I don't see how you can announce victory on our tactics when they created so many chances while we barely had any. If we dealt with counter attack well, De Gea should have no work to do; Instead, he had to give Man-of-the-match performance to keep us alive.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
I don't see how you can announce victory on our tactics when they created so many chances while we barely had any. If we dealt with counter attack well, De Gea should have no work to do; Instead, he had to give Man-of-the-match performance to keep us alive.
He brought in a set piece coach and it seemed to bring fruits. If he wants to keep his job, he has to bring in a passing coach, a defensive pressing coach and a attacking coach to name a few.
I've been on the fence about this for a while because i dont have a fecking clue about football coaching, but its clear for everyone to see something not right
Wasnt it said on here that Ole does very little of the actual coaching? Not trying to absolve him here, because hes in charge, but we cant keep playing like this and unless hes blind he has to see that as well.
I've been on the fence about this for a while because i dont have a fecking clue about football coaching, but its clear for everyone to see something not right
Wasnt it said on here that Ole does very little of the actual coaching? Not trying to absolve him here, because hes in charge, but we cant keep playing like this and unless hes blind he has to see that as well.
The posts have hit a new low in here now!
What part of the celebrations at the end do you think showed they downed tools?
After last night I don’t think anyone can seriously claim that Ole’s coaching style sets us up for success. Control in this kind of game never seems to happen. An elite team would start the game focussed on bossing the middle of the park and dominating play. We go out and look like all we care about is getting it up top. But midfield is the platform for both attack and defence, and the way we ignore it has ramifications at both ends. As Jamie Jackson put it in the Guardian, “dazed in defence and dizzy in attack, lacking composure where it matters.” If you're not solid in the middle it's tough to sustain pressure in the attack.
We’re not improving either. These are the same flaws we had two years ago, just with better players. If anything, the problem is more acute. When we had the likes of Mata, Pereira or Lingard in the team, we actually had more bodies in midfield areas because of how they play. As we’ve upgraded (thankfully) to other players, we have fewer players who even want to play in the middle. In recent weeks we’ve resembled a 4-2-4. Yesterday we sometimes resembled a 4-1-5. Bruno, I love him, but someone has to have a word with him. We need him in the middle of the park. We know he wants to win by scoring and assisting, but he'll get more chances to do that if we have control.
Watching Villarreal was particularly depressing. They’re not even that good, but the coaching was evident. A player receives the ball and you can see the two or three players closest to him respond automatically to move into a position to receive the next ball. The next guy gets the ball and the players around him move again into set positions to receive another pass and keep it moving. The ball moves into a wide attacking area and the guy knows where his colleagues are moving towards. This is not high brow stuff, the preserve of world-class footballers only. Almost none of their team are getting in ours. This is something any team can achieve. In our case, either Ole isn't even trying, or he's trying but failing. Neither of those makes sense to me, but you can see with your own eyes what the results are.
My only comfort is that, in the coming difficult run, we'll be more often forced to play on the counter anyway due to the quality of the teams, which is where our team is at their best. In that situation, you react to what the opposition does and look for a quick counter. Reacting is our forte. But in the long run, this lack of control is going to cost us. We need to put it right.
We’re not improving either. These are the same flaws we had two years ago, just with better players. If anything, the problem is more acute. When we had the likes of Mata, Pereira or Lingard in the team, we actually had more bodies in midfield areas because of how they play. As we’ve upgraded (thankfully) to other players, we have fewer players who even want to play in the middle. In recent weeks we’ve resembled a 4-2-4. Yesterday we sometimes resembled a 4-1-5. Bruno, I love him, but someone has to have a word with him. We need him in the middle of the park. We know he wants to win by scoring and assisting, but he'll get more chances to do that if we have control.
Watching Villarreal was particularly depressing. They’re not even that good, but the coaching was evident. A player receives the ball and you can see the two or three players closest to him respond automatically to move into a position to receive the next ball. The next guy gets the ball and the players around him move again into set positions to receive another pass and keep it moving. The ball moves into a wide attacking area and the guy knows where his colleagues are moving towards. This is not high brow stuff, the preserve of world-class footballers only. Almost none of their team are getting in ours. This is something any team can achieve. In our case, either Ole isn't even trying, or he's trying but failing. Neither of those makes sense to me, but you can see with your own eyes what the results are.
