The only thing really that worries me is how we couldn’t keep the ball whatsoever in the second half. Which then got me thinking about whether say, if City had 10 men vs YB would they be dominated so easily.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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You are missing the point. It's not 1 game. If you watched us the last 3 years, we constantly have subpar performances but many times we manage to escape with a win or at least a draw simply because of the quality of players we have (like against Wolves). We always look like conceding goals and often struggle to create anything. This way of playing will never win us any trophies but some people turn the blind eye to it and think that as long as we are able to scrape points being outplayed- it's fine, but it's just going to take us as far as it did the last couple of years. TOP 4 with no trophies. I don't understand why some people here keep focusing on 1 game. It's been happening for years now and our 4 year trophy draught is not a coincidence or lack of luck or whatever. We haven't been good enough and we still aren't, doesn't matter what players we sign.
Look, we all know this isn’t going to define the season, I expect that we will still qualify, probably have a decent cup run in the knockout competitions, and we will be top 4 come the end of the season. But, based on what I have seen over the past 3 years, I believe that is his limit (and obviously, you are quite welcome to disagree). So it’s a case of playing it safe vs gambling on someone else. The longer we wait, the harder it’s going to be to justify replacing him, as we’ll lose out on manager availability.
I'm still dissapointed. Sad to see Ole can't form a team that has any sort of control in football games. Even with a squad like ours. 10 down or not, but we could have at least tried to keep some possession at times with the player material we have. And it's nothing new either. Even in our other games this season we hardly ever looked totally in control.
We still have quite a lot of that. One assisted the winning goal for the opponents yesterday.
I'm not so sure, they are always whispering to eachother and confering when the camera pans to the coaching staff and look quite engaged on whats happening. Chances are just as much that they are just too novice (bar Phelan) on the coaching staff, and give out naive advice or suboptimal suggestions.
Very good post. Very well formulated and a very good point, that some people seem to ignore. It isn't a law of nature, that we have to duplicate the mistakes done in the past. Switching a manager doesn't have to be such a cataclysmic event, that sets everything back to square one. Sure, it can absolutely happen but it is close to worst possible scenario and that is certainly just as unlikely as the very best thinkable outcome like we have seen it with Tuchel in Chelsea. All in all, I am still behind the manager because he is putting the bar pretty high overall for me. But I would also say, that the club would make a mistake if he is not well prepared for a situation where a switch might be needed.
(on a more fantastical tone: heck for me Ole can stay where he is until eternity, if his effects are so positive, if we find Roles for Carrick, Fletcher, seemingly Mata and Grant, why not for Ole as well. )
I agree with that statement, I would adjust it though because with one adjustment, it creates way less resistance while staying correct nonetheless: switch badly coached with not as good coached as some of our competitors.
Has Ole really been a better manager than Mourinho? Really? What he have to show for it? I know we like to shit on Mourinho because he was toxic and I agree with that statement, but as far as results, Mourinho has been far better than Ole, let's be fair. He won us a double (the only trophy that we were missing and completed our trophy haul) and he achieved second place with a much worse squad and higher points total. Pretty sure he would have won the league if he had this squad last year. So what has Ole done to deserve this credit that he has been better than Mou? He smiles a lot during press conferences? Give me a break. At best you could say he has been better than van Gaal (a has been) and Moyes (who never deserved to be a United manager in the first place) which are both bottom of the barrell in terms of appointments. Not really that much of an accomplishment.
No Ole agenda but it's a result business. If he goes out of the CL, can't see how he recovers from that.
How you think people like carrick walked into the job. He is one constant in 3-4 management failures. But he is still there in the dugout. Guess who will snap him up in case he loses the job tomorrow. Also, have you noticed how our set pieces improved since that chelsea coach? The club needs to be a bit more ruthless regarding who gets the job. Thats why clubs like chelsea dont go 10 years without a major trophy. Its not like we don't spend you know?
You have inside knowledge?
I’d say a team that’s done 3rd and 2nd place in the EPL, made semis and finals, and gone on the longest unbeaten streak, is certainly not badly coached.
