We are an awfully coached team

People keep pointing out the number of points Ole has earned from losing positions being a good thing. Surely part of this is down to us being behind more than the other top teams? I mean, sure, we came from behind whatever, 13 times, but I'm 99% sure City weren't behind in 10 matches last season, so them not 'coming from behind' is hardly a stick to beat them with.

I'd happily take a simple, controlled 2-0 victory thanks very much.
 
Was depressed watching Liverpool and City yesterday. Doesn't even look like the same sport.
 
It's been 3 years and some people are still asking for time. It's not going to make a difference lads, this is as good as it gets. This is Ole's ceiling, we are just wasting time.

The opportunity cost of not sacking him is huge, next year we'll have a weaker squad with, hopefully, a new manager. Then we'll need more time for it to click. What a waste of a season, can only wonder "what could've been".
 
I know it’s almost become a meme at this point to complain about our apparent lack of any cohesive way of playing. I think that mostly stems from the fact that it’s been repeated so often, not so much that’s it’s wrong, per se. If i was just to talk about Chelsea, Liverpool and City here because they are our rivals and the teams that we are, nominally, competing with for the title.

Perhaps Chelsea don’t factor into this as much as Liverpool and City because Tuchel has only been there for a short amount of time, but i think we can agree he’s implemented a certain style there. But anyway, the point is, when City or Liverpool (and Chelsea i guess) are playing a game, you have a certain understanding of how that game (and those teams) are going to play. Or certainly, how they want to play. Whether you can actually articulate how they play is irrelevant, really. You can throw out things like “high press” “counter pressing”,etc., but really, what matters is that when you mention those teams there’s an image that pops in your head of how they play. Now sometimes that doesn’t work. Sometimes they lose, sometimes they play poorly and look a mess. But the point is, if I say City are on TV tonight, you immediately know what sort of game it will be and how they will play (or at least attempt to play). Again, it may not work out for them. They may draw 0-0 at home against Southampton. But that’s not the point. It conjures up an image in your head of how they WANT to play

I don’t get that with United. We may win or we may lose (just like those teams) but i have absolutely no idea what they will TRY and play like. Basically, there is no picture that forms in my head, like the teams i mentioned above, when i see United are going to be on TV. It’s basically a crapshoot. I think that is what annoys fans the most. The results aren’t catastrophic. We finished second last season which is decent. We're only a point or two off the top now. Alright, our cup results aren’t great. But it’s that lack of knowing what the feck your going to get served up from one week to the next which is the most frustrating thing for me.
 
AjaxCunian said:
The "awfully" is so strong in the thread title every time I read it. @bond19821982 was really fed up.
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Look I don't want to be a messiah and say , hey I told you so. But I have done lot of research on tactics by various teams and I closely watch lot of managers. The thread was created after we lost at Istanbul last year but it wasn't a one off incident. I understand people were not so keen to write off Ole because of who he was and not who is he now. But I am happy that people are realizing slowly that we need to have a change.

We still don't have a style or pattern or plan on how to play. Even Norwich has a style and they are sticking to it. Even after 3 years, we are still nowhere and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

We have a fecking GOAT with us now supported by Pogba, Bruno, Sancho, Varane, Maguire. We are wasting their potential under Ole. The sooner we understand this, better for the team.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Potter would be a very risky choice, yes, but stranger things have happened in football. Arrigo Sacchi came straight from the runner up in Serie B to lead Milan to their first league title in 9 years in his first season, Nagelsman is 33 years old and already the head coach of Bayern Munich and they are doing just fine. Mourinho didnt have the best rep around here nowadays but his breakthrough at Porto was similarly meteoric.

You just have to take a leap of faith and bank on a manager on the up, if those at the absolute zenith of their career isnt available. Sure, it can end in a debacle like AvB with Chelsea, but at least not for want of trying, and not like Chelsea had trouble winning since.
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Remember 2014 when we hired Van Gaal and Spurs brought in Pochettino? If we had swapped managers do people think Pochettino would have failed to at least establish us in the top four? I think Potter is in the exact position that Pochettino was in 2014 and if Spurs/Arsenal get him they will easily take our CL spot away.

We are not far off in terms of playing resources, we have a great squad it just needs someone to come in and set up a system and we will be competitive. The biggest problem someone like Potter will face is egos with so many winners around but it could also turn into an advantage if they buy into his methods early on.
 
bond19821982 said:
Look I don't want to be a messiah and say , hey I told you so. But I have done lot of research on tactics by various teams and I closely watch lot of managers. The thread was created after we lost at Istanbul last year but it wasn't a one off incident. I understand people were not so keen to write off Ole because of who he was and not who is he now. But I am happy that people are realizing slowly that we need to have a change.

