is raised . Anything less than a title challenge is failure. Winning one of the domestic cup is also on agenda. In the reality, continuing of last season performance with the fact that result starting to catching up, this team already look like being left behind by the title contender this early. With high expectation, the lack of improvement is being exposed. With Spurs having Conte on board, even the 4th position is not guaranteed.
Come on guys it's a very tough job spending the clubs money. Not everyone can say i need a CB and then identify the 80 million CB the club are already heavily chasing. I mean who had heard of AWB and Varane before Ole signed them!
This is the biggest issue for a lot of us I think. I'm severely disappointed we didn't get Conte. He wanted to manage here. He even leaked players that he'd be happy to work with. I think it could have gone sour but I think that's just how managing works now. Klopp and Pep are like the two longest tenured coaches at top clubs and the moment either of them start to fail consistently like Ole has, they'd be gone. I'm a Red Sox fan so I'm familiar with FSG and they have no qualms whatsoever with getting rid of a coach who's past his expiration limit. If Klopp stops playing good football and not winning things he'll be gone. They've done it to World Series winning managers shortly after they've won. City is obviously not going to give Pep much leeway as Mancini was on a relatively short leash and so was Pellegrini. Bayern sacks managers regularly (wasn't one of their sacked within a few months a few years back?), Madrid is a carousel, Barca is a carousel, PSG the same. It's just how the game is, and I get why long time fans of football may not like it, but it's just how it works.
But our board has never once fired anybody until they were absolutely forced to. They just plod around hoping that the managers will fix whatever problems are caused by them/the managers themselves/players/whoever. They disguise this as being "loyal" when in reality it's just them trying to avert responsibility for failures. If they came out and fed some bullshit PR excuse of "Ole will be moving into the boardroom for our club" or some stupid thing to cover their ass and began looking at managers for next season fine, but I have absolutely no faith in them making a proactive decision of replacing him at the end of the season if we get 4th and that scares me (our squad getting 4th may be the single worst feat in history). That's why I'm absolutely crazy about getting a caretaker/short term fix in. I don't want what is already 3 years of mediocrity festering more.
Watching Moyes' West Ham create chance after chance and then us, the difference is stark. Moyes is several times the manager Solskjaer is and yet got 4x the time he did. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't the answer either but the amount of chances Ole has got is ridiculous.
Credit to Ole for buying James, Diallo, VdB, Sancho, Telles, Pellestri and never using them. Well done to Ole and co. for taking us from 2nd to on par with Arsenal and West Ham who are managed by lego Pep and David Moyes, the man who failed miserably at OT. Also, congrats on failing to win the EL which Jose did in his first season and the FA Cup which LvG delivered whilst knowing he was losing his job.
Progress is having unlimited money, job security and achieving absolutely feck all at, supposedly, the biggest sporting team on the planet. Thank the heavens for Ole - where would we be without him? I shudder at the thought of a United without Ole as our manager.
This Red Indian dude needs to smoke some fecking peace pipes
I have to say I'm not that disappointed we didn't sign Conte. Not because I don't think he's a great manager because obviously he is but the way our club is run I could see it ending badly. Just a feeling I have but it's enough for me.
TBH I don't think clubs like City and Pool have to worry too much about their managers going stale. I get the impression that both Pep and Klopp set themselves targets and once they achieved them they're gone. With their style of managing it has to be exhausting for both players and managers. If rumours are true Pep wants to leave in 2023 to manage a national team which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it's Spain with Enrique going the other way. Ready made replacement and Klopp is rumoured to be leaving in 2024 and take a sabbatical. Of course a lot can change between now and then but we have to be ready to take advantage and I'm truthfully shitting myself that Ole does the bare minimum to stay for another season which is why if 3 league loses on the spin is what it takes then I don't care how plastic I'm called, I'll take it but not in the CL.
I agree about getting a caretaker in until the end of the season. How much worse can it actually be? If Ole showed just an inkling of taking us forward then I'd have my doubts but he hasn't so I don't.
I think this is probably the first time in 15 years I’m going against you but your latest post is from my perspective mostly inaccurate.
No Chief, it didn’t ‘just happened by chance” but so we‘re very clear just have a look at our costs buying all these so called gems. Not one single player except Bruno and maybe Ronaldo has delivered above expectations. None of them were unheard of and all of them except Diallo where widely discussed on this and many other fan forums long before we bought them. Even a blind chicken could have picked all these players with all the money United had in their hands.
I don’t going to criticize Ole for buying good players but I’m not going to give him to much credit either. I think any average redcafe member could have done similar job without to much fuzz. Where is the hidden gem? Where did we bought a bargain? Donny? Maguire? Jadon?
I also don’t agree with you about Conte. What kind of foundations would he destroy?
Our excellent defensive record?
Our great attacking patterns?
Our ability to keep possession?
Ole’s great management where he‘s playing unfit and sometimes injured players to the ground?
Ole’s ability to always pick his own favorites even when they are playing like shit?
His stubbornness with keeping the same 4231 formation even when we drop points game after game after game?
Just to mention a few things. What other foundations are you thinking about? The United way? Our unique DNA?
Or some other special thing that only Ole Solskjaer could have done?
Couldn't have said it better,
what foundation has been laid? Utd have been awful all over the field this season.
I am far from convinced a top 4 finish. Without being within 6 points of the champions and no trophy will allow him to keep his job. Ive personally always believed his contract extension was an exoression of gratitude and thank you for the job done thus far. I do not believe they are wedded to him being here for the long term once this team is ready to compete. For it will simply be above his ability. If he gets the missing piece (the holding midfielder) this squad lacks I'm January. Nothing less than a trophy and at worst a top 2 finish close to the champions will enable him to keep in the job
Lets go through their favoured XI
They bought AWB. Our first actually capable and natural right back since Rafael.
They restored Shaw to his best form. From the brink of being written iff
They bought both Maguire and Varane. Both purchases improved our existing defence.
They made Fred viable. Before them Fred was a write off
Under them Greenwood has thrived. He is currently a fixture in the first team. Getting more game time than Cavani, Sancho, Lingard, Mata and Martial
They bought Bruno. Nothing needs to be said of him
CR7. Has basically been the king again.
So sorry. I don't buy the childish narrative "a blind chicken" could have done that with all the money. It's over the top and provable bullshit. Moyes, LVG and Jams reigns are all the proof one needs
One doesn't have to have any special love for Ole nor his staff to give them the respect and credit they deserve.
1. A path way to the first team for youth. Greenwood is in. The likes of Diallo, Elanga, Shoretire et al are all knocking the door. Under a Conte without maturity of a De Light or Rooney they'd never get a sniff.
2. Conte is wedded to back 3 formations full time. The squad that is being built is heavily suited to the 4-3-3- & 4-2-3-1. Only piece lacking is a top class 6 to glue it all together. He'd have had to rip the currently built squad apart to prime it for what he wanted. With our kind of board that would take 2 summers.
3. He'd be a complete change in football direction. Basically another turn at the round about after Moyes, that got us where we are in the first place. Serious clubs bring in someone to build on what the previous on left behind. They don't bring a person who will break most of that down. Even worse he wouldn't be here long term and most managers out there are not back 3 managers. So we'd be turning on the round about again, at the starting line, as our rivals race off in the distance for another lap around the win track.
4. Our fans are hypocrites. They have never been strictly wedded to winning football alone. They are wedded to winger/wide forwards based football. They are wedded to attack oriented football. They are wedded to entertain first football. They are wedded to United giving youth a chance regardless of how mature they are.
Meanwhile Conte is wedded to fullbacks. Is a transition manager. Is a win first entertain, second manager. He hardly touches youth unless they are as mature as seasoned pros They'd be the first to moan and hate him at the first sign of a slow down. I don't even have to mention how they hated Mourinho battling our board in the press. Conte is even more forthright
If things were as rosy as you paint. Why the feck do you think we hired an Ole? We should have stuck it out with the guy who brought those things. After all he is the biggest proven winner outside of Guardiola....
Because Jose has started to turn the place toxic, he had to go. Ole was a breath of fresh air through the place, but that's not always a recipe for success for long term. For me the clear solution was Ole to see out that season then we move onto a long term appointment.
I've seen the discussion above about how much credit he needs to take for the players we've signed, and I suspect the reality is somewhere in between. No player is a guarantee, but he's only really signed big name players, he's not shown an ability at all to identify a player and I'm not sure you can so much credit him for giving Greenwood time, Greenwood has smashed the door in himself.
Moving on though, he has helped to re-shape a squad to something much more positive, but the main problem is they are playing like crap. He's been here 3 years and its almost like its his first month in a new job. The team is hugely less than the sum of its parts, and that's the opposite of what you expect from a top coach. He has no body of work behind him that we can use to say he has the ability to turn it around and for me the most daming thing is to ask "if Ole left, which of the following clubs would sign him (assuming they didn't have a manager): City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Barca, Real, Atletico, Bayern, Dortmund, PSG, Juve, Inter, Ajax". Not a single one, we have a manager no other top club would even consider hiring.
Rosy? Not what I implied. It was rubbish under lvg and Mourinho and it’s rubbish now. Except now we don’t win anything.
It’s just weird how the very notion that things are much better now is based on something that can’t be quantified by results/football on the pitch and trophies, you know the things that mattered under sir alex, the Manchester United way if you like.
Now it’s all about levels of ‘toxicity in the atmosphere’, ‘squad building’ and ‘the future’ that determines if one manager is more successful than another. So basically things that are subjective for the most part.
If they are knocking on the door, at this moment, they must have very long arms.
Honestly, they are nowhere near the first team. Even Sancho, a £75m player, cannot get into the first team. If we stick to 5-3-2, Greenwood's and Rashford's time on the pitch is going to be cut severely. When do you think these youth players are going to play? We aren't even in the League Cup, so there is no time there. We have 6 players for 2 positions on the pitch.
Solskjaer has brought through Greenwood. That is all. He does not have this great history of playing youth players. Even when we don't need to play the first team, he refuses to give the youth/squad players minutes e.g. Sociedad last season when we we won the first leg easily. He is a manager who does not trust his squad, so he is not going to give youth players any more time on the pitch.
One thing people are missing about the transfers is that it coincided with massive changes in our transfer department. Do we know that Solskjaer is really responsible for the signings or is it the improved committee? I think people forget we were linked to Fernandes and Maguire before Solskjaer was even made caretaker, so it is doubtful he had much say in the Fernandes signing. My opinion actually leans more towards the improved management of transfers at the club than Solskjaer being responsible.
The transfer side is fixed. Now, we just need to fix the manager position.
if you want an eye-opener, go down the Premier League table until you reach a club where the fans would be happy to replace their existing manager with Ole. How far do you have to go?
This isn’t anything new, we haven’t been playing well for nearly two years, we’ve constantly won through moments in games from individuals,
The mistake was giving him a long term contract when we had absolutely no reason to. He was a great interim manager, but we’ve seen what happens with these romantic appointments in the past, he managed to clear the toxicity that was festering for a while under mourinho, and that should be applauded, it just blows my mind that the board then felt the need to extend this longer than it ever needed to be, it’s almost like they’re thinking “hey.. remember when we managed to get rid of that awful mourinho, and replace him with someone everybody loves??… well we’re going to try and live in this bubble forever”
A competent board would be able to see our struggles on the pitch and they would t accept it. we don’t play anywhere close to modern attacking organised teams, in every game we look second best, no matter who the opposition is! The fact that they’ve let this go on so long is quite frankly criminal..
I only see one way out of it, and that is never letting it happen again.. bring in a manager that actually has a style of play, and let him clear out the players that never fit..
it’s harsh, but you can’t expect to win the premier league while Harry maguire is tackling his own team mates and pogba is giving up possession every two minutes, I still fully believe it can be changed around quickly, but it will take someone ruthless and assured to do it, they need to be buying to fit a system, not just big names that have done well at other clubs.. I just hope to god that they’re laying the groundwork now.. too many scares from Ole now, and other clubs are snapping up quality managers
The mistake was giving him a long term contract when we had absolutely no reason to. He was a great interim manager, but we’ve seen what happens with these romantic appointments in the past, he managed to clear the toxicity that was festering for a while under mourinho, and that should be applauded, it just blows my mind that the board then felt the need to extend this longer than it ever needed to be, it’s almost like they’re thinking “hey.. remember when we managed to get rid of that awful mourinho, and replace him with someone everybody loves??… well we’re going to try and live in this bubble forever”
A competent board would be able to see our struggles on the pitch and they would t accept it. we don’t play anywhere close to modern attacking organised teams, in every game we look second best, no matter who the opposition is! The fact that they’ve let this go on so long is quite frankly criminal..
