I feel like Ole is quite good at building a squad and creating a strategy how to approach matches and therefore does good training sessions. However I often feel like his in-game coaching is his biggest weakness, and that is also the most obvious part of coaching. When things don't go well everyone can see it and say that there should be something changed. And these are the situations when Ole often does not react at all or when he does it does not work well.
We are an awfully coached team
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He has almost double the amount of wins from losing positions than the nearest club? He seems really adept at in game management?
And also: No Premier League side has scored more goals from players off the bench than Manchester United since Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's appointment.
His in game managment cant be that bad.
I think this is one of those things that sticks. At the start of his reign when he didnt have options, he couldn't change much.
Last season, he made subs at half time when we were goals down, won those games so his in game management has improved.
Its just another narrative that suits. When he makes a sub and doesn't work i.e Young Boys = No in game management but when he makes subs like West Ham, goal came from Matic -> Lingard, we are relying on individual brilliance.
Our improvement is driven by getting the right players and improving what we have (Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay), Ole gets the credit for that. But I don't see any improvements in our game. And with this squad we should be playing much better football.
I completely disagree as I'd expect nothing else than praise for the manager, especially from a just-bought high profile player like Varane but that's just my opinion. Plus it's just a short quote, looks like a response to a general question (unless I missed the whole big interview). So not something I'm taking seriously.
That´s not what he is saying. He´s saying you know shit. And I don´t think that´s being naive. No offence.
People become very attached to opinions that are formed based on things that didn't happen.
'I wouldn't have started X today'
'he should have started Y today'
'why did he make that substitution'
'why didn't he made that tactical change'
These are all very comfortable opinions to sit behind because they can't be proven wrong. Nobody knows what would have happened if other decisions were made, but every fan is convinced that if we'd just done what they thought we should have done then everything would have turned out alright.
What you have both posted above are actual real things that have happened over a big enough sample size to be absolutely relevant when it comes to judgement about in-game management, yet they are cast aside for those few instances when Ole didn't do what they wanted him to do and something bad happened.
I think he doesn't need you to explain it for him, especially if you can't keep the emotions out of discussion.
People still say that Zidane is not so good tactically despite 11 trophies at Madrid. I think this would happen to Ole too even if we win the league.
I think reason for this is because when people talk about best managers tactically it's usually managers that have won trophies with different clubs or have overachieved with little resources they have eg Mourinho Conte Simeone Pochettino. Either that or the manager has a distinct style of play that stands out eg Pep Klopp and any of those German hipster. Neither Ole or Zidane match these criteria so some will say they are not all that tactically even if they've won trophies at Madrid or United
I think reason for this is because when people talk about best managers tactically it's usually managers that have won trophies with different clubs or have overachieved with little resources they have eg Mourinho Conte Simeone Pochettino. Either that or the manager has a distinct style of play that stands out eg Pep Klopp and any of those German hipster. Neither Ole or Zidane match these criteria so some will say they are not all that tactically even if they've won trophies at Madrid or United
Is it really a big sample size for in game management though? When you have a working tactic prepared, but still get a goal down you can stick to your setup and turn around the game. That is not really proving that you are good at reacting, and I feel most of United's comebacks where of that kind.
To be clear I don't think Ole is exceptionally bad, I just have the impression that he makes more mistakes when his planned tactics are not working than in preparation to a match. Have a plan, bring fresh legs into that setup if needed seems to work well for him.
Formation changes during a match like against Bern in general seems not going well for him.
I think you just refuse to actually acknowledge what people are saying to you.
Isn't that what happened to Stam? Said some shit and got fired off.
Twitter tacticians are the worst. They draw triangles or lines and start making assumptions. Guess what you can always find 3 players to draw a triangle or a line.
And the images to back their point, as if everyone will pause when the player in possession makes decision.
The points gained from losing positions is over the last two seasons. We are miles ahead (35pts gained) of the next best team (20pts). Two seasons is a huge sample size. The most goals from substitutes stat is since Ole started here. Again, a huge sample size.
I think there is definitely a case to be made that we start games off too slowly, and that may be why we fall behind in games so often. However, when we talk about in-game management surely the only reasonable measurements for effectiveness are pts gained from losing positions, which we excel at, and pts lost from winning positions, which we are roughly level with the other top sides. Impact on the result is entirely what in-game management is, and this is beyond any criticism IMO.
I think we all accept that the Young Boys match was a bad situation. Ole may have made some mistakes there. He'll learn from it. I think we only had 2 red cards last season so its not been a situation that has come up too often for us.
I guess we basically agree, but just have different definitions what in game management actually means. You attribute stuff to it that I would see as part of the preparation.
In the end Ole receives from both of us similar praise and criticism, we just call it a bit different, which I think is entirely fair as we just don't know what exactly he does during training sessions and games, we can just assume.
It's just the way it is. We rarely know what is really going around a football club and what players/managers actually think until they are in a position to do so without being damaged.
It's not a Solskjaer thing, it's a football thing.
Not entirely true. We can sense what is going on by the tone of interviews, morale of the team.
For example, we can tell the squad is quite together, when DDG saves, even the subs were there congratulating him. Its clear to see that there are good things happening.
Under Jose, we saw toxic nature, the training ground incident etc..
That part is definitely true. I don't doubt the spirit in the team and what they feel.
It's what they think that may be uncovered one day. Or maybe it won't - maybe what they are saying right now is absolutely what they think
There’s a difference between that and pretending to know.
Some of the play before the equaliser was also excellent.
Shouldn't we even expect to compete with them?
We are competing though. We'll probably end up somewhere among those teams come the end of the season. Its a bit hyperbolic to suggest we're not even competing. We're not dominating them, but we are competing.
They always decide when to be naive and when not to.
Everyone taking Ole's presser serious is naive, now Varane's comments should be taken very seriously.
The break after the pen was almost as good but I can’t find a clip of it. Ended with Jesse just not getting the ball across
I check the pre-match Ole comments every 5 games, but I always had a feeling we could just launch a chatbot in his place and it'd give the same amount of insight information. That's just PR, just like Varane comments, and some media guys connected to the club talking about Pogba being happy etc. Nothing to take seriously.
I’m firmly in the old school camp of just wanting to see good football. I didn’t like how shite we were in both boxes for corners last season. Ole clearly saw an issue and brought in a new coach- this suggests the level of coaching for set pieces was an issue and Ole has tried to address it. Agreed?
I don’t give a damn about goals scored or league position or possession. What I saw for the majority of last season was not good football. A huge upgrade on Mourinho and previous but still not at the level of our closest competitors. Any fan who doesn’t acknowledge the bad start City made, the issues Pool had losing all the centres halves and Chelsea Changing manager mid season as at least a contributing factor in our final league position is not being entirely honest with themselves. It was an odd season to say the least.Our performances were not good and the majority of you said so yourselves in the match day threads but seem to have short memories.
What the team lacked in speed of play, intensity, creativity and movement, they made up for in will, spirit, individual talent , being lethal on the break and the good luck that any top side needs/gets sometimes. This is down to Ole who I love. He has single handedly raised the levels of professionalism and expectation at the club and put us well and truly on the right track. Whether it’s down to coaching or players not executing instructions, I don’t see much evidence of consistently good attacking play...(Again I don’t care about goals scored stats- I watched those games and remember how the goals came about) but Ole has done enough to be given time progress further. If that means he needs to bring in a new coach, like he did for set pieces, so be it...but the performances we have been putting in so far are very similar to last season...we look like we have the potential to draw most games.To win a league will take more than that but either way, I’m not bothered. I just want to watch good football and hopefully the titles will follow.