We still don't have a style or pattern or plan on how to play. Even Norwich has a style and they are sticking to it. Even after 3 years, we are still nowhere and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

We have a fecking GOAT with us now supported by Pogba, Bruno, Sancho, Varane, Maguire. We are wasting their potential under Ole. The sooner we understand this, better for the team.
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I fully share in your sentiment. I think Ole has done better than I expected even, in terms of finishing top 4 consecutively twice and what he has done in the transfer market. Although he has been the biggest or second biggest chequebook manager during his tenure.

For me even our golden run when he was interim was clearly a managerial bounce, and not his tactical brilliance. That luck or aura of positivity that caused change soon ran out and we bottled top 4 that very season. Throughout he has done better than Mourimho, Moyes, van Gaal in a lot of aspects but it's obvious ultimately he neither is good enough.
 
BusbyMalone said:
I know it’s almost become a meme at this point to complain about our apparent lack of any cohesive way of playing. I think that mostly stems from the fact that it’s been repeated so often, not so much that’s it’s wrong, per se. If i was just to talk about Chelsea, Liverpool and City here because they are our rivals and the teams that we are, nominally, competing with for the title.

Perhaps Chelsea don’t factor into this as much as Liverpool and City because Tuchel has only been there for a short amount of time, but i think we can agree he’s implemented a certain style there. But anyway, the point is, when City or Liverpool (and Chelsea i guess) are playing a game, you have a certain understanding of how that game (and those teams) are going to play. Or certainly, how they want to play. Whether you can actually articulate how they play is irrelevant, really. You can throw out things like “high press” “counter pressing”,etc., but really, what matters is that when you mention those teams there’s an image that pops in your head of how they play. Now sometimes that doesn’t work. Sometimes they lose, sometimes they play poorly and look a mess. But the point is, if I say City are on TV tonight, you immediately know what sort of game it will be and how they will play (or at least attempt to play). Again, it may not work out for them. They may draw 0-0 at home against Southampton. But that’s not the point. It conjures up an image in your head of how they WANT to play

I don’t get that with United. We may win or we may lose (just like those teams) but i have absolutely no idea what they will TRY and play like. Basically, there is no picture that forms in my head, like the teams i mentioned above, when i see United are going to be on TV. It’s basically a crapshoot. I think that is what annoys fans the most. The results aren’t catastrophic. We finished second last season which is decent. We're only a point or two off the top now. Alright, our cup results aren’t great. But it’s that lack of knowing what the feck your going to get served up from one week to the next which is the most frustrating thing for me.
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You're absolutely right. We have no defined style.
With Liverpool and City and to an extent, Chelsea...even when they are poor, there are elements of their game that remain constant. With us, I can't even say.
 
Ayoba said:
It's ok folks, once we sign Declan rice for 100m we'll be ok.
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Don’t forget that we need to tie Ole down to a 8 year contract (minimum) so that the players don’t go around worrying about his job security.
 
slyadams said:
Because he went on a run of 8 or 9 good games and was a breath of fresh air after the fog of Mourinho and a lot of fans were calling for it. The reason we are where we are as a club is because of decisions like this was, aimless groping in the dark by a leadership team who have no experience of running a football club. Ole was never a top manager and shouldn't have been a realistic option for us, he did the job of clearing the air brilliantly, but that was the extent of his abilities. We should have then thanked him profusely, shaken his hand and appointed a qualified manager. He'd have carried on being a fan hero (he always will be, this period hasn't impacted my opinion of the bloke, its not his fault he's not capable) and perhaps moved into a different role.
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He should never have been offered a contract when he first came in as caretaker. As soon as the contract was announced we went on a horrible run, players looked like they werent paying attention at that point. 3 years down the line and we are basically in the same position albeit with a better squad. I dont see much changing between now and the end of the season. We will most likely scrape top 4 but no chance we sustain a challenge this season.
 
Marwood said:
I fully understand your point I just don't think its right.

Ole can't read a game and change it? Yet we came from behind to win more than any other team last season. Something doesn't add up there unless all those comebacks are being put down to luck or chance.

Now if the argument is Ole hasn't got us passing the ball properly and this is further exposed against lesser teams that I'd agree with. Because that's what's actually happening on the pitch.
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This does sound good, I'll give you that, and I would also celebrate it, if the conditions were like this: the match starts, United plays well, the other team plays well too and it is stalemate or a lucky lead in a tight game. Then Ole makes a change, we are still good but the other teams dwindles or whatever and we can take the result. I definitely applaud that scenario and Ole had that on a few occasions.

But the majority of occasions, that are displayed in your stat are a different scenario: United was poor, made silly mistakes, wasn't up for it, slow and ponderous. When the team then is rushed and starts to play to its expected level, it isn't like the manager found a good formula applied it and we went up a notch to overcome the opponent - it is more that somehow we stopped being really shit so we hit the baseline after being well below it for quite some portion of the match.

