We are an awfully coached team

It was mostly a Matic-Herrera-Pogba midfield, which is the closest thing to a properly balanced midfield that we've used for years (probably since Fergie). One midfielder who sits back a fair bit and is decent at playing the ball around and protecting the defence. One midfield harrier, hunting and winning the ball and making it difficult for the opposition. One creative attacking midfielder, with the freedom to go mostly where he wants so he can help the midfield while still being a significant attacking threat himself. It wasn't perfect (Matic would need to be upgraded with a superior playmaker), but it was the closest we've had. Actually there was a brief Carrick-Herrera-Pogba combo in Mourinho's first season that also worked well, but Mourinho quickly ran an aging Carrick into the ground.

There's nothing wrong with 4231. We just don't have the midfielders capable of playing either 4231 or 433 very well. In Bruno and Pogba we have two players who can play the most attacking role in those formations. But the other two roles? None of Scott, Matic or Pogba are suitable in any kind of combination. All of them basically abandon half the duties. Scott basically hides when we have the ball and doesn't actually do that much defending. Matic spends half the match in the defence and only has the legs to play 45 minutes once a week. Pogba has good passing ability but that's about it. In theory Fred could play the harrier role (similar to Herrera did during that run after Ole's appointment, or that Kante does for Chelsea), but he would need the right partner next to him and who knows if he'd end up being good enough in a properly functioning midfield. The fact that he ends up trying to be our main deeper playmaker at the moment really says everything about how bad our current midfield balance is.
I think, the bolded parts are interesting points. On the first, I agree, the thing isn't just to find good players for each role, it is needed to define roles to make sure, you stay balanced. Depending on certain situations and needs, you still can adapt to individual games or in-game even but balance is the thing to strive for.

The second part I disagree though. I think, that just slams the door without really looking into it. There is a simple reason why we not even think about having Fred, McTominay AND DVB in the middle of the park for some games - and this reason is nobody wants to miss out on some of the talent in attack.
Last year we afforded ourselves to have Pogba, Martial, Rashford (2021 edition) and Greenwood attack without compensating for the lack of workrate this will end up in. When Cavani came in for Martial, we were so happy because it was so good to our play. Now we added Ronaldo and Sancho and all people can think of is a shiny new DM to finally be able to play both Bruno and Pogba in Midfield and still being able to choose three attackers. It is an understandable thought, no question about it, but it will always be unbalanced and therefor easy to exploit. No DM in the world can win a midfield battle on their own, that particular issue will persist no matter who we field in midfield as long as we are not making sure, the rest of the team supports the midfield as it is the most important area on the pitch these days. Exhibit A: yesterdays match where we were denied to have any sort of service into the attack.
 
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My fear for Sancho is seeing how he’s made no effort to integrate VDB into the team. If he doesn’t know how to use you he just…won’t. We never tried to accommodate VDB. We didn’t try and work Sancho into a system nor did we try and develop a system around him. He named him in the team, it didn’t work out and now he’s on the bench.

I worry Sancho will go the same way. We’ll never accommodate him. He’ll just be plonked in middle of a team with no identity or style and if it doesn’t work he’s out and we need to get those ‘parasite owners’ to buy another midfielder.

VDB’s failure is entirely down to mismanagement. He hasn’t been given fair crack and failed. He wasn’t given the chance. So far it has been same with Sancho and I can’t see that changing
 
He’s still playing Mourinhos midfield, really. Fred, Matić, Pogba and to a certain degree McTominay. His only first choice addition is Bruno. Problem area.

Ole has spent almost 100 milion on the midfield including DVDB. The midfield has been addressed, a 6 is the only position that hasn't been catered to.
 
Hes built a fantastic squad and should get plaudits for it, but he, for some reason, hasn't improved midfield and deserves criticism for that as well.

It falls on him
Do we actually know how much say Ole has in transfers? If he actually is just part of a transfer 'committee' then his overall performance as manager comes even more into focus. Love the guy, but he's not up to it. Never was and never should have been given the job.
 
Do we actually know how much say Ole has in transfers? If he actually is just part of a transfer 'committee' then his overall performance as manager comes even more into focus. Love the guy, but he's not up to it. Never was and never should have been given the job.
Ole supporters will claim he has a huge role in it, but once the VDB transfer is mentioned, they'll say the board forced it on him.
 