My only comfort is that, in the coming difficult run, we'll be more often forced to play on the counter anyway due to the quality of the teams, which is where our team is at their best. In that situation, you react to what the opposition does and look for a quick counter. Reacting is our forte. But in the long run, this lack of control is going to cost us. We need to put it right.
Been like this much of his tenure. Play like crap, just about get over the line, everyone has to pretend there’s no issue.
Better than disastrous is good enough because…United way, or something.
Better than disastrous is good enough because…United way, or something.
The effort and commitment to get a winner going into the final 95th minute and then the celebrations clearly showed the players have downed tools. Funny isn’t it.
The posts have hit a new low in here now!
What part of the celebrations at the end do you think showed they downed tools?
Exactly! A 4-2-4 is what we have been playing, and yesterday it was often 4-0-6 because McT didn't know how to play the no.6 and Bruno, as usual, thinks he is the second striker. Ole said McT found himself on his own. Well, who put him there? Why didn't he start Matic against a counter-attacking team who don't press so much? There is no other big club in the world that would put up with such naivety from its coaching staff.
Also:
That's Ole, the Manchester United manager joking about not knowing what his players are doing on the training pitch. Sounds about right.
Reading at some posts, livescore needs to removed because there is no way some watched the game, there are few places where you can check the replay, do that and come back.
Absolutely agree. At times the game yesterday felt like 2010 Barca playing Stoke or something. And we would not be Barca in that comparison.
Our formation and tactics are all over the place. What the hell was the idea behind the midfield? Pogba played as additional attacker most of the time, McTominay hided between the Villareal strikers and was nowhere near what could be called a 6. Villareal played through our lines with ease.
Also in the final third there seems to be a lot of confusion what to do in certain situations.
That's the good thing about most of the posts in this thread... no hyperbole and plenty of balance.
I don't mind about Ole being the manager but the coaching staff have to do a lot better.
If they need(and they are...) just add another coach(or even 2) to the stuff.
To see united play and not dominant enough is very hard to watch. Don't get me wrong - Its not "LVG or Jose Hard" because that was unbearable but its hard enough...
On the attack its like : "Give the ball to Bruno and Ronaldo, and pray", and on the other end our overall defense shape is even worse
If they need(and they are...) just add another coach(or even 2) to the stuff.
To see united play and not dominant enough is very hard to watch. Don't get me wrong - Its not "LVG or Jose Hard" because that was unbearable but its hard enough...
On the attack its like : "Give the ball to Bruno and Ronaldo, and pray", and on the other end our overall defense shape is even worse
Of all the games this season, the Villarreal one isn't the one I'm most concerned about. Strange.
We are horrible to watch though, I'll give you that. McTominay, number 6 role, 51 touches and 43 passes. Whilst a lot of the team seem a bit confused about the approach to take, having a CDM scared to take the ball and recycle it is a big problem if you're going to do with a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1.
We all know the gaping hole in this team is a good, solid deep lying playmaker as well as clear issues in how the team is prepared ahead of games, as this pattern of bad performances and an inability to dictate territory and the pace of the game is no coincidence.
We are horrible to watch though, I'll give you that. McTominay, number 6 role, 51 touches and 43 passes. Whilst a lot of the team seem a bit confused about the approach to take, having a CDM scared to take the ball and recycle it is a big problem if you're going to do with a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1.
We all know the gaping hole in this team is a good, solid deep lying playmaker as well as clear issues in how the team is prepared ahead of games, as this pattern of bad performances and an inability to dictate territory and the pace of the game is no coincidence.
That was a pathetic showing last night. Two goals aside we were fecking abysmal. No idea what we’re trying to do - a bit like Mourinho football this with a caveat that when we’re allowed to counter; we do look good. Otherwise it’s just hapless.
People saying we are badly coached, I don't even think these players are coached.
We were attempting to press, Bruno was telling Sancho / Greenwood to push higher, as soon as they pushed the ball at the CB, they played it to the RB/LB who was in acres of space. If you are going to press, your full backs need to press the full backs. That didn't happen.