In both scenarios, the manager does something so the performance gets better but only in one situation, he can be applauded for it on a regular basis. If his teams start badly into games, once more and more and more, this is a problem in itself. And it takes away any credibility of that stat with the most comebacks.
 
Marwood said:
I fully understand your point I just don't think its right.

Ole can't read a game and change it? Yet we came from behind to win more than any other team last season. Something doesn't add up there unless all those comebacks are being put down to luck or chance.

Now if the argument is Ole hasn't got us passing the ball properly and this is further exposed against lesser teams that I'd agree with. Because that's what's actually happening on the pitch.
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From where i sit i dont think it's tactical nous getting us those extra points though. It was mostly down to Bruno pulling something out of the bag last season. We are not changing systems or anything like that. We are just terrible at conceding early, one of the worst in the league (just 5 worse than us), even when we are a better team with better players. It's expected that we would go on to win many of those games with the players we have.
 
Watching the game yesterday made me sad for two different reasons.
City is way ahead of us tactically, say what you will about Pep and his spending, but the guys is astute as feck as a manager, the team is incredibly well drilled, they almost seems to have an extra player sometimes. Pep makes mistakes with lots of players, but he can really turn a team.
Liverpool is not so crafty, but their simplicity is magnificent. No nonsense football, direct, high tempo when needed, can go high and low, full of energy. Look at them in paper, and for what they play lots of names are lackluster. In theory, they should play as well as they do.

And now look at us. Can't string simple passes, players seem to have zero clue to where to make a run, infiltrate, triangle a play, how to commit a tactical foul, cover defensive ground... It's just so frustrating.
 
JoaquinJoaquin said:
Exactly.

Chelsea also started with Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi and Trevoh Chalobah on Saturday.
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Fire Ole. That is the answer to the how to solve our midfield problem thread. Anyone here who watch football long enough sure remember the pre Klopp Henderson. He is a laughing stock and a butt of jokes in the prem. If someone from 2021 time travel to back then and told all of us that Henderson will captain Liverpool for their first PL title we surely will lock him in the asylum.
 
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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This is called """"""""progress""""""""
 
For any Ole supporters, I am actually curious as to what you believe the solution to the current problem is? It seems like we all agree we have a decent squad, albeit one with one or two problems. However, I think its generally accepted its a squad with the most quality all over since SAF retired. So if not Ole, then what?
 
Danillaco said:
Watching the game yesterday made me sad for two different reasons.
City is way ahead of us tactically, say what you will about Pep and his spending, but the guys is astute as feck as a manager, the team is incredibly well drilled, they almost seems to have an extra player sometimes. Pep makes mistakes with lots of players, but he can really turn a team.
Liverpool is not so crafty, but their simplicity is magnificent. No nonsense football, direct, high tempo when needed, can go high and low, full of energy. Look at them in paper, and for what they play lots of names are lackluster. In theory, they should play as well as they do.

And now look at us. Can't string simple passes, players seem to have zero clue to where to make a run, infiltrate, triangle a play, how to commit a tactical foul, cover defensive ground... It's just so frustrating.
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It's a disjointed mess. Car crash football.
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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Add in the fact that Ole removed a lot of players that were considered not United players like Fellaini and Rojo.
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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Here here. Posted almost an identical post in January. It’s incredible actually to see nine months on that Mourinhos win percentage still hasn’t even been passed. I genuinely thought it would be by now.

But yeah just as it was back then in January the only metric we are better in from Mourinhos reign to Ole’s reign is goals scored and it’s marginal and then offset by a worse defence.
But your post does not reference those crucial footballing statistics such as “feel good factor” and “toxicity” levels. Ole smashes Mourinho in those areas.
 
Beachryan said:
People keep pointing out the number of points Ole has earned from losing positions being a good thing. Surely part of this is down to us being behind more than the other top teams? I mean, sure, we came from behind whatever, 13 times, but I'm 99% sure City weren't behind in 10 matches last season, so them not 'coming from behind' is hardly a stick to beat them with.

I'd happily take a simple, controlled 2-0 victory thanks very much.
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A bit of both for sure. That being said, I clearly remember a time before Ole when the team would get down and the they would show a collective "here we go again " attitude and shit themselves. Ole has done a phenomenal job through recruitment and coaching in getting players that are mentally tough and do not give in when things get difficult. Now that we have a team with a backbone again, we need some actual coaching and strategy to take us to the next level. I have my doubts if Ole is the guy for that.
 
It seems like Ole is a fantastic man manager. Maybe all we need is a Quieroz to really revolutionise the coaching and develop a noticeable playing style. Would it be worth mixing it up a bit in the first team coaching staff before giving Ole the boot, or am I just fooling myself?
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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I agree. If Mourinho had left at the end of his second season when we finished 2nd, there would not be this revisionism about his time in charge. The start of the third season was dire after his threw his toys out of the pram but it doesn't retroactively ruin the two trophies and solid second season.