There’s lots of takes on why we struggle with this. My take is that we’ve always struggled to have a controlled sense of possession throughout Ole’s tenure. That manifests itself as not being able to play out from the back or through a high press, not being able to dominate good passing teams in midfield and not being able to work the opposition when they try and play a low block. It all stems from the limited way we work and move the ball around the pitch, both individually and tactically.

When top teams play against a solid defence they don’t just hold on to the ball waiting for a gap. They pull and stretch the opposition in specific ways to make gaps open up and then work them. Even against Newcastle where we played pretty well, we struggled to make clear chances in the first half because our possession was aimless and just seemed to be about letting our players taking turns to try something, rather than executing a plan designed to penetrate a packed back line.

But hasn't Solskjaer come out in interviews saying he's trying to bring back Man Utds philosophy?

Under Ferguson you guys were never really a possession based team but one that counter attacked well, played good combinations in the final third and relied on individual brilliance on occassion. I honestly believe, although Ole clearly has limitations, this is the system he's trying to implement. The issue is some of the players on the team don't have the leadership nor discipline of a Keane or Neville; perhaps a few players do not properly respect Ole.
 
But hasn't Solskjaer come out in interviews saying he's trying to bring back Man Utds philosophy?

Under Ferguson you guys were never really a possession based team but one that counter attacked well, played good combinations in the final third and relied on individual brilliance on occassion. I honestly believe, although Ole clearly has limitations, this is the system he's trying to implement. The issue is some of the players on the team don't have the leadership nor discipline of a Keane or Neville; perhaps a few players do not properly respect Ole.

Agreed, I think he is doing just that. But Ole isnt Fergie. Just because Ole is trying to do it that way doesn't mean that he'll have the same success, the same way that Hassenhutel probably won't ever emulate Klopp.
 
Ole supporters will claim he has a huge role in it, but once the VDB transfer is mentioned, they'll say the board forced it on him.
Yeah, I mean I suppose that’s possible right. My issue is picking and choosing what we give him credit for, and I suppose in fairness the opposite is true. If I give him the benefit of the doubt about the transfers then I have to say “what is he doing with them”, and the answer is quite simply nothing.
 
Ole supporters will claim he has a huge role in it, but once the VDB transfer is mentioned, they'll say the board forced it on him.

That kind of stuff does absolutely nothing for a balanced debate. It's really annoying and agenda driven.
 
Do we actually know how much say Ole has in transfers? If he actually is just part of a transfer 'committee' then his overall performance as manager comes even more into focus. Love the guy, but he's not up to it. Never was and never should have been given the job.
It's more addressed at the people that praise him for the squad he's built yet absolve him when it comes to our midfield woes.

Can't have it both ways
 
That kind of stuff does absolutely nothing for a balanced debate. It's really annoying and agenda driven.
From my point of view, Ole has continuously insisted in the media that he plays a big part in the recruitment and has a veto right, so he deserves the praise and blame for any transfer dealings.
 
From my point of view, Ole has continuously insisted in the media that he plays a big part in the recruitment and has a veto right, so he deserves the praise and blame for any transfer dealings.

Spot on. You have to take the good with the bad, and being selective to suit an agenda is ridiculous.
 
Don’t think he has any clue what to do besides try to emulate the past but has no idea how. Even when we would win playing like shit he seemed to seem overly proud of that, as if it represented the ‘United way’. It’s why we’ve never seen an attempt to impose any kind of system because there’s a belief that simply being United will be enough.

It’s almost as if how we play is irrelevant, it’s all about the comebacks and the last minute goals.
 
This is where difference of opinion comes in, obviously. If he were to improve on last year it would almost surely mean trophies. If he’s improved 3 years in a row, why not trust a 4th?

I know the kind of reasons you’ll give as to why he should be done, so let’s just leave it at that.
Not sure how this is the case.

Just looking at the league, we got 74 points last season with a xPTS of ~66, so results were far better than the performances and we were still miles off winning the league title. If we increase our points total and performance level such that our points total reflects the quality of the performances, then we have improved. However we were so far off last season that slight or decent improvement on last season won't be enough, 80 points won't win you the league this season for example. With the signings of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo, anything but an improvement in the points total and the performance metrics would be a complete disaster. The issue is Liverpool/Chelsea may improve more than we do in which case we could potentially go from 2nd to 3rd/4th despite being a better team than lasts season. From what I've seen so far, I don't see us winning the league as the performance levels just aren't high enough - we've been outplayed by Southampton, Wolves and Villa already.

