We are an awfully coached team

[NZT-One]

Mate, you'e contradicting yourself. Were Mou and LVG quality and established? How'd that work out? And while I would say that at times the football has been dull under Ole, it was fecking unwatchable under Jose. But I guess that's a subjective view.

And again - really, a double? Ask fans on here if they remember that season as a 'double-winning season'. i bet they wouldn't. Yes, technically we won two low priority trophies, but nobody is shouting from the rooftops about it. Put it this way - if Ole finished 4th and won those 2 cups this year I'd say he needs to go - that's how little they're worth.

They might have been established, but they surely weren't "in high demand" when we brought them in. When LVG left Bayern, fans and players celebrated (granted, very few thanked him for some things later on), then he took Netherlands to a good place in the World Cup by playing really shit stuff 95% of the time. Mourinho has been chased out by Real before, out of Chelsea as well. They were big names and I, too, had high hopes but lets not act as if they were the best of the best back then.

And even if - what is your plan? Sitting on your ass waiting for something to happen because you are afraid things could get bad again? Thats not really United DNA is it? Go for it, attack attack attack. We established a structure behind Ole - one that should make sure, mistakes are not repeated. I am not for sacking the manager now, far from it, but creating this haunted house for no reason is weird AF.

And about the "low priority trophies" - I am sure, had Ole been able to bring in the FA Cup or the EL, these wouldn't been called low priority. That sounds terribly like excuses in my ears.

 

[Nicoseth]

They might have been established, but they surely weren't "in high demand" when we brought them in. When LVG left Bayern, fans and players celebrated (granted, very few thanked him for some things later on), then he took Netherlands to a good place in the World Cup by playing really shit stuff 95% of the time. Mourinho has been chased out by Real before, out of Chelsea as well. They were big names and I, too, had high hopes but lets not act as if they were the best of the best back then.

And even if - what is your plan? Sitting on your ass waiting for something to happen because you are afraid things could get bad again? Thats not really United DNA is it? Go for it, attack attack attack. We established a structure behind Ole - one that should make sure, mistakes are not repeated. I am not for sacking the manager now, far from it, but creating this haunted house for no reason is weird AF.

And about the "low priority trophies" - I am sure, had Ole been able to bring in the FA Cup or the EL, these wouldn't been called low priority. That sounds terribly like excuses in my ears.

You're responding to a post I made in reply to another member. He/she said specifically that we should go for a quality, experienced coach instead of sticking with Ole. My reply was making the point that both Mou and LVG could be described as that but both failed miserably. I have seen far more progress under Ole than under either of those two. My point was that time will tell with Ole. He has to deliver this season, no doubt. I just don't see the logic in people calling for a new manager because they don't like Ole. It's september for Christ's sake.

 

[NZT-One]

You're responding to a post I made in reply to another member. He/she said specifically that we should go for a quality, experienced coach instead of sticking with Ole. My reply was making the point that both Mou and LVG could be described as that but both failed miserably. I have seen far more progress under Ole than under either of those two. My point was that time will tell with Ole. He has to deliver this season, no doubt. I just don't see the logic in people calling for a new manager because they don't like Ole. It's september for Christ's sake.

Well most of them call for the new manager for far longer ^^ But I see your point, the hyperbole is mostly exhausting but won't stop I guess. I think it is wonderful, that you are patient with Ole, but I can also see, why some people stopped that at some point down the road.

And genuine question: did you consider LVG and Jose as top coaches when they came here? Not only experienced, no question about that, but top coaches all in all, ability, prestige, experience, swag, whatever is needed for you to call someone a top coach.

 

[lex talionis]

The issue here is that this isn't the first time these players have let us down but here we are three years into a rebuild and still blaming defeats on players we knew to be unreliable. This is the issue with keeping deadwood or giving too many chances to unreliable players, you can never really move up a level as long as you have the likes of Fred, Lingard, Lindelof, Mata and Jones being one or two injuries/suspension away from playing key roles. We are just too soft on average players.

I agree with the deadwood retention criticism, and between if we had sold Fred, Lingard and VdB we would have had more than enough to bring in a proper CDM, a player who would have been in the position Lingard was in when he provided the assist at the Wankdorf.

That said, none of us here believed that Lingard was so poor of a footballer that even he would commit that kind of abomination. Had we escaped with a 1-1 draw it’s a pretty good bet we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

The real problem is that we’re taking a risk with Ole as manager, a risk we club supporters are too fatigued from eight years of frustration to being able to cope with. Before Ole went with two managers who were proven “best of breed” managers and we got burned by them. Point is, no manager is a sure thing. Even Ferguson was close to sack in his fourth of fifth year, even though he proved his genius with Aberdeen.

We all want the sure thing, but such men are few. You’d have to say Pep and Klopp are sure thing managers, but after that everyone else is a risk. Ole may have been too great a risk, but we have seen progress under Ole and we all know this is his make or break season. Should he fekk it up — and it’s way too early to render that verdict — he’ll be sacked.

 

[Blood Mage]

In 3 games out of 5 this season, we have been really poor. Can see this being a long hard season.

Tbf Ole tends to go on an unbelievable run when he hits rock bottom so we'll see what happens in the next few games. But yeah it's worrying that we had such a good transfer window and yet we've started this season similarly to how we started the last one, the only difference being that Chelsea and Liverpool have improved.

 

[United Hobbit]

Unfortunately Liverpool are on, as partner supports them

Wish we would start games like this.....

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

Liverpool's press is currently destroying Milan.

Every big team presses so, so, so much better than us - and they outwork us too. I really think those are our biggest issues.

A competent press (which we definitely don't have) creates so many transition attacking opportunities...not to mention stopping attacks before they happen.

 

[United Hobbit]

And look what Liverpool's positive tactics have got them. I know Salah fortunately had the penalty saved, but they could be 2 up already and their positive intent is what has got them in the position to get the penalty

Then there's us yesterday and our negative tactics

It's light and day compared to watching us. It's fecking sickening that it's Liverpool too

13 attempts, 6 on target already, how many did we have yesterday (I know the red card played a part but still....)

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

And look what Liverpool's positive tactics have got them. I know Salah fortunately had the penalty saved, but they could be 2 up already and their positive intent is what has got them in the position to get the penalty

Then there's us yesterday and our negative tactics

It's light and day compared to watching us. It's fecking sickening that it's Liverpool too

13 attempts, 6 on target already, how many did we have yesterday (I know the red card played a part but still....)

2 and 2

 

[United Hobbit]

2 and 2

Splendid! They've only been going 20 minutes as well....

 

[sullydnl]

And look what Liverpool's positive tactics have got them. I know Salah fortunately had the penalty saved, but they could be 2 up already and their positive intent is what has got them in the position to get the penalty

Then there's us yesterday and our negative tactics

It's light and day compared to watching us. It's fecking sickening that it's Liverpool too

13 attempts, 6 on target already, how many did we have yesterday (I know the red card played a part but still....)

Think we had two attempts in the first 30min, so were struggling in that regard even before the red.

Tbf to Solskjaer I don't think he was being at all negative before the red card. I just think we weren't coached well enough to get more out of whatever positive intent he had.

Other teams are drilled in terms of what to do on the ball, with pre-planned sequences and positional tactics in possession gone over until it's almost automatic for them to make those movements and get into those positions. Which inevitably means they're quicker and more effective on the ball, creating more with the same intent. We probably want to be just as attacking, we're just not as well coached. Which makes our play look more ponderous, improvational and reactive. And, with that, less effective.

 

[UnitedSofa]

And look what Liverpool's positive tactics have got them. I know Salah fortunately had the penalty saved, but they could be 2 up already and their positive intent is what has got them in the position to get the penalty

Then there's us yesterday and our negative tactics

It's light and day compared to watching us. It's fecking sickening that it's Liverpool too

13 attempts, 6 on target already, how many did we have yesterday (I know the red card played a part but still....)

Liverpool are also playing at home and on grass instead of an artificial pitch

 

[NZT-One]

I agree with the deadwood retention criticism, and between if we had sold Fred, Lingard and VdB we would have had more than enough to bring in a proper CDM, a player who would have been in the position Lingard was in when he provided the assist at the Wankdorf.

That said, none of us here believed that Lingard was so poor of a footballer that even he would commit that kind of abomination. Had we escaped with a 1-1 draw it’s a pretty good bet we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

The real problem is that we’re taking a risk with Ole as manager, a risk we club supporters are too fatigued from eight years of frustration to being able to cope with. Before Ole went with two managers who were proven “best of breed” managers and we got burned by them. Point is, no manager is a sure thing. Even Ferguson was close to sack in his fourth of fifth year, even though he proved his genius with Aberdeen.

We all want the sure thing, but such men are few. You’d have to say Pep and Klopp are sure thing managers, but after that everyone else is a risk. Ole may have been too great a risk, but we have seen progress under Ole and we all know this is his make or break season. Should he fekk it up — and it’s way too early to render that verdict — he’ll be sacked.

Do you really think that? A 1:1 where we had 2 shots on goal against Young Boys Bern? By completely stopping to play football after 30min? I am pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. I agree, it would have been easier to shrug of because "we got a red card and it was away from home" but the issues are what they are, not only known since yesterday but showcased once more.

I'll ignore this "best of breed" thingy... about LVG and Jose... just wow.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

United players receive significantly inferior coaching compared to the other three. It's undeniable. We desperately need someone better at the helm.

 

[talking robot]

I thought as much for some time but I think Ole is comfortable around younger less established coaches for now. If you look at the profile of coaches he has kept on or hired save for Phelan they are all at the start of their careers or they have never done it at the top level.

Another issue is that I think his style is too direct and I don't think he values possession centric issues like ball retention or using possession as a game management tool to take the sting out of a game or to reduce pressure. I don't think it's something we really practice which is shocking at this level.

Yeah I agree with you that it could all just be down to his priorities, and essentially not recognizing/seeing that there is an issue to be dealt with. My perspective is that I think the role of united manager is unique due to the footprint left by SAF, and that being a very good tactical manager isn't enough to guarantee success here. The duties and responsibilities of the united manager position extend beyond just getting the tactics right on match day (even if that is obviously also part of it). I think Ole is actually doing quite well in many respects: Man management, improved expectations and professionalism around the club, buying and selling (even if this year's selling left something to be desired), media presence, and handling board level incompetence in a politically savvy way (unlike, say, Mourinho). The results have stabilized for good reason.

However I also agree with so many that he's clearly tactically naive. His substitutions aren't right, the play is often too slow, we are too dependent on moments of individual brilliance, and Ole generally seems too risk averse in team selection and tactics. If the team doesn't evolve very quickly in this area, he will be out of a job. I do think a Queiroz type figure, perhaps brought in from the outside (to break the pattern of keeping everything "in house" and insular), could go a long way for him and the club. Ultimately though it would be on Solskjaer to recognize the need for that and implement it successfully. If he doesn't he'll probably end up paying a heavy cost.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

People on here really have short memories. Mourinho may have got more points in a season than Ole but he was equally miles off city and the football was dire most of the time - way worse than under Ole. As for winning 'a double' - the Carabao Cup and EL are hardly a double to be particularly proud of. Our football has been way more entertaining than under JM and look at the squad now compared to how Mou left it. Night and day. Time will of course decide the fate of Ole and last night was terrible, but as a fanbase we need to quit the reactionary BS and support the team and coaching staff. I am in full support of Ole but he has to deliver this season - no doubt. If he hasn't done that by the end of the season then it's time to talk about a change. Not when we're top of the league.

How can you in one hand dismiss those cups then say you’re in full support of OgS when he’s tried his hardest to win those cups [fielded our best team only to lose] & then failed?

 

[clarkydaz]

Well most of them call for the new manager for far longer ^^ But I see your point, the hyperbole is mostly exhausting but won't stop I guess. I think it is wonderful, that you are patient with Ole, but I can also see, why some people stopped that at some point down the road.

And genuine question: did you consider LVG and Jose as top coaches when they came here? Not only experienced, no question about that, but top coaches all in all, ability, prestige, experience, swag, whatever is needed for you to call someone a top coach.

Jose just won the premier League, how can you say he had no prestige and swag?

 

[Amir]

However I also agree with so many that he's clearly tactically naive. His substitutions aren't right, the play is often too slow, we are too dependent on moments of individual brilliance, and Ole generally seems too risk averse in team selection and tactics. If the team doesn't evolve very quickly in this area, he will be out of a job. I do think a Queiroz type figure, perhaps brought in from the outside (to break the pattern of keeping everything "in house" and insular), could go a long way for him and the club. Ultimately though it would be on Solskjaer to recognize the need for that and implement it successfully. If he doesn't he'll probably end up paying a heavy cost.

People keep talking about bringing in a Queiroz. But Carlos was successful with us not just because of what he was able to do, but also because of the person he worked for - SAF. We've seen his career before and after United, it was nowhere near as good. Just like the rest of Fergie's assistant. They were good and brought stuff to the table, but it wasn't going to be good enough if Fergie wasn't the figurehead.

And it's not like Fergie left everything to Queiroz. Yeah, the latter was in charge of training, but Fergie still managed the games. He decided the subs. An assistant can suggest different subs and different tactics, for instance, but at the end of the day it's the manager's decision. And if the manager is lacking, you'll probably end up with a similar result.

If Ole's game management isn't good, there's a limit to what an assistant can do. He can't replace him. He might limit the damage somwqhat, but at the end of the day - It will just be a way to mask the reality that the manager isn't good enough.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Look at liverpool. 3-2 up in injury time and 6 players in the Milan half, keeping the ball. If that was us we'd be deep in our half just ceding possession and hoping to head a ball out and 1-2 pass leading to a counter attack.

 

[lex talionis]

Do you really think that? A 1:1 where we had 2 shots on goal against Young Boys Bern? By completely stopping to play football after 30min? I am pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. I agree, it would have been easier to shrug of because "we got a red card and it was away from home" but the issues are what they are, not only known since yesterday but showcased once more.

I'll ignore this "best of breed" thingy... about LVG and Jose... just wow.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I never liked the idea of Van Gaal or Mourinho managing United. But we were all told their resumes spoke volumes about the glory they would bring back to United. Despite their resumes, both were a disaster.

Once we went down to 10 men, Ole decided to go entirely defensive to hang on to the lead. We see this all the time. It doesn’t always work out, but we do see this all the time. Had Ole gone for the second goal we might have put Young Boys away, but we might have also exposed our back line to numbers.

A manager who goes down 10 men and a 1-0 lead has a decision to make. It’s not daft to go defensive in that situation.

 

[dove]

Our entire coaching staff is honestly laughable. We have Ole whose best managerial attributes have nothing to do with tactics or coaching. He is a good man manager, smiles a lot, brings positivity but that's about it. He would probably make a decent assistant manager. Then we have 2 complete amateur assistants in Carrick and McKenna who don't seem to bring much to the table either. Our in-game management is terrible, we either make no subs when we desperately need them or make the worst imaginable ones. It's Ole's team, only 1-2 starters are from Jose's era and we still look no better than we did when he took over even though I think all of us would agree that our squad is much better now. If that's not the sign that we are being clearly handicapped by our coaching staff, I don't know what is.

 

[talking robot]

People keep talking about bringing in a Queiroz. But Carlos was successful with us not just because of what he was able to do, but also because of the person he worked for - SAF. We've seen his career before and after United, it was nowhere near as good. Just like the rest of Fergie's assistant. They were good and brought stuff to the table, but it wasn't going to be good enough if Fergie wasn't the figurehead.

And it's not like Fergie left everything to Queiroz. Yeah, the latter was in charge of training, but Fergie still managed the games. He decided the subs. An assistant can suggest different subs and different tactics, for instance, but at the end of the day it's the manager's decision. And if the manager is lacking, you'll probably end up with a similar result.

If Ole's game management isn't good, there's a limit to what an assistant can do. He can't replace him. He might limit the damage somwqhat, but at the end of the day - It will just be a way to mask the reality that the manager isn't good enough.

Those are all fair points.

 

[Revan]

And what did you expect from the last 3 seasons exactly? Some people, me included, would say that Ole overachieved last season. 2nd place with that squad? Outstanding. In his first full season he got us back in the CL. He has transformed our squad and outperformed any manager we have had since SAF. But sure, we lost a game tonight, so let's bin him. Ridiculous.

He has not outperformed Mourinho by any means, except being more likeable. In his two full seasons in charge, Mourinho sent us to UCL in both cases (he also had a worse team), finished second with more points than Ole, and won Europa and the League Cup trophy.

I think it is debatable that he has outperformed LVG. 2 UCL qualifications vs one is good, but we also won a trophy with LVG.

 

[Revan]

Sack Fergie sell Giggs.

Something never change and United fans moaning is one of them.

Keep Moyes, keep Smalling.

Some things never change indeed.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Liverpool's press is currently destroying Milan.

Every big team presses so, so, so much better than us - and they outwork us too. I really think those are our biggest issues.

A competent press (which we definitely don't have) creates so many transition attacking opportunities...not to mention stopping attacks before they happen.

You can forget about the press with Ronaldo in the team now.

We didn't press well before without him. We won't now either.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Jose just won the premier League, how can you say he had no prestige and swag?

He was sacked from Chelsea as they were close to the relegation zone the following season.

Signs were already there that he was done as a top level manager.

 

[Martialfc]

Anyone else still depressed from that game?

 

[Martialfc]

Our tactics are something along the lines of like “c’mon guys, you play for man United. Go enjoy yourself these are the best years of your life”. Honestly, the players look like they don’t know what they are doing!

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

I think when Pogba plays lazy it really screws up the flow of the team. He just does not seem to move out there vs watching the middies of City, Liverpool etc...

I know that is a small piece of the puzzle, but it is frustrating.

 

[croadyman]

The pattern is there for all to see except the most biased Ole fans. Against a low block, we struggle to create much. That is completely down to poor coaching when we consider the attacking players we have at our disposal.

This team is now well and truly Ole's. He needs to deliver a big silverware (FA cup/PL/CL) this season or he needs to go. If he lands at least one of those, keep him for another season and give him the midfielder as well, else bid him goodbye for good measure.

Where does this needs to win silverware this year to keep his job come from, nope just needs to secure that champions league money and those yankee leeches will be rejoicing in their vast Florida mansions as always

 

[croadyman]

One thing is for cetain, this is the best Utd squad post SAF, and probably better than the last few years of SAF's career here.
Its going to fecking suck not to get the best out of it the next few years.

Yeah that's the thing which is the most bloody frustrating

 

[Mainoldo]

Can sell a blank CD to the majority of you lot and you’d think Kanye produced it

 

[bosnian_red]

Yeah to be honest I think we're in that tier with PSG, but in a tougher league. Or Barca the last few years, Madrid after Zidane, Juve. Big clubs with excellent individuals and loads of money to spend, but not the coaching to match. A very good collection of individuals, coaching is not like the top 4 in Europe who both have the squads and the coaching now (Bayern, City, Chelsea and Liverpool). You hope that the individual players can sometimes lead you to success, but we are objectively not better teams on a game to game basis, though can win in any individual match.

It's something that would work for many leagues and keep us as a tough opponent, but not in the league coming up against Pep, Klopp and Tuchel with equally excellent squads.

 

[bosnian_red]

You can forget about the press with Ronaldo in the team now.

We didn't press well before without him. We won't now either.

It's not all about being able to press though. Pressing isn't the only way to play and be successful. City is far from the aggressive pressers they used to be, but they have balance throughout. Liverpool have balance. Chelsea have balance. Bayern have balance. They attack as a group and with a plan, and they defend as group too, and are organized. Sometimes they might be vulnerable on the break, but for United it's just so obvious how unbalanced we are against even mediocre sides.

 

[ExoduS]

Yeah to be honest I think we're in that tier with PSG, but in a tougher league. Or Barca the last few years, Madrid after Zidane, Juve. Big clubs with excellent individuals and loads of money to spend, but not the coaching to match. A very good collection of individuals, coaching is not like the top 4 in Europe who both have the squads and the coaching now (Bayern, City, Chelsea and Liverpool). You hope that the individual players can sometimes lead you to success, but we are objectively not better teams on a game to game basis, though can win in any individual match.

It's something that would work for many leagues and keep us as a tough opponent, but not in the league coming up against Pep, Klopp and Tuchel with equally excellent squads.

Yep - exactly this. We are one trick pony under Ole because we play like small time club with amazing talent. That's why we beat City numerous times, Liverpool, PSG etc... However when tactics are correctly set up and that is to press us, but not fully expose and allow counters, we often get beat.

Games against Wolves, Southampton and Young Boys were a total disaster this year. I saw no progress from last year. Maybe even slight regress due to Fred and Matic being sh1t and Bruno becoming even more offensive. We play like we don't have midfield.

 

[Jaae]

Attacking set-pieces
Defensive set-pieces
Pressing as a unit
Playing out from the back

Use your eyes. It's been nearly THREE YEARS and we've not improved in any of the above during that time.

Yes, we are an awfully coached team.

 

[Matthew1972]

Ronaldo scores and the whole team thinks the game is over. Then AWB is red carded and Ole decides to hide the team under a rock and hopes that they will stay dry that way from the rain. For good measure he removes his best players.

Just another example of Ole being Ole.

I can only imagine the hardware this team would win if they only had a coach with balls.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's not all about being able to press though. Pressing isn't the only way to play and be successful. City is far from the aggressive pressers they used to be, but they have balance throughout. Liverpool have balance. Chelsea have balance. Bayern have balance. They attack as a group and with a plan, and they defend as group too, and are organized. Sometimes they might be vulnerable on the break, but for United it's just so obvious how unbalanced we are against even mediocre sides.

I agree.

We aren't a synergized team. We're not a team that's more than the sum of their parts.

 

[stevoc]

I wouldn't want him gone but I can't speak for the majority though. Look I'm a Sporting fan so perhaps I have a different mindset since we don't win much. But I never want a manager sacked after he wins two trophies minor or major. I do understand United fans thinking differently.

The League cup and Europa League are major trophies, which a lot of people don't seem to realize. The Johnstone's paint trophy is a minor trophy.

Also Mourinho wasn't sacked after winning 2 trophies he was sacked 18 months later in the process pf tanking the club and fecking about playing midfielders in defence costing points as he was throwing a hissy fit because the club refused to buy all his transfer targets.

 

[Widow]

https://formation-y.com/en/league/premier_league.html

No one else in the top seven plays a 4231. The system is dated and we seem reluctant to try anything else.