I only see one way out of it, and that is never letting it happen again.. bring in a manager that actually has a style of play, and let him clear out the players that never fit..
it’s harsh, but you can’t expect to win the premier league while Harry maguire is tackling his own team mates and pogba is giving up possession every two minutes, I still fully believe it can be changed around quickly, but it will take someone ruthless and assured to do it, they need to be buying to fit a system, not just big names that have done well at other clubs.. I just hope to god that they’re laying the groundwork now.. too many scares from Ole now, and other clubs are snapping up quality managers
We things differently. From my perspective Ole isn’t good enough.
Irrelevant. Fred for example cost Mourinho 50m pounds and was dreadful for him. Previous managers chose to buy the likes of Darmian and Dalot or use ex wingers there.
100 percent disagree.
First. Shaw was so bad under Mourinho at one point he was rightly hardly getting game time and was benching in favour of a former winger in Ashley Young. At one point even under Ole Brandon Williams was keeping him out the team
I don't see how a mere 10 games
suddenly erases all he did last season under Ole. Form he even carried to his country at the Euros.
Yes. Because it's not relevant to my point. Maguire's current start to the season does not erase his past 2 seasons were he clearly improved our defence. Whilst we also know once he snaps back to his true form and settles into a pair with Varane our defence will become top notch. Tottenham was a mere glimpse of that with one in awful form and the other half fit.
Again. Lack of relevance. We are assessing whether the coaching staff deserve ANY credit for the XI they have. Not whether it's an all conquering one.
I don't buy that at all. Sancho for example is a generational talent too. He is warming the bench.
Foden is one. At his age Guardiola hardly gave him the time of day at City. The staff definitely deserve credit for actually using him.
No. CR7 would probably still have them at Norwich.
I give them credit rather for being proven right CR7 would add something this squad definitely lacked. They could have easily passed over getting him and done the obvious thing and bought a DM instead. In my book that's a tick in their favour.
People constantly confuse me arguing Ole deserves credit for what he has done thus far with me thinking him good enough. The two things are not connected.
I simply take serious issue with the disrespect he gets and utter lack of credit for what he has done in the job past two seasons. He doesn't have to be "good enough" to at the very least be respected.
Neither LVG nor Mourinho were good enough neither. I still respect what they tried to do
Ole won't leave the job with the club worse off than he found it. So I simply can't understand all this vitriol and utter lack of respect thrown his direction. I find it rather all too childish and puerile.
Now that Bruce has gone pretty sure you’d have to leave the PL.
I think I said something like that but can't remember what it was in relation to. Maybe when I said I felt the club were just trying to buy him time by saying he has 3 games, but really they just wanted the heat to die down so they could continue with him?
I did also say something about us having some journos in our pocket these days as we seemed to give them more of an inside line and they were putting out positive PR to try to subdue the growing anger amongst supporters.
Pep’s comments today hurt. A lot. The truth is, even when we were “good” under Ole, we weren’t good enough. It was either playing shit against smaller sides and beating the better ones, or winning the easy games and playing to not lose against the big boys.
3 years is long enough. Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked out. He has built a decent team though, so the task for the next man up shouldn’t be as daunting.
3 years is long enough. Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked out. He has built a decent team though, so the task for the next man up shouldn’t be as daunting.
Of course we are not good enough. Otherwise we would have won the PL or CL.
You're painting everything as good...
Buying Bruno isn't an achievement neither does it apply to Ronaldo. Why do you ignore his other purchases? Sancho, VdB, Telles and the others. What a load of nonsense.
What about winning some silverware? Path for youth? Is that why Cavani and Ronaldo started upfront last week? Is that why we fielded our oldest XI against Spurs during his time as manager?
I think you need to take a rest. The only positive about the last three years is that we've acquired a great squad and even then Ole and his staff can't consistently win games.. yet you can't see this.
AWB has regressed from when he played for Palace. Maguire the same since Leicester. Fred is as good/bad as he ever was, depends how you look at it. Shaw is also an up and down player, currently on a downward path form wise.
Ill give you Greenwood has got better, but that would have happened with game time off anybody. Bruno was a good buy as was Ronaldo, but was he a real Ole buy or a board buy?
No other youth has been given a chance over the last 3 years.
We are as far off winning the league now and £400 mill+ spent, than we were when Ole came in.
That and the mountain of cash being spread around.
So....no progress this season ok by you? No CL next year acceptable?
Chief going to hate the fans more now.
532 vs City at Home with City dominating possession and not a single breakaway yet Conte would be "boring".
The Yanited Way.
The Yanited Way.