When we covered their wingers /full backs they played a simple ball into Parejo or Capoue and then they were running at our defence.
Bruno and Pogba are not good enough defensively. Bruno gets beat too easily, Pogba the same, they are not good at cutting out passing lanes.
We were attempting to press, Bruno was telling Sancho / Greenwood to push higher, as soon as they pushed the ball at the CB, they played it to the RB/LB who was in acres of space. If you are going to press, your full backs need to press the full backs. That didn't happen.
When we covered their wingers /full backs they played a simple ball into Parejo or Capoue and then they were running at our defence.
Bruno and Pogba are not good enough defensively. Bruno gets beat too easily, Pogba the same, they are not good at cutting out passing lanes.
Yesterday was a different formation that in part allowed us to get Pogba and Bruno on the pitch without the former playing on the wing or in a defensive role. People on here have been crying out for it.
I am not sure if it was down to Villareal being good or our team being unused to that formation but we struggled. I watched McTominey a lot in the game and he had difficulty finding space to receive the ball. We missed AwB and Shaw too.
We played much better when we brought Matic on and reverted to our more usual midfield set up.
I am not sure if it was down to Villareal being good or our team being unused to that formation but we struggled. I watched McTominey a lot in the game and he had difficulty finding space to receive the ball. We missed AwB and Shaw too.
We played much better when we brought Matic on and reverted to our more usual midfield set up.
The United DNA! Gary knows what the DNA is and how United plays!
I've always been, and remain, resolutely Ole in. But I think it's plain that we are not functioning the way we should at the moment, and yesterday was more an improbable escape than cause to feel reassured. You could complain that we're not controlling the midfield, and we aren't. That said, I don't really think we have the right kind of players to do that, and that we're going to have to succeed without it. The key problem for me is that our attack isn't really functioning - we're too direct, too impatient, too lacking in coherence. Too many speculative balls into the box or behind the opposition line, too many isolated initiatives. And too little cover in defensive transitions too, when the opponent regains the ball around their own box, we're wide open. Yesterday I thought the press looked messy too - we've been playing a middle block and doing that often pretty well, but yesterday we were passive in our own half, and wildly erratic in the amount and quality of our forward pressing.
I can't pretend to know exactly what is wrong or how it should be fixed, but clearly there's something. We've just not gelled, and are looking alarmingly disjointed and under-effective. Maybe it just needs time. Maybe it's the systemic, emotional and mental impact of adjusting to Ronaldo. Maybe it's the tactics, or the formation. To me it looks like they need to slow down a bit, be a little more patient. It also looks like Matic is suddenly our best option in central midfield. Fred is a bad fit in this situation exactly because his game is so high-intensity. And McTominay, he just doesn't look up to the kind of responsibility being a more or less lone pivot implies. Just look at his movement in the build-up phase, how often he is not in a position to receive the ball.
I can't pretend to know exactly what is wrong or how it should be fixed, but clearly there's something. We've just not gelled, and are looking alarmingly disjointed and under-effective. Maybe it just needs time. Maybe it's the systemic, emotional and mental impact of adjusting to Ronaldo. Maybe it's the tactics, or the formation. To me it looks like they need to slow down a bit, be a little more patient. It also looks like Matic is suddenly our best option in central midfield. Fred is a bad fit in this situation exactly because his game is so high-intensity. And McTominay, he just doesn't look up to the kind of responsibility being a more or less lone pivot implies. Just look at his movement in the build-up phase, how often he is not in a position to receive the ball.
Villarreal looked comfortably the better team for 60mins yesterday and the only surprise was they didn’t score more.
Whoever watched yesterday’s game and still thinks that if you swap McTominay for Rice suddenly all problems are resolved and we’ll start playing proper football… then I have a unicorn to sell you.
Whoever watched yesterday’s game and still thinks that if you swap McTominay for Rice suddenly all problems are resolved and we’ll start playing proper football… then I have a unicorn to sell you.
To pretend that its always been like this during Ole's tenure is about as disingenuous as saying this is just a blip. We played far better than this, with better control at the back and coherence in attack while our main failing was consistency and random downturns in form.