I would 100% trust Mourinho to improve our defense over Ole even now, our goals against record in the league was excellent under Jose
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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I don’t want Mourinho back but god damn.
 
FatTails said:
Just a reminder that our overall points per match under Mourinho was 1.97 from 144 games. It’s 1.83 from 142 games since Ole became permanent manager (1.89 factoring in his time as interim as well, from 161 games).

Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Our average goals scored under Mourinho was 1.74, 0.9 conceded, for a GD of 0.84. Since Ole became permanent manager, his average is 1.92 scored and 1.14 conceded, for an average goal difference of 0.78.

Mourinho won two trophies as well. I am not saying Mourinho was the right fit but this revisionism that we are soooo much better now is nonsense. Things feel positive because we removed Mou and his constant negativity, but we get less points per game, and while we score a bit more, we concede more which more than negates the extra goals. This is after spending 100s of millions on top of what we had spent already. We still have no recognizable direction and are completely clueless when it matters (finals and semifinals)
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Man,that's depressing. Basically , result wise we haven't improved at all ?
 
Ole90+3 said:
It seems like Ole is a fantastic man manager. Maybe all we need is a Quieroz to really revolutionise the coaching and develop a noticeable playing style. Would it be worth mixing it up a bit in the first team coaching staff before giving Ole the boot, or am I just fooling myself?
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Im not sure thats conclusive.
 
bond19821982 said:
Man,that's depressing. Basically , result wise we haven't improved at all ?
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It's pretty evident, no? We havent even reached the 80 pts mark in the league like we did under Mourinho. In his 2 full seasons here, Mourinho won a League Cup, Europa League, get to a FAC final, and 1/16 CL, which wasnt exactly great, but you compare it with failing to get out of CL group, trounced out of all cups and a respective 66/74 pts over two full league season then theres no comparison really.

The 'he had to pick up such a mess' is also massively overblown. Conte got a similar mess at Chelsea and went and won the league in his first season, somehow our manager is the only one who can buy Maguire, AWB, Sancho, Dan James, Bruno, Varane, Ronaldo for a combined 400m and achieve consecutive top 4th finishes like that is the be all and end all.
 
11101 said:
From where i sit i dont think it's tactical nous getting us those extra points though. It was mostly down to Bruno pulling something out of the bag last season. We are not changing systems or anything like that. We are just terrible at conceding early, one of the worst in the league (just 5 worse than us), even when we are a better team with better players. It's expected that we would go on to win many of those games with the players we have.
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I think you've reached that stage I was at with Mourinho. Where its painful to give the manager any credit for anything.

slyadams said:
For any Ole supporters, I am actually curious as to what you believe the solution to the current problem is? It seems like we all agree we have a decent squad, albeit one with one or two problems. However, I think its generally accepted its a squad with the most quality all over since SAF retired. So if not Ole, then what?
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The passing ability of this quad is massively overrated and barely mentioned in the myriad of complaints you see on here.

So the solution to our biggest problem is pretty simple. Get more players who can look after the ball and that's on Ole. He should have been sorting this a good while ago.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I mean, that’s exactly where some fans are. At least before it was ”we just need a Varane”, or ”if we only signed Sancho”. Now the one player that will change everything is Declan fecking Rice :lol:
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Forget about Declan Rice We can sign Mathew Noodles and nothing will change.
 
It was right to sack Mourinho but this idea that going from a manager that won two trophies in two and a half seasons including one second place finish to a manager who also has one second place finish but has won the square root of feck all represents some kind of major progress we should be loathed to abandon never made sense to me
 
Deery said:
Funny because we beat City last season.
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Once. In a league game at the end of the season when the league was already over. We also lost to them in a semi-final in a game that mattered. Glory Glory Man United. MY MANAGER.
 
stw2022 said:
It was right to sack Mourinho but this idea that going from a manager that won two trophies in two and a half seasons including one second place finish to a manager who also has one second place finish but has won the square root of feck all represents some kind of major progress we should be loathed to abandon never made sense to me
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Thing is if Ole had taken United to 3 4th place finishes this place would be happy with a 2nd place.
 
MichaelRed said:
Once. In a league game at the end of the season when the league was already over. We also lost to them in a semi-final in a game that mattered. Glory Glory Man United. MY MANAGER.
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So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?
 
Deery said:
So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?
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SAF said the league is a marathon and not a sprint. So its pointless if we do not win the league even if we beat them in a one off. I would rather lose to them and win the league than win a one off and not win the League.
Also Klopp has earned the right to waffle on as he has won the CL and the PL.
 
Deery said:
So we do know how to beat them then or do you need Klopp to waffle on for 5 minutes about how he packed the midfield to understand that?
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If we do know how to beat them then wtf were we doing in the games that mattered?
 
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