Are they merely good and therefore not good enough for an elite club? Possibly. Like I’ve said, it’s the ridiculous hyperbole I react to. We clearly don’t have bad or mediocre coaches. Football is highly competitive and you don’t see consistent progress without good coaches.
I’d be completely fine with that. He’s done a pretty good job with recruitment, but he’s never a top coach.
People on this forum think I hate the guy, but he’s done a good job at building a squad. We just need a proper coach now. Do people think he is going to all of a sudden figure it out? We have had 3 years of him. We know what he offers, and sadly it’s not enough to challenge for titles, so move him upstairs.
Imagine if Ole’s contract situation hadn’t been sorted already. The insecurity among the players probably would’ve made us lose the game 6-1 instead.
Incredible contract renewal in hindsight then
Definitely. And had Pogba’s situation been sorted he would already have been on 18 assists in the PL!
Good post. There are always excuses for Ole. I understand the simpathy due to the player past and achievements at the club but he's a poor manager with a mediocre historial. Some of the tactical decisions are baffling and he keeps being outwitted by opposing managers. He's just riding the coattails of the players. The performance was embarrassing. United won't win the League or the CL with Ole. No chance.
An excellent post. But let’s be sure what it is that’s being debated here.
Are we debating whether Ole is primarily responsible for last night’s defeat? Or whether he’s capable of managing United to its next PL or CL trophy?
If it’s the former, we were moments away from a 1-1 draw most of us would have taken under the circumstances. Two players lost their head and we lost the game. Bringing on Lingard was a mistake, I completely agree, but who among us looks at Lingard as a footballer who is likely to concede the match winner in stoppage time? Not many. As ridiculous as Lingard is as a player who craves fame above all else (at least well out of proportion to his ability), no one would have suspected that he’d make that colossal of a mistake.
If it’s the latter, I share the same concerns many have expressed here. But it’s just too easy to have a go at Ole over a genuine concern after an incident in which two players who should have known better put in shambolic performances.
Agree, mate! we need to keep improving. Last night was a shit-show, but I think we're on the right track.
Exactly. He may continue to get us top 4 but not because of his talent but rather because of player talent . To secure a trophy, you need a better plan or coach or whatever you call it.
People say we lost because of a red yesterday. Man , we were crap even before red. As usual, we got bailed out by our brilliant individual play. I have no issues in losing a match but show something ffs. Red or not, against YBs 45 mins parking the bus when you have Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba,Sancho is criminal. Should just be sacked just for that.
Main problem is our passing game. It's poor and hasn't improved since Ole arrived.
Yeah an individual mistake ultimately cost us last night but the inability to just string passes together to take the sting out of it was the real problem.
I see a lot saying Ole is old fashioned and football has moved on. Nothing to do with that. Not keeping the ball leads to bad results but that was the case 10 years ago. It was the case 20 years ago. In any era you have to be able to pass and move.
Yeah an individual mistake ultimately cost us last night but the inability to just string passes together to take the sting out of it was the real problem.
I see a lot saying Ole is old fashioned and football has moved on. Nothing to do with that. Not keeping the ball leads to bad results but that was the case 10 years ago. It was the case 20 years ago. In any era you have to be able to pass and move.
all I know they won't be "cowards" parking the bus.
We are.
I just hope CR finally makes clear for everyone that Ole is a "just pick 11 players" nothing manager.
If he starts a civil war in the dressing room, so be it. He already was instrumental in bringing down Pellegrini and Benitez during his Real days.
Imagine this fine squad (our best since 12-13, and probably better) managed by the likes of Tuchel or Nagelsmann. PL title + UCL semis guaranteed.
I just hope CR finally makes clear for everyone that Ole is a "just pick 11 players" nothing manager.
If he starts a civil war in the dressing room, so be it. He already was instrumental in bringing down Pellegrini and Benitez during his Real days.
Imagine this fine squad (our best since 12-13, and probably better) managed by the likes of Tuchel or Nagelsmann. PL title + UCL semis guaranteed.
I just hope one day soon we get a proper coach in to manage these exceptional group of players. Ole is not that guy. Him as Director of Football on the other hand would suit him down to the ground.
Ole needs his Carlos Queiroz. Of course, the alternative would be to get a head coach in an arrangement similar to what Tuschel does for Chