We are an awfully coached team

meamth said:
Lack of coaching.

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meamth said:
That is not your typical pass into space and hoping for the best. That was intricate passing with moderate speed of building up play.
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One passage in the 92th minute after the opposing team got a late goal against and fecked up a penalty. After a turnover deep in our half, we were able to string a few passes together. Guess we can delete the thread, you proved us all wrong.

It was a nice bit of play - I think, many football supporters would look at you a bit puzzled if you rave about in public.

cyberman said:
For this to hold any weight it needs to include games of McFred since that’s our first choice midfield. We don’t tend to struggle against counters with our first choice midfield, it’s why the opposition went wide and our CBS kept losing headers and that weakness was exposed.
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This is debatable I guess. Of course McFred provide the best protection for us but in the situation shown by the twitter thread, McTominay would struggle just as much. That isn't even a question of quality, it is about numerical advantages. I agree with the poster, it isn't wrong for Fred to counter press instantly, but it creates big trouble if the rest of the team doesn't act accordingly (defense playing a higher line, more players engaged in pressing, somebody ready to make a tactical foul). That is, what is a topic with us, sometimes, it doesn't look that we are having a "plan" that everybody follows. Either be aggressive or be patient - both are valid approaches but both of the approaches suffer when 5 players have a different plan than the other 5.

Lentwood said:
Yet we have somehow managed to finish 3rd and then 2nd, with a young squad which most posters agree, in terms of quality and experience, was probably 4th or 5th best in the league.

Not bad to say we were awfully coached during that period
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I think, that is pushing it pretty much. I mean, I'll happily give you City and Liverpool but Chelsea squad was certainly not undeniably better in all aspects and then who? Spurs? Arsenal? Leicester?

Squadwise I think we belonged into top4 definitely in all those years.
 
Bilbo said:
Agreed, but I mentioned in a later post that I believe the key strengths of Pep and Klopp lie in other areas rather than detailed patterns of play. Its just my opinion. People have a fundamental misunderstanding of tactics and the work that is done behind the scenes. Armchair tacticians were fawning over Tuchel's 'tactical changes' at half time vs Spurs, until he himself admitted he didn't change anything tactically, and used phrases such as 'lacking energy & intent' 'winning duels' 'aggression'. The type of things Ole talks about regularly and is vilified for. These things are still vital components at every level of football, and I don't think that any of Pep, Klopp or Tuchel over-coach their teams in an attacking sense.

I believe in what Ole is trying to do here. I agree with previous posters when they've said that, if there was any kind of sub-par or systemic failure in our coaching, then it would have been revealed by now. Players do due diligence on clubs just as much as clubs do on players and we simply wouldn't be signing the likes of Varane, or retaining the likes of Cavani, if there was a problem here. Footballers talk. Ole's decisions have been found wanting at times but I can live with that. You can't & won't always get it right in football, but I believe that we are moving towards having a formidable football team that will deliver trophies and I've always been prepared to be patient. Its vastly unfair to call this an awfully coached team. Its over the top, like so many other criticisms on social media, but people tend to use over the top language these days.
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Well to be fair this is because he'd made the change 15 minutes before halftime - we started with 3-4-3 but were giving up too much space either side of our midfield vs. Spurs' 3 man midfield, so Tuchel moved Mount deeper and we went 5-3-2. That effectively shut down Spurs' best route of attack, and putting Kante on therefore wasn't a tactical change but one to improve our ability to recover the ball higher up as we now had an advantage in midfield.
 
Forget about patterns of play. What it is that we don't know what to do with the ball once we have it. Lots of times our players stop once we get the ball and look and wait for a while to decide what to do with it. Players like Bruno, Ronaldo and Pogba know what to do with it. Even before Bruno crossed it I knew he was going to try to put it for Ronaldo. At the same time, other players hold on the ball and delay it. That's because there is hardly any movement of our players.
 
Hoboman said:
Believe that we need to up our tempo, intensity and concentration as much as to develop those patterns of play.

Too often the team look slow, letargic and even unfit. It becomes especially evident during first halves of games when we don't concede first and can't add any momentum afterwards.
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Knowing where your teammates position would help a lot in our tempo I reckon. Less time think to pass the ball, which would speed up the ball movement, and in effect our tempo of play.
And that again, also comes with coaching.
 
Bilbo said:
I'd be very interested to see what the people who have been driving this thread forward have to say about this quote
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It is a loyal answer as any player should give when asked about the training sessions. So I don't think it proves much.

And if you want to you can interpret this as "we work on details, but on the wrong ones". I believe no one acccused Ole of being lazy, so that possibility still exists.
 
stefan92 said:
It is a loyal answer as any player should give when asked about the training sessions. So I don't think it proves much.

And if you want to you can interpret this as "we work on details, but on the wrong ones". I believe no one acccused Ole of being lazy, so that possibility still exists.
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So what we have here is a long running debate about something none of us have any real in depth knowledge on - ie our training sessions and quality of coaching. Many people are firmly entrenched in their views on the negative side of the fence. Now we have a player who has seen it all saying those words and they will just be dismissed as irrelevant to the argument?
 
Bilbo said:
So what we have here is a long running debate about something none of us have any real in depth knowledge on - ie our training sessions and quality of coaching. Many people are firmly entrenched in their views on the negative side of the fence. Now we have a player who has seen it all saying those words and they will just be dismissed as irrelevant to the argument?
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Welcome to the Internet :lol:

Yes I believe you are right, there are not enough facts known to come to a consensus, so most people just keep their opinion.
 
sullydnl said:
Wayne Rooney says Man Utd training "more intense than Fergie" under "great manager" David Moyes.

Rio Ferdinand says the change in management at Old Trafford has "been good" and new boss David Moyes understands the mentality of managing a successful squad (and Phil Neville is a great addition to the coaching staff).

It's almost like players are going to say positive things when asked about their current manager and coaches.
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Yes, but it´s also a chance the training sessions under Moyes were good. He did well at Everton and now also at West Ham. There are many factors involved whether you succeed at a club or not, and it does not have to be all down to the training sessions.

And who are these people anyway, that seem to believe they can have a qualified opinion on the coaching without knowing anything about it.
 
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sullydnl said:
Wayne Rooney says Man Utd training "more intense than Fergie" under "great manager" David Moyes.

Rio Ferdinand says the change in management at Old Trafford has "been good" and new boss David Moyes understands the mentality of managing a successful squad (and Phil Neville is a great addition to the coaching staff).

It's almost like players are going to say positive things when asked about their current manager and coaches.
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Players obviously aren't going to criticise these things in public, but then they also don't have to say anything at all.
 
 
The thing is even if our style of play or tactics since Ole started is not convincing some people including me, we've still been doing pretty well. People act like just because we aren't playing as good as City or Pool did it means we can't achieve our objectives when that's what we've been doing in the league mostly and we are still on course to challenge for the title despite having "awful or inferior tactics"
 
Regardless of whether Ole can win trophies with us and whether should be kept as a manager for the club (a question which is best answered after this season), the fact that we are a legitimate title challenger even when Liverpool , Chelsea and City are all looking strong is so important. Ole has restored us to our rightful position as a elite team compared to the dark times we were stuck in. If not for Ole, we would have been looking wistfully at the our rivals teams while camping in the "top 4 race" thread comparing ourselves with the likes of Spurs and Arsenal. The squad building has been enormous and has cemented his status as a successful manager for us. Which is huge after the exploits he achieved as a player for us.
 
We are only 1 month into the season and some players haven't hit their heights yet.
We still have Rashford and Cavani to come back and then we should see a big improvement. ( I hope)
 
People seriously giving a feck what a player says about his manager in public?
Bilbo said:
So what we have here is a long running debate about something none of us have any real in depth knowledge on - ie our training sessions and quality of coaching. Many people are firmly entrenched in their views on the negative side of the fence. Now we have a player who has seen it all saying those words and they will just be dismissed as irrelevant to the argument?
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I don't need to watch our training sessions to conclude we're poor coached team. The same applies to players that perform badly in games, I don't care if they do well in training.
 
Borys said:
People seriously giving a feck what a player says about his manager in public?

I don't need to watch our training sessions to conclude we're poor coached team. The same applies to players that perform badly in games, I don't care if they do well in training.
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No offence, but I'd rather listen to Varane's take on training than yours.
 
Harold_Giles said:
No offence, but I'd rather listen to Varane's take on training than yours.
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Except Varane is never going to talk differently, as long as both he and Solskjaer are in the club.

It's a worthless view right now. If he says the same after one of them is gone, then it's worthwhile information.
 
Amir said:
Except Varane is never going to talk differently, as long as both he and Solskjaer are in the club.

It's a worthless view right now. If he says the same after one of them is gone, then it's worthwhile information.
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So is worth listening to? Somebody who isn’t there and relies on Martin Tyler to guide them through a game from home?
 
Amir said:
Except Varane is never going to talk differently, as long as both he and Solskjaer are in the club.

It's a worthless view right now. If he says the same after one of them is gone, then it's worthwhile information.
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If he thought the training was poor, he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.

I am sure If a player said something that fit your narrative of training being poor, you would listen to that?
 
sullydnl said:
Wayne Rooney says Man Utd training "more intense than Fergie" under "great manager" David Moyes.

Rio Ferdinand says the change in management at Old Trafford has "been good" and new boss David Moyes understands the mentality of managing a successful squad (and Phil Neville is a great addition to the coaching staff).

It's almost like players are going to say positive things when asked about their current manager and coaches.
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Cursed picture
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Borys said:
People seriously giving a feck what a player says about his manager in public?

I don't need to watch our training sessions to conclude we're poor coached team. The same applies to players that perform badly in games, I don't care if they do well in training.
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What do you think the reaction would be should a player come out with a critique of our coaching? Would it be considered irrelevant?
 
Harold_Giles said:
No offence, but I'd rather listen to Varane's take on training than yours.
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No offence but I think you're being very naive if you believe a player will tell you his real opinion on manager/club-related things. He might think it's a good training session, he might think it's shockingly bad - he'll always say the same things to public.
 
Borys said:
No offence but I think you're being very naive if you believe a player will tell you his real opinion on manager/club-related things. He might think it's a good training session, he might think it's shockingly bad - he'll always say the same things to public.
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If it were that bad the players would have him out on his ear ala Jose or Moyes. Even LVGs methods were hated by the vast majority of players and he was sent packing.
 
Bilbo said:
What do you think the reaction would be should a player come out with a critique of our coaching? Would it be considered irrelevant?
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I never pay much attention to what individual players say. Using those quotes as a proof that we are well coached team despite performances showing otherwise is absurd.
Player is expected to say nice things about the club. So is manager in press conference.
I'd pay more attention if more players criticized the training sessions but I've never seen that happen anywhere.

I think we're having decent results so far and progressing steadily (if slowly), so criticism would be out of place. But we're also very very lucky so far this season.
 
I can bet that when we win our first trophy it will be the same "individual brilliance" and "vibes" that did it, despite the manager, not because of :D

Unless someone on the telly tells them Ole is a good manager, it is never happening. Regardless of the fact that they also acknowledge how horrible the pundits are.
 
Borys said:
I never pay much attention to what individual players say. Using those quotes as a proof that we are well coached team despite performances showing otherwise is absurd.
Player is expected to say nice things about the club. So is manager in press conference.
I'd pay more attention if more players criticized the training sessions but I've never seen that happen anywhere.
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So, maybe you should pay attention to the results and data-proven improvement of the team in the last 30 months?
 
georgipep said:
So, maybe you should pay attention to the results and data-proven improvement of the team in the last 30 months?
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I do, and I do acknowledge that. But we're in a thread about coaching, so I guess I can state my opinion on this matter here. And my opinion is we've improved on the team and individuals, but not the play.
 
Borys said:
I do, and I do acknowledge that. But we're in a thread about coaching, so I guess I can state my opinion on this matter here. And my opinion is we've improved on the team and individuals, but not the play.
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So, you just ignore that coaching is in any way linked to the performance improvement?
 
It is strange that people ignore what Ole does as a coach. Even when other coaches come out and talk about how they copy his approach at times e.g., Dortmund against City in last season's Champions League.

How can people, genuinely, honestly, not think Ole makes adjustments to the team when he does so all the time? For example, in recent games United have suddenly started crossing the ball more than they ever did before. Do people think that has happened by accident? Or do you think maybe Ole might have suggested that he wanted to get the ball wide and get service into Cristiano?

Think about the adjustments in Bruno's game between Leeds and now. Do people genuinely think its an accident that Mason runs inside when Cristiano drifts to the left and that Bruno will often fill in the space Mason vacates, depending on where the ball is. Do people think our pressing shape is an accident and that Bruno just advances up next to Cristiano or ahead of him for fun?

I'm not saying Ole doesn't get things wrong. He obviously does. He's not God. However, the idea that its all vibes no tactics is just self-evidently incorrect.
 
#07 said:
I'm not saying Ole doesn't get things wrong. He obviously does. He's not God. However, the idea that its all vibes no tactics is just self-evidently incorrect.
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Managers dont last 3 years if they have no tactics. People forget that we have some of the best players in their position, if they think the manager is not good enough, they will make it known.

Clearly, if the players are playing for the man, they must believe in him to win them trophies.

Alot of people are overly critical, we need to see how this team develops in the next couple months.
 
Borys said:
No offence but I think you're being very naive if you believe a player will tell you his real opinion on manager/club-related things. He might think it's a good training session, he might think it's shockingly bad - he'll always say the same things to public.
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None taken mate.

I just feel a player of Varane's pedigree, a serial winner, would not answer in this way if he was genuinely unhappy with the training sessions. Not saying he'd openly criticize Ole and the staff, but just be a little more vague about them.
Just my take on things.
 
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