We are an awfully coached team

[Foxbatt]

No...It was a tongue in cheek comment on being the type of fan that doesn’t sweat losing titles so much as deserving them. Don’t get me started, we scored 3 goals against Brighton last season- won the game 3-2, one of the goals was an OG and another a penalty- against Brighton who were nowhere near as solid as they are now. I could give similar specific examples for at least half of our games last season. I’m not saying anything beyond the fact that my eyes saw shite football! No analysis needed, no stats needed, no end of season recap of “look where we finished so we must have been good innit”...just used my eyeballs and saw first hand- plain slow boring uninspired attacking.

Of course it’s nice to win shit but you want to unequivocally be deserving of it(give and take a bit of luck) Although I celebrated the Rashford penalty against PSG like a maniac...I also sat down with the lads afterwards and was happy to admit we were played off the park and relied on a slice of good luck that only god or VAR could have given us. Nothing wrong with one or two smash and grabs but don’t make a habit of it!

Since Mourinho, coaches of other big teams see our threat being solely on the counter. I’m glad Ole now has the squad to change that and I hope he does.

He does talk the talk but it seems that his staff has not been able to implement it yet. Every game is not going to free flowing but we need to stop making basic mistakes. Get our set pieces including corners sorted out. Get our passing more crisp and more accurate.
Some people also forget that even before Pep and Klopp, PL had top managers like SAF and Arsene who played good attractive passing football that was successful.

 

[Lentwood]

Champions league.

So what? We need to stop this obsession with cup competitions as some kind of 'ultimate measure of success'. The league is, always has been, and always will be, the one true measure of the quality of a football team.

 

[Verminator]

Is it really a big sample size for in game management though? When you have a working tactic prepared, but still get a goal down you can stick to your setup and turn around the game. That is not really proving that you are good at reacting, and I feel most of United's comebacks where of that kind.

To be clear I don't think Ole is exceptionally bad, I just have the impression that he makes more mistakes when his planned tactics are not working than in preparation to a match. Have a plan, bring fresh legs into that setup if needed seems to work well for him.

Formation changes during a match like against Bern in general seems not going well for him.

Considering that the average tenure of a Premier league manager is 69.4 games, how big of a sample size would you deem appropriate?

 

[ivaldo]

Our improvement is driven by getting the right players and improving what we have (Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay), Ole gets the credit for that. But I don't see any improvements in our game. And with this squad we should be playing much better football.

Curious as to what you mean by that, and what it is, specifically, you'd want improving. For me, we've undeniably improved the way we play. We're more assertive, our fullbacks are far more impactful, we have plenty of movement in behind, we aren't nearly as reliant on counter attacking. As a rule, the goals we've conceded have tended to come from a horrendous piece of misfortune, or individual error.

 

[ivaldo]

Lack of coaching.

All I see here is individual brilliance from 5 players, all at the same time.

 

[stefan92]

Considering that the average tenure of a Premier league manager is 69.4 games, how big of a sample size would you deem appropriate?

The amount of games that is relevant to the question about in game management is far less.

I would not count any game where the setup from the beginning works as part of the in game reaction sample. And I think mostly it works, so there is rarely a need to react in game with tactical changes.

And I have to admit I am far from watching every United game, so my sample size of games I actually can rate is mostly limited to the CL and some match reports about the PL. But in the CL especially there were some questionable games like now against Bern or the loss in Leipzig last season, where Ole did not react the right way in my opinion.

Still I think the sample size is large enough to see that this kind of tactical reaction is not Oles strength. But it is relatively small because he mostly prepares his team the right way.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Considering that the average tenure of a Premier league manager is 69.4 games, how big of a sample size would you deem appropriate?

10 years I suspect, and even then there'd be some sort of excuse as to why "it's not long enough of a time frame" -

 

[UnitedSofa]

The amount of games that is relevant to the question about in game management is far less.

I would not count any game where the setup from the beginning works as part of the in game reaction sample. And I think mostly it works, so there is rarely a need to react in game with tactical changes.

And I have to admit I am far from watching every United game, so my sample size of games I actually can rate is mostly limited to the CL and some match reports about the PL. But in the CL especially there were some questionable games like now against Bern or the loss in Leipzig last season, where Ole did not react the right way in my opinion.

So you think a team should absolutely batter a team and then that "tactic" should not be used?

If you think when a team comfortably wins 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 that there are literally 0 in game changes, then you're naive. There is definitely in game tactic changes throughout a football match, regardless if you are winning comfortably or not, there will be changes.

 

[stefan92]

So you think a team should absolutely batter a team and then that "tactic" should not be used?

If you think when a team comfortably wins 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 that there are literally 0 in game changes, then you're naive. There is definitely in game tactic changes throughout a football match, regardless if you are winning comfortably or not, there will be changes.

True, but I just think the bigger the changes are, the worse Ole often is at doing them (not always), or he does not dare to change anything meaningful despite things going wrong, but this is were it really counts or you drop out of CL or lose the EL final etc.

What I think is simply that you don't need big changes when you are the better team. United usually is by far the better team on the pitch, so you usually only need to adjust details in game, but not the overall plan how to play.

 

[Foxbatt]

Curious as to what you mean by that, and what it is, specifically, you'd want improving. For me, we've undeniably improved the way we play. We're more assertive, our fullbacks are far more impactful, we have plenty of movement in behind, we aren't nearly as reliant on counter attacking. As a rule, the goals we've conceded have tended to come from a horrendous piece of misfortune, or individual error.

Yes most goals are scored when players make individual errors.
The West Ham game too. Maguire, McTominay and Varane. All three made individual errors for their goal. I would add Shaw for not following his man too. It's the job of the coaches to eliminate these individual errors. There goal was avoidable at all phases.

 

[Champ]

Yes most goals are scored when players make individual errors.
The West Ham game too. Maguire, McTominay and Varane. All three made individual errors for their goal. I would add Shaw for not following his man too. It's the job of the coaches to eliminate these individual errors. There goal was avoidable at all phases.

Stands to reason then, that Ole is doing a lot better than most at this judging by our results over the last season and a bit.

 

[ivaldo]

Yes most goals are scored when players make individual errors.
The West Ham game too. Maguire, McTominay and Varane. All three made individual errors for their goal. I would add Shaw for not following his man too. It's the job of the coaches to eliminate these individual errors. There goal was avoidable at all phases.

The West Ham goal came from a heavily deflected shot. You can be a pedant about things that could've been different, but you can say that with every single goal. To put that down as a coaching issue is a stretch. The second was a handball. Again, the coaches can reasonably be expected to 'coach' that out of his game.

 

[Foxbatt]

Stands to reason then, that Ole is doing a lot better than most at this judging by our results over the last season and a bit.

It's obvious that better individual players would be better than not so good players. He has got a good squad of players. If our ambition is being in the CL then he is a good enough manager and his coaching staff with this squad is probably going to keep achieving it.
If he wants to raise the standard and win the PL or CL then he has got to do lot more.

 

[Verminator]

The amount of games that is relevant to the question about in game management is far less.

I would not count any game where the setup from the beginning works as part of the in game reaction sample. And I think mostly it works, so there is rarely a need to react in game with tactical changes.

And I have to admit I am far from watching every United game, so my sample size of games I actually can rate is mostly limited to the CL and some match reports about the PL. But in the CL especially there were some questionable games like now against Bern or the loss in Leipzig last season, where Ole did not react the right way in my opinion.

Still I think the sample size is large enough to see that this kind of tactical reaction is not Oles strength. But it is relatively small because he mostly prepares his team the right way.

That is where I stopped reading.

 

[Champ]

It's obvious that better individual players would be better than not so good players. He has got a good squad of players. If our ambition is being in the CL then he is a good enough manager and his coaching staff with this squad is probably going to keep achieving it.
If he wants to raise the standard and win the PL or CL then he has got to do lot more.

So I'm confused here.

So you're telling me that it's the coaching staff who need to coach players not to make individual mistakes, yet when there's individual brilliance that has come from the individual and not the coaching staff? Am I close?

I mean your wrong about individual players being better than not so good players, as without coaching, application and correct training then we are back at Moyes's level aren't we?

 

[Foxbatt]

The West Ham goal came from a heavily deflected shot. You can be a pedant about things that could've been different, but you can say that with every single goal. To put that down as a coaching issue is a stretch. The second was a handball. Again, the coaches can reasonably be expected to 'coach' that out of his game.

It is when you have the CB dragged out to areas he doesn't have to go. Then have the FB not following his man. Even then it was alright. But for McTominay to leave his man and run to the box and let the Hammers player take the shot. It may have been deflected but a shot from that area is scoreable.

 

[Smores]

Stands to reason then, that Ole is doing a lot better than most at this judging by our results over the last season and a bit.

Didn't our goals conceeded go up last season from the prior season? It was also way above our recent years despite a better defence.

A lot of our issues on defense were the same recurring issues worringly. We've spent to improve Lindelof which is certainly one way to improve but it won't improve all aspects.

With the quality of Varane you'd hope we drastically improve at the back either way.

 

[Foxbatt]

So I'm confused here.

So you're telling me that it's the coaching staff who need to coach players not to make individual mistakes, yet when there's individual brilliance that has come from the individual and not the coaching staff? Am I close?

I mean your wrong about individual players being better than not so good players, as without coaching, application and correct training then we are back at Moyes's level aren't we?

If a player handles the ball like Shaw did or AWB's tackle there is nothing much a coach can do.
But if CBs get dragged over, the DM leaves his man in the middle and the FB don't follow his man, all that coming from our left side being completely overloaded for some time and we don't take remedial action then it's on the coach.

 

[Champ]

Didn't our goals conceeded go up last season from the prior season? It was also way above our recent years despite a better defence.

A lot of our issues on defense were the same recurring issues worringly. We've spent to improve Lindelof which is certainly one way to improve but it won't improve all aspects.

With the quality of Varane you'd hope we drastically improve at the back either way.

We had a healthy amount of goalkeeping howlers last season, that certainly looks to have been resolved so far.
Also Varane will certainly help out with dealing with set pieces which were also our nemesis last season.

 

[Champ]

If a player handles the ball like Shaw did or AWB's tackle there is nothing much a coach can do.
But if CBs get dragged over, the DM leaves his man in the middle and the FB don't follow his man, all that coming from our left side being completely overloaded for some time and we don't take remedial action then it's on the coach.

And when exactly has all that happened this season?

Does the coach not then deserve credit for a free flowing move which ended in what should have been a penalty for example?

 

[ivaldo]

It is when you have the CB dragged out to areas he doesn't have to go. Then have the FB not following his man. Even then it was alright. But for McTominay to leave his man and run to the box and let the Hammers player take the shot. It may have been deflected but a shot from that area is scoreable.

That'll apply to every goal then, and therefore all can be identified as a coaching issue. It wasn't even a big chance, just a wicked deflection.

 

[Champ]

That'll apply to every goal then, and therefore all can be identified as a coaching issue.

Ergo by this metric, when you score more goals than you concede it points to good coaching, ergo, we are a very well coached team.

Yet the poster is arguing from the other side.

This place is so confusing

 

[Verminator]

We had a healthy amount of goalkeeping howlers last season, that certainly looks to have been resolved so far.
Also Varane will certainly help out with dealing with set pieces which were also our nemesis last season.

Agreed.
And a set piece coach being employed. (This is after all a coaching criticism thread)
It is almost as if Ole is identifying our weaknesses, and trying to remove them, just to undermine Johnny no-name on the Internet. The cad

 

[Smores]

So I'm confused here.

So you're telling me that it's the coaching staff who need to coach players not to make individual mistakes, yet when there's individual brilliance that has come from the individual and not the coaching staff? Am I close?

I mean your wrong about individual players being better than not so good players, as without coaching, application and correct training then we are back at Moyes's level aren't we?