I don’t give a damn about goals scored or league position or possession. What I saw for the majority of last season was not good football. A huge upgrade on Mourinho and previous but still not at the level of our closest competitors. Any fan who doesn’t acknowledge the bad start City made, the issues Pool had losing all the centres halves and Chelsea Changing manager mid season as at least a contributing factor in our final league position is not being entirely honest with themselves. It was an odd season to say the least.Our performances were not good and the majority of you said so yourselves in the match day threads but seem to have short memories.
What the team lacked in speed of play, intensity, creativity and movement, they made up for in will, spirit, individual talent , being lethal on the break and the good luck that any top side needs/gets sometimes. This is down to Ole who I love. He has single handedly raised the levels of professionalism and expectation at the club and put us well and truly on the right track. Whether it’s down to coaching or players not executing instructions, I don’t see much evidence of consistently good attacking play...(Again I don’t care about goals scored stats- I watched those games and remember how the goals came about) but Ole has done enough to be given time progress further. If that means he needs to bring in a new coach, like he did for set pieces, so be it...but the performances we have been putting in so far are very similar to last season...we look like we have the potential to draw most games.To win a league will take more than that but either way, I’m not bothered. I just want to watch good football and hopefully the titles will follow.
Chelsea look set to dominate for quite some time going by their signings. Tuchel might be here for another 3 years(far too optimistic for Chelsea I know). Liverpool have tied down all major players this year, they will look to buy next year. City will spend as well and what if they appoint another good manager? Point is when are we going to look at ourselves?
What? Having a manager who is steadily on the up for 3 seasons is not something you want to support?
Err.. what?
Did old school fans not care if their team scored goals and league positions as long as they saw some sort of entertainment? Surely goals are entertaining?
Regarding our performances, you're right- they are quite similar to last season. However we massively grew through the last season, as we too made a terrible start like City. So there's always the potential that we too will click at some point and suddenly all our passes that take a second too long and our play breaks down start coming off and we look amazing.
Champions league.
Hypothetically all 20 teams are competing.
Good for him, but that doesn't change much. We know he's got Pep's number and I always thought Chelsea were favorites in that game however that doesn't mean he will continue to dominate a very tough league. Winning or losing that one game down't mean that we're not competitive with the other top 4.
I agree with a lot of this. If Pep and Klopp didn't exist for example, I wouldn't know how beautiful football can be in the PL. (Post Fergie)
Ole is getting great results despite us not being easy on the eye, I just don't know whether it is enough to get us over the line to a PL or CL. We will find out this season.
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Stop being pedantic. We're competing with the top 4 on pretty much an equal footing now which we weren't doing before this manager. People like to assume all our progress so far under him was inevitable and all he did was slow us rather than him being the core reason for our improvements.
It's bleedin obvious that no player is going to say that his coaches have no clue even if they had no clue.
That's not to say that they have no clue. The point is that our coaching staff has not proved yet to be able to beat the best when called upon to do so. In a match when everything is on the line like winning a trophy. I don't have much issues with Ole apart from him keeping his coaching staff who needs upgrading.
No...It was a tongue in cheek comment on being the type of fan that doesn’t sweat losing titles so much as deserving them. Don’t get me started, we scored 3 goals against Brighton last season- won the game 3-2, one of the goals was an OG and another a penalty- against Brighton who were nowhere near as solid as they are now. I could give similar specific examples for at least half of our games last season. I’m not saying anything beyond the fact that my eyes saw shite football! No analysis needed, no stats needed, no end of season recap of “look where we finished so we must have been good innit”...just used my eyeballs and saw first hand- plain slow boring uninspired attacking.
Of course it’s nice to win shit but you want to unequivocally be deserving of it(give and take a bit of luck) Although I celebrated the Rashford penalty against PSG like a maniac...I also sat down with the lads afterwards and was happy to admit we were played off the park and relied on a slice of good luck that only god or VAR could have given us. Nothing wrong with one or two smash and grabs but don’t make a habit of it!
Since Mourinho, coaches of other big teams see our threat being solely on the counter. I’m glad Ole now has the squad to change that and I hope he does.
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