On the Champions league, we're sweating getting out the group stages again. After seeing us bottle the group last season and then our disastrous start against Young Boys, I'm not sure how we could be giving ourselves a high chance of winning the trophy.

We're already out the League cup. That leaves the FA cup as our most likely chance at a trophy. Again a cup competition a bit of a lottery depending on luck of the draw etc.

If we win the Europa because we failed to get out the CL group stage that's an absolute disaster and frankly we'd be celebrating failure if we saw it as an achievement.
 
More of this please. The more Utd fanbase believe in the idea that Ole's coaching is a standard for a top 4 club, the easier it is for us Arsenal to get back into top 4.
Top 4 isn’t an issue for us. Don’t worry you won’t be playing in Europe for a while.
 
This is where difference of opinion comes in, obviously. If he were to improve on last year it would almost surely mean trophies. If he’s improved 3 years in a row, why not trust a 4th?

I know the kind of reasons you’ll give as to why he should be done, so let’s just leave it at that.
Well if we are 2nd with 5 points more, and still far off a title challenge, no trophies we have "improved" as well.
 
Not sure how this is the case.

Just looking at the league, we got 74 points last season with a xPTS of ~66, so results were far better than the performances and we were still miles off winning the league title. If we increase our points total and performance level such that our points total reflects the quality of the performances, then we have improved. However we were so far off last season that slight or decent improvement on last season won't be enough, 80 points won't win you the league this season for example. With the signings of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo, anything but an improvement in the points total and the performance metrics would be a complete disaster. The issue is Liverpool/Chelsea may improve more than we do in which case we could potentially go from 2nd to 3rd/4th despite being a better team than lasts season. From what I've seen so far, I don't see us winning the league as the performance levels just aren't high enough - we've been outplayed by Southampton, Wolves and Villa already.

On the Champions league, we're sweating getting out the group stages again. After seeing us bottle the group last season and then our disastrous start against Young Boys, I'm not sure how we could be giving ourselves a high chance of winning the trophy.

We're already out the League cup. That leaves the FA cup as our most likely chance at a trophy. Again a cup competition a bit of a lottery depending on luck of the draw etc.

If we win the Europa because we failed to get out the CL group stage that's an absolute disaster and frankly we'd be celebrating failure if we saw it as an achievement.

That's ridiculous. You'd celebrate any trophy after 5 seasons without one and being regulars in the Europa League. It's not 2009 anymore.
 
Not sure how this is the case.

Just looking at the league, we got 74 points last season with a xPTS of ~66, so results were far better than the performances and we were still miles off winning the league title. If we increase our points total and performance level such that our points total reflects the quality of the performances, then we have improved. However we were so far off last season that slight or decent improvement on last season won't be enough, 80 points won't win you the league this season for example. With the signings of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo, anything but an improvement in the points total and the performance metrics would be a complete disaster. The issue is Liverpool/Chelsea may improve more than we do in which case we could potentially go from 2nd to 3rd/4th despite being a better team than lasts season. From what I've seen so far, I don't see us winning the league as the performance levels just aren't high enough - we've been outplayed by Southampton, Wolves and Villa already.

On the Champions league, we're sweating getting out the group stages again. After seeing us bottle the group last season and then our disastrous start against Young Boys, I'm not sure how we could be giving ourselves a high chance of winning the trophy.

We're already out the League cup. That leaves the FA cup as our most likely chance at a trophy. Again a cup competition a bit of a lottery depending on luck of the draw etc.

If we win the Europa because we failed to get out the CL group stage that's an absolute disaster and frankly we'd be celebrating failure if we saw it as an achievement.

Sometimes it takes a while to integrate new players, so it’s a step back before we hopefully do two or more forward, right? I agree that you’d want more than a marginal improvement with the kind of window we’ve had. And I’m not saying we’ll necessarily pick up a throphy if we improve on last year, but I’d think it’s likely. We’d have to improve a lot on last year, but last year was completely screwed up by the pandemic. We effectively had no pre-season, and good lord it showed and we were laughed at in the beginning. How did that all pan out? So I think the situation warrants some patience and trust. The kind of thing I think of when I hear the word supporters. Not that people are wrong to voice misgivings, yesterday was a real shit sandwich.