Isn't that just a long standing reality of football?

You can have teams of lower quality have very solid defences because the structure and organisation means errors get reduced naturally.

Just because that's true it doesn't mean that individual technical brilliance must also be coaching. One is structural

 

[Champ]

And a set piece coach being employed. (This is after all a coaching criticism thread)

Which again points to good coaching, where were we weakest? Ah, let's improve that!!
Would be poor coaching not too.

 

[Verminator]

Which again points to good coaching, where were we weakest? Ah, let's improve that!!
Would be poor coaching not too.

Exactly. I added to the post you quoted, saying as much.

 

[ivaldo]

Ergo by this metric, when you score more goals than you concede it points to good coaching, ergo, we are a very well coached team.

Yet the poster is arguing from the other side.

This place is so confusing

Absolutely.

What's interesting is we've also scored 50% more goals from open play than any other team. Our 'patterns of play' can't be that bad then!

 

[Champ]

Isn't that just a long standing reality of football?

You can have teams of lower quality have very solid defences because the structure and organisation means errors get reduced naturally.

Just because that's true it doesn't mean that individual technical brilliance must also be coaching. One is structural

There's definitely an element of truth to that yes,

But you can't have your cake and eat it.

People cannot claim that mistakes point to poor coaching, yet brilliant 30 yard screamers don't, that's not how it works.
You go go as granular as you wish, for example...
You can take Lingards goal against West Ham, a brilliant individual goal, however there were runners around him opening up the space for Lingard to run into.
The coaching no doubt is why the runners were making the runs, without that you don't score.

 

[Verminator]

Absolutely.

What's interesting is we've also scored 50% more goals from open play than any other team. Our 'patterns of play' can't be that bad then!

But, but that is down to individual errors by the opposition, that their coach could do nothing about.

 

[Foxbatt]

That'll apply to every goal then, and therefore all can be identified as a coaching issue. It wasn't even a big chance, just a wicked deflection.

It was a wicked deflection because he his kick was badly directed. Are you happy having our CB dragged out to the touchline because it has been happening for a while. That our left was getting overloaded. Our DM leaving his man in the centre just outside the box?
As for the set piece specialist, so far it's not been working. It may work given time but we all can see the corners were for Maguire. It's on the match day thread too.
Ole as a manager is good. His coaching staff so far has not been top class. It's three years now they have been at United. With the players we have we should be winning a trophy.

 

[Champ]

But, but that is down to individual errors by the opposition, that their coach could do nothing about.

 

[Champ]

It was a wicked deflection because he his kick was badly directed. Are you happy having our CB dragged out to the touchline because it has been happening for a while. That our left was getting overloaded. Our DM leaving his man in the centre just outside the box?
As for the set piece specialist, so far it's not been working. It may work given time but we all can see the corners were for Maguire. It's on the match day thread too.
Ole as a manager is good. His coaching staff so far has not been top class. It's three years now they have been at United. With the players we have we should be winning a trophy.

We were a spot kick away from winning a trophy last season, it's not like we are a million miles away.
You can't win a trophy 5 games into the season also, so pointless moaning about coaching now is it not?

Hypothetical situation:

What will happen if we carry on playing the same way yet win the league? Will that be down to good coaching??

 

[Amarsdd]

We were a spot kick away from winning a trophy last season, it's not like we are a million miles away.
You can't win a trophy 5 games into the season also, so pointless moaning about coaching now is it not?

Hypothetical situation:

What will happen if we carry on playing the same way yet win the league? Will that be down to good coaching??

Individual brilliance, good vibes, astonishing luck, other teams being shit etc etc

 

[ivaldo]

It was a wicked deflection because he his kick was badly directed. Are you happy having our CB dragged out to the touchline because it has been happening for a while. That our left was getting overloaded. Our DM leaving his man in the centre just outside the box?
As for the set piece specialist, so far it's not been working. It may work given time but we all can see the corners were for Maguire. It's on the match day thread too.
Ole as a manager is good. His coaching staff so far has not been top class. It's three years now they have been at United. With the players we have we should be winning a trophy.