If nothing else, the squad under Ole has always been up for a fight and wouldn't be late to tackles or challenges, or be lethargic in pressing with the wingers not tracking back enough. This season feels a lot more disjointed, a lot more players look fatigued, out of form or plain not ready for the onslaught of fixtures. Its being exacerbated by Ole not rotating the squad enough and riding Bruno, Greenwood, Ronaldo, Maguire, AWB and Shaw for their entire worth. Ferguson, after a major international tournament wouldn't even play his senior players for close to 4 weeks into the season.
If nothing else, the squad under Ole has always been up for a fight and wouldn't be late to tackles or challenges, or be lethargic in pressing with the wingers not tracking back enough. This season feels a lot more disjointed, a lot more players look fatigued, out of form or plain not ready for the onslaught of fixtures. Its being exacerbated by Ole not rotating the squad enough and riding Bruno, Greenwood, Ronaldo, Maguire, AWB and Shaw for their entire worth. Ferguson, after a major international tournament wouldn't even play his senior players for close to 4 weeks into the season.
Some people dont like to face reality or say as long as it is a win, I dont care.
It was a shitty performance and if Villareal could finish their chances, we could have lost 2-0 or 3-0
Easily. Cannot believe anyone watched that game and thought "That's impressive from us. I'd like to see more of such performances at OT".
Some will support Ole come what may, and that's fine, but at least assess the performance objectively instead of blindly saying we were good.
Shock news, players practice stuff on the training ground between themselves. This is groundbreaking stuff, and we've got video evidence to prove it.
In our current starting 11, 7 out of 10 outfield players are ones who Ole bought or promoted from within the club. Yet his supporters want more time and more players (after 3 years) to see if we can have a pattern of breaking down low block, better pressing, and handling high press ourselves.
Will a new manager be given this kind of leeway if he wasn't a former player?
This thread is full of objectivity.
This is the only way Ole is going to succeed at this club, otherwise his luck will run out eventually. Only so long you can get away with relying on individual brilliance.
This.
Ole has brought calmness and progression to the club. But he clearly also a better man-manager than a coach. He needs to get better or at least one old head who can implement the tactics better. The current old head, Phelen really is more on the management side of things by all accounts.
Well the performance can be discussed objectively. That's exactly what I said.
Incredible reading in here from last night
Just can't understand why some many folk still absolutely sizzling about it all. We were great, but the burn is real
Just can't understand why some many folk still absolutely sizzling about it all. We were great, but the burn is real
We've had performances like this plenty of times throughout Ole's tenure.
Just go back to last season away to Brighton. Bruno scored a last minute pen to win, but a lot of us were super concerned with the performance. Brighton should have scored 5-6 goals. The following game was vs Spurs and we conceded 6 at OT.
This isn't intended as a slight towards you, but I've read the fitness excuse every single season. It is getting tiring. We are not the only team in the world dealing with international breaks and tournaments.
Or we just get in a manager that does all of that?
I mean now we need to get him better coaches in every possible facet in order for Ole to be a great manager?
It's honestly nonsensical. The amount of placating towards him is something I've never seen before.
I know you're not trying to absolve him, but how much more does he need? Maybe it's just obvious by now that he's not a top level manager.
He is who he is. A solid-good manager capable of securing top 4 football whilst playing fairly average football without the tactical nous to implement a pressing game nor a controlled possession game nor the ability to content for trophies.
Managers don't suddenly become amazing after 10 years of coaching. It's rather evident right away. Maybe he needed a season to get to grips with the Premier League managing a big club, but he's been here 3 years now. This is what a Ole team will always look like. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
We have to get rid off the stupid idea that persists in our fanbase that Ole hiring a coach can solve the problem. Just because SAF did it in his later part of his career doesn't mean it's going to work the same for the average Joe and Ole is average Joe compared to SAF. If the coach is much smarter and capable of making us play well than Ole, why is he going to work under Ole in the first place. What respect will Ole command with the squad when they get to know that second in command is much better than Ole.