Also, you mention our weak start in the CL group, last year we came flying out the gates, then we got complacent. And a bit unlucky. Martial should have had PSG dead and buried, and instead we get Fred sent off (partially on Ole that), and we brick it against Red Bull. You grow, learn, add better players, and you don’t judge this early on when we’re still in for three trophies. At least that’s where I’m at for now.

Well if we are 2nd with 5 points more, and still far off a title challenge, no trophies we have "improved" as well.

We’d also have outperformed two of the other teams which can’t be sneezed at. Should Ole be sacked if he finishes ahead of say, Klopp in the league two years in a row? Ahead of two of three managers whose shoes he supposedly isn’t fit to lace?
 
That's ridiculous. You'd celebrate any trophy after 5 seasons without one and being regulars in the Europa League. It's not 2009 anymore.
You're right it's 2021 and we're in the Champions League. We're not in the Europa League. The only way we could be in the Europa League is failing to get out a group containing Young Boys, Villareal and Atlanta. I am not willing to pretend the manager has done a great job by winning the Europa when only sheer incompetence could get us into that competition in the first place.

We're talking about assessing the manager here. Sure the fans can celebrate winning a football game, but that's not the same as pretending the manager has done a great job.
 
It's simple for me. Uniteds best system is 433 with an emphasis on being attacking and direct rather than a possession based style. Most of your players suit this approach and it's also closer to the philosophy wielded under Ferguson for years.

So many great and talented players but I just feel Ole doesn't have that kind of personality or even tactical nous to extract the potential from this squad.

De Gea
AWB Maguire Varane Shaw
Matic
Fernandes Pogba
Greenwood Ronaldo Sancho

If coached and instructed to play using direct patterns, I feel this team could be almost unstoppable. The wide forwards would regularly rotate with Rashford and Martial whilst Fred, whose not that reliable, could step in for Matic on occassion. In January or next summer sign Ndidi or Paulihiha from Sporting to upgrade the CDM role.

The key for me though is the management and particularly their ability to build a culture of accountability. For instance, if Pogba is not willing to work hard out of possession in this system; VDB or Mctominay in and Pogba out. When Fernandes continually gives possession away which leads to turnovers, he needs to be dropped. You could switch the wide forwards like Guardiola does at City to keep everyone on their toes and to maximize performance. The system would also help disguise Wan-Bissakas weaknesses as with a forward in front, he'd need to hold his position more and be ready to defend.

All of this is possible but it seems the management lack the aptitude to change the culture whilst the coaches aren't tactically as versed compared to their competition. Seeing the amount of quality players in that squad, it should be performing much better.
 
There’s lots of takes on why we struggle with this. My take is that we’ve always struggled to have a controlled sense of possession throughout Ole’s tenure. That manifests itself as not being able to play out from the back or through a high press, not being able to dominate good passing teams in midfield and not being able to work the opposition when they try and play a low block. It all stems from the limited way we work and move the ball around the pitch, both individually and tactically.

When top teams play against a solid defence they don’t just hold on to the ball waiting for a gap. They pull and stretch the opposition in specific ways to make gaps open up and then work them. Even against Newcastle where we played pretty well, we struggled to make clear chances in the first half because our possession was aimless and just seemed to be about letting our players taking turns to try something, rather than executing a plan designed to penetrate a packed back line.

I can get on-board with that in general, but to what extent do you think its down to tactics, and to what extent do you think it's down to the lack of technical ability from our two CMs?

I'm starting to think this season is going to be a write-off if we stick with McFred, so we might as well try something different. Could we try Pogba and dvdB/Matic at CM (especially at home) and have Fernandes as the #10?

I'm worried all this talk about how many shots we are having is a Red Herring, because we're not really creating chances
 
You're right it's 2021 and we're in the Champions League. We're not in the Europa League. The only way we could be in the Europa League is failing to get out a group containing Young Boys, Villareal and Atlanta. I am not willing to pretend the manager has done a great job by winning the Europa when only sheer incompetence could get us into that competition in the first place.

We're talking about assessing the manager here. Sure the fans can celebrate winning a football game, but that's not the same as pretending the manager has done a great job.

Yes but you know what I'm trying to say, times change. For example, in the last five seasons; 16-17 to last season, have you played more Europa league or Champions league matches?