Its incredible then, that with so many bad things happening all at once, West Ham weren't even able to work the ball into the box...

Fine. That's not working yet. We have, however scored 50% more goals than any other team from open play so far. So would you say our attacking coaches are doing a better job than any other in the league? Liverpool by comparison have scored as many goals from set plays ( 6) as they have from open play. Chelsea are having significantly more percentage of their possession in their own 3rd, meaning they're struggling to work in the final 3rd. Were also, statistically, the most balanced team in the league in terms of what side we attack down. We aren't relying on any on section of the pitch to create. I think if we're going to make these claims about coaching then we need to be consistent.

 

[VanDeBank]

We have carved open City at Etihad when they were looking unstoppable. It's more down to consistency and concentration when it's not a showpiece match that is lacking.

Carved open? Mate, they created loads of chances and could easily have scored 5 on another day. The score doesn't reflect how the game went.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

We have, however scored 50% more goals than any other team from open play so far

From a tiny sample of games, further skewed by the fact that everyone's played different opposition, so I wouldn't rely on this as evidence of anything.

If we're still ahead of everyone else at the end of the season, then yes, the poor-coaching argument looks ... questionable at best

 

[Verminator]

It was a wicked deflection because he his kick was badly directed. Are you happy having our CB dragged out to the touchline because it has been happening for a while. That our left was getting overloaded. Our DM leaving his man in the centre just outside the box?
As for the set piece specialist, so far it's not been working. It may work given time but we all can see the corners were for Maguire. It's on the match day thread too.
Ole as a manager is good. His coaching staff so far has not been top class. It's three years now they have been at United. With the players we have we should be winning a trophy.

We have had very little chance to devote time to specialised training. Fixture congestion, Euros, international breaks, they all eat up time. This season especially so.

What trophy should we win in September?

 

[ivaldo]

From a tiny sample of games, further skewed by the fact that everyone's played different opposition, so I wouldn't rely on this as evidence of anything.

If we're still ahead of everyone else at the end of the season, then yes, the poor-coaching argument looks ... questionable at best

That goes both ways though. For now, things are looking very promising, and the accusations of poor coaching are at direction odds of how we performed compared to other teams.

 

[Dve]

I think he doesn't need you to explain it for him, especially if you can't keep the emotions out of discussion.

Oh, to state that you have no clue about what´s going on in training is hardly an emotion. And whether he needed my help our not, you seemingly needed to have it explained to you. But my pleasure, really, so you don´t need to say "thanks".

 

[Borys]

Curious as to what you mean by that, and what it is, specifically, you'd want improving. For me, we've undeniably improved the way we play. We're more assertive, our fullbacks are far more impactful, we have plenty of movement in behind, we aren't nearly as reliant on counter attacking. As a rule, the goals we've conceded have tended to come from a horrendous piece of misfortune, or individual error.

I am not sure in which period of time you're claiming those improvements (so I'm not disagreeing), but my short answer is since Bruno came here, we've improved our game slightly. We've improved massively on players, that's why you see Varane clearing headers that could cause Lindelof a problem, and on the other end Ronaldo/Greenwood is finishing chances that last season Martial and Rashford would've missed. That's the improvement I see. But in terms of team play, we still move the ball slow, players receiving the pass need to take a good look around to see what options they have and quite often they don't have any, and our midfield still seems to be functional only if McTominay and Fred play there.

A lot of people seem to get very nervous about this coaching issue because we're getting good results, but I also see we've been quite lucky recently and unfortunately I don't expect that to be a trend. Same as last year we had some bad luck with finishing, although we played some good stuff too and created good chances. That's why I don't see much improvement in terms of general play, we're pretty much on the same level as we were end of 19/20 and starting 20/21.

This squad of players has great potential which we're not using correctly due to our coaching limitations. This should not be an issue against West Hams of the world, but my prediction is we'll struggle massively against any top team. Right now we seem to struggle quite a bit against any team that isn't either playing careless football or totally giving up on pressing our midfield.