Yes a modern manager is not going to handle every department of coaching but the idea should come from the manager not from the coach. For example it's obvious that Guardiola cannot coach Ederson but Guardiola knows he needs a sweeper keeper who isn't afraid to come out of the box and will hire a coach who knows how to improve that part of Ederson's game. SAF managed to make it work in the later parts of his career because of his sheer pedigree and the respect he commands.
Yes a modern manager is not going to handle every department of coaching but the idea should come from the manager not from the coach. For example it's obvious that Guardiola cannot coach Ederson but Guardiola knows he needs a sweeper keeper who isn't afraid to come out of the box and will hire a coach who knows how to improve that part of Ederson's game. SAF managed to make it work in the later parts of his career because of his sheer pedigree and the respect he commands.
Can we give some positioning structure to the forward players? It's like everyone can just run whereever they want at any point in time. The left winger is on the right wing; the centre forward is deep in midfield; the defensive midfielder is playing left wing.
I mean, what the actual feck?
I like interchangeable positions sometimes but this is just a mess.
I mean, what the actual feck?
I like interchangeable positions sometimes but this is just a mess.
I am beginning to think that people on here think SAF was just a cheerleader and had his coaches do everything. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to SAF.
Every single assistant that worked under SAF has utterly failed when they've moved on elsewhere. It's no coincidence.
Only with a squad capable of competing for the title.
Why can't our fanbase just accept that SAF is one of a kind and move on? Fanbase across the world are okay with getting rid off failing managers.
We definitely need more structure.
We opt for Hollywood passes way too often. We also often have 4-5 players lined up in the same horizontal line making similar runs. It's tumescent stuff at times.
I wish we would take more chances with getting the ball into the box. We seem to work the ball up the pitch, get to their penalty box, then pass it from side to side in an arc around their box, without ever trying a shot or a ball into a dangerous area.
It felt a waste last season when Cavani was tirelessly making runs but no ball was incoming...and is even more so so far this season, given we have the greatest goalscorer ever to be on the end of them.
I just don't get why we don't try an early cross more often. Right after kick off last night, after Ronaldo spread the ball to Greenwood, there was the chance of a first time cross but instead Greenwood hesitated, slowed, stopped, turned around, and then passed it backward and we settled into our toothless, pointless passing from side to side. In that instance, when Ronaldo was making his run into the box, and their defenders were sprinting back towards their own goal, then surely a whipped in ball is a more dangerous option than stopping and starting again?
It felt a waste last season when Cavani was tirelessly making runs but no ball was incoming...and is even more so so far this season, given we have the greatest goalscorer ever to be on the end of them.
I just don't get why we don't try an early cross more often. Right after kick off last night, after Ronaldo spread the ball to Greenwood, there was the chance of a first time cross but instead Greenwood hesitated, slowed, stopped, turned around, and then passed it backward and we settled into our toothless, pointless passing from side to side. In that instance, when Ronaldo was making his run into the box, and their defenders were sprinting back towards their own goal, then surely a whipped in ball is a more dangerous option than stopping and starting again?
And who would that be?
You know as well as me that every manager past and present have relied on their backroom staff to be succesfull. Ole has shown his strenghts lie in man mangament and i would argue squad building, but the actual coaching is lacking. I was half joking about us needing a coach for every facet of the game, but when Rui Faria was replaced by Carrick and McKenna under Jose there was a pretty noticable drop in our performances
All im saying really is that if Ole wants to keep his job he needs new coaches to cover for his weaknesses
I'm guessing that's not directed at me, because I have moved on.
There will never be another SAF. This club and the fans should stop pinning for a replica. It's la la land thinking.
Also, the times in the second half when we were passing the ball quickly we were so much better. When things slow down, our players hesitate and seem to only look for the simplest / nearest pass. And our passing is not actually that good – it doesn't take many before one pass is slightly off target, so the receiving player has to stretch...which affects the next pass, and the one after that is when we lose it.
Exactly. Mourinho lost to Sevilla, Mourinho fanboys then were like "well SAF lost sometimes too". Now Ole hasn't won anything for 4 years, idiots now "SAF didn't win for 3 years too". Like you said it's utterly disrespectful to SAF that comparisons like these get made constantly.