Obviously theres been progression in the last couple of seasons but ultimately the stats show United have been more of a Europa rather than champions league club for half a decade despite the amount of money spent. Therefore winning a Europa trophy shouldn't be looked down on. Imo, that would be great success just as it would be for Arsenal.
 
Yesterday it showed that the team has no understanding with each other. There are so many easy but misplaced passes, so they don't know how the other player is going to move
 
We often look like a bunch of strangers playing together. The amount of simple passes that we don't seem to be able to make is staggering. Players don't often seem to be where the others expect. There's just such a disconnect so often. We're not a cohesive unit.
 
To many people wanting to have their cake and eat it on here.
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
 
To many people wanting to have their cake and eat it on here.
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
:lol:

Yeah, I'm sure our increase in players producing more individual brilliance has nothing to do with buying better players.
 
My fear for Sancho is seeing how he’s made no effort to integrate VDB into the team. If he doesn’t know how to use you he just…won’t. We never tried to accommodate VDB. We didn’t try and work Sancho into a system nor did we try and develop a system around him. He named him in the team, it didn’t work out and now he’s on the bench.

I worry Sancho will go the same way. We’ll never accommodate him. He’ll just be plonked in middle of a team with no identity or style and if it doesn’t work he’s out and we need to get those ‘parasite owners’ to buy another midfielder.

VDB’s failure is entirely down to mismanagement. He hasn’t been given fair crack and failed. He wasn’t given the chance. So far it has been same with Sancho and I can’t see that changing

Agree. If you look at Ole’s actions rather than his words, he seems to possess a very basic, pre-modern understanding of football. A Roy of the Rovers reliance on individual brilliance, with no appreciation of midfield or structure. Sometimes this will work, as we’ve seen- because he has brought some great players to the club. But often it won’t work- as we’ve also seen, and are seeing more and more frequently.

At one point I thought he would learn, but there’s actually no sign of that. Like many others, I guess, I’ve had enough.
 
:lol:

Yeah, I'm sure our increase in players producing more individual brilliance has nothing to do with buying better players.
Considering it's been accusation against Oles United since he took charge you'd think people might have started changing their tune by now.

I mean it was an accusation when we had Lukaku up front :wenger: :rolleyes:
 
My fear for Sancho is seeing how he’s made no effort to integrate VDB into the team. If he doesn’t know how to use you he just…won’t. We never tried to accommodate VDB. We didn’t try and work Sancho into a system nor did we try and develop a system around him. He named him in the team, it didn’t work out and now he’s on the bench.

I worry Sancho will go the same way. We’ll never accommodate him. He’ll just be plonked in middle of a team with no identity or style and if it doesn’t work he’s out and we need to get those ‘parasite owners’ to buy another midfielder.

VDB’s failure is entirely down to mismanagement. He hasn’t been given fair crack and failed. He wasn’t given the chance. So far it has been same with Sancho and I can’t see that changing
This. Fecking this.
 
To many people wanting to have their cake and eat it on here.
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
Coaches don’t coach individual brilliance at this level. They’re not out with Ronaldo with a cone teaching him tricks.

What they are there to coach is systems, a tactical approach, what to do without the ball, how to set up etc. All of which we’ve been horrendous at for a while
 
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.

These two things don't contradict each other at all.

We score more than expected goals because our expected goals are (and have been, for years now) far too low for a team with the squad we have. Which is because none of the managers have managed to implement a reliable attacking structure.
 
To many people wanting to have their cake and eat it on here.
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
To answer your question: Yes, that can be true, but is doesn't have to be. As someone said, you don't train Ronaldo to do a fancy flick to then be able to a have free shot on goal. Of course, these things are intertwined on several levels but I think, you are clinging too much on this term "moments of brilliance".

When that term is used, it doesn't necessarily refer to brilliance or excellence or high quality. It is more in contrast to "a well worked goal where a team does a chain of actions to end up with a high scoring chance".
"Moments of brilliance" or "individual brilliance" are more meant to emphasize the "coincidence" or "fate" factor in a goal. It is tricky to describe and I think, the term is a bit misleading in itself but for me, the difference is this: when I sit in front of the TV and I feel the pressure is rising, somebody has overcome the press, now he's executing a through ball to release a winger in space without a defender in front of him and in the middle the striker has started to move into the box, I am getting tense, I can't sit relaxed but will go closer to the screen. This is what I would describe as a "well worked goal" where players took smart decisions and executed a plan. On the contrary is for example Greenwood dribbling close to a packed penalty box, shooting with a low scoring chance, the keeper can't get a hold and Ronaldo takes the rebound.

Individual brilliance isn't necessarily great play or a great piece of skill - it might be just making use of an opportunity resulting from a mistake. Of course no trainer will stop his player do that stuff. But if you are mostly reliant on scoring rebounds, deflections, 30yard screamer, direct freekicks, flying header, goal keeper blunder, VAR decisions (not saying we are relying on that right now), than at some point it will cause you some issues. Any team makes use of these things, they belong to the sport and are part of the highlight reels. And nobody wants United to stop scoring such goals. But, our opponents score other goals as well. Set pieces, tap-ins, third man runs and so on. I am not saying we don't do that occasionally from time to time but the feeling is, that while other teams rely on individual brilliance to 70%, we do to 90%. Which gives us some disadvantages at the end of the day.
 
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The 2nd Arsenal goal vs Spurs this afternoon is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier - luring the opposition in, beating their press and then when the cutback is made by ESR, Arsenal have an overload in the middle and Aubameyang tucks it away.

We seem to really struggle to draw teams out. I think this is because Maguire and Varane (correctly) don't trust Fred and McTominay.

How many games do we see where 7/8 red shirts smash against a wall of defensive players over and over again, without really creating anything? It's because we're not drawing opponents out from their comfort of "defending deep and in numbers" approach
 
We often look like a bunch of strangers playing together. The amount of simple passes that we don't seem to be able to make is staggering. Players don't often seem to be where the others expect. There's just such a disconnect so often. We're not a cohesive unit.
This has been my biggest gripe with this team for a long time. It’s 10 players seemingly doing their own thing. There doesn’t seem to be an overall strategy of how they align all together and move as a unit. Always disjointed and relying on random individual moments to make the difference.

I’m not sure how this is fixed, but whatever Ole gives as instructions/directions clearly doesn’t work and/or the players aren’t listening to him.
 
We have been poorly coached for such a long time now I think a lot of people are just used to the way we play. It goes all the way back to the last few seasons under Fergie who relied on the players ‘turning it on’ instead of a well drilled unit approach.

The issue is this is now the ’United Way’, either a lot of slow ponderous build up play going nowhere or hitting teams on the counter. We hardly ever play the same combinations to a high standard to get through the press. I’d say we must be one of if not the worst passing team in the PL.

When we do get a new manager he really does need to be more progressive and implement actual systems of play as we’ll not win the big trophies carrying on as we are in my opinion.
 
The 2nd Arsenal goal vs Spurs this afternoon is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier - luring the opposition in, beating their press and then when the cutback is made by ESR, Arsenal have an overload in the middle and Aubameyang tucks it away.

We seem to really struggle to draw teams out. I think this is because Maguire and Varane (correctly) don't trust Fred and McTominay.

How many games do we see where 7/8 red shirts smash against a wall of defensive players over and over again, without really creating anything? It's because we're not drawing opponents out from their comfort of "defending deep and in numbers" approach
That is in interesting way of thinking and granted, yesterday we most definitely should have done that. But generally, I think, that description of the situation is a bit too simplistic. The opponent will do, what they think serves the biggest likelihood of getting a result. If that means surrendering the ball to us and wait for good counterchances, then you most certainly won't be able to lure somebody away. So the only real way of getting "robust" in terms of consistently winning games is a) being comfortable without the ball because you are selfassured to win it if necessary and to be dangerous on transitions and b) being comfortable in possession to control a match and its tempo.

Thats where we are right now, we have to add possession game to our arsenal, doesn't have to be tiki-taka or even LVG but remember Fergie, his teams were well able to recycle the ball and keep it if necessary.

Fred and McTominay certainly are factors to keep in mind, but they are most certainly not the most important or striking ones. Being closer together as team, move as a team. Nothing to do with McFred. Challenge an organised defense by moving the ball fast around to try to force errors or to increase tempo with one blink of an eye to break the organisation. Have some players who are comfortable dribblers to use that to break organisation because two defenders are needed to defend a good dribbler which then will create space somewhere on the pitch. We have to start really challenging other teams. And to increase pressure when needed. Yesterday was the epitome of what not to do. Hit and hope, nobody knows what to do, a few players don't want to be criticised, so they become invisible (yes, looking at you Scott... but Shaw is capable of that just as well). Other players think, they have the obligation to force something so they become impatient and tense and at the end of the day, they shoot from anywhere while knowing, that this isn't the best way forward. It was kind of heartbreaking...

We don't have to be perfect with posession - I know, Fergie was best known for his devastating transition football. Attack in waves. Increase the pressure when needed, soak up pressure into oblivion when needed. But Fergie had possession on a good level as one weapon available. And Ole needs to add that too. Our issues with low blocks and in general come from the fact that we move too slow, with and without the ball, we aren't compact which makes every pass a little more difficult to execute, we seemingly aren't great in pre-planned moves which would result in us being able to act faster because players would already know where team mates are and which action is to be executed now instead of needing the control the ball first to be able to do anything and then to look which option is the least bad one.
 
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we seemingly aren't great in pre-planned moves which would result in us being able to act faster because players would already know where team mates are and which action is to be executed now instead of needing the control the ball first to be able to do anything and then to look which option is the least bad one.

And the most effective pre-planned moves (patterns, if the people triggered by that particular word will forgive the usage) that we do have are all based on quick transitions: Fernandes's no-look first time through ball on the turn when he knows Rashford/Greenwood will be running in behind, or Pogba's similar ball over the top.

When the other team's defence is settled, we tend to take too long to shift the ball around. And we don't use the full width of the pitch, because the vast majority of our forwards want to play in the same space on the left side.

And this particular problem of abandoning one half of the pitch predates Solskjaer by years: I'd say the last time we had a functional attack down the right wing was when Van Gaal briefly stumbled upon that 4-3-3 in 2015, with Herrera on the right of the midfield three, Valencia at right back and Mata floating around as the nominal right winger. No coincidence that was the most fluent football we played under him.
 
The 2nd Arsenal goal vs Spurs this afternoon is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier - luring the opposition in, beating their press and then when the cutback is made by ESR, Arsenal have an overload in the middle and Aubameyang tucks it away.

We seem to really struggle to draw teams out. I think this is because Maguire and Varane (correctly) don't trust Fred and McTominay.

How many games do we see where 7/8 red shirts smash against a wall of defensive players over and over again, without really creating anything? It's because we're not drawing opponents out from their comfort of "defending deep and in numbers" approach
You don't have to describe it, it's already obvious what patterns refer to. Some people just call it a myth to be deliberately obtuse. They know what they see when they tune in to a City game for instance. It's kinda hard to miss the premeditation in the way well setup teams play.
 
I can get on-board with that in general, but to what extent do you think its down to tactics, and to what extent do you think it's down to the lack of technical ability from our two CMs?

I'm starting to think this season is going to be a write-off if we stick with McFred, so we might as well try something different. Could we try Pogba and dvdB/Matic at CM (especially at home) and have Fernandes as the #10?

I'm worried all this talk about how many shots we are having is a Red Herring, because we're not really creating chances

Tactics and personnel go hand in hand. You pick your players to suit your tactics or your tactics to suit your players. Ole is doing neither right now. He hasn't upgraded the midfield since he arrived. We're at a point now where that's his responsibility. In his first summer window, I get that he had to prioritise & the defence was a good place to start, but we've just gone past his third summer window. Given how crucial midfield is, and the known limitations of McFred, its not some unforeseeable problem. It was a decision to go into the season with them again.

So we have to play in a way that accommodates them, but when he does play McFred his tactics do them no favours. We increasingly look like a 4-2-4 when we attack, leaving McT and Fred to do it all alone in the middle. If you give those two a zone outside our own box, ask them to firefight and hand off the ball with a short pass to a playmaker, occasionally overload an attack, they'll do a decent job for you. But we're asking them to run the entire midfield by themselves. Bruno is allowed to play like a second striker in attack and Pogba goes where he thinks he can make a chance. So McFred are left to do the DM stuff, but also to dictate the team's tempo, keep control of the ball through possession, as well as feeding the strikeforce with long passes into attacking areas. That's a total misreading of their strengths.

We either have to change how we play, or who we play. That was obvious throughout last season & it's still the same now. If Ole really feels like he wants to wait to get another MF in, then in the meantime we have to change our tactics and formation to cover McFred til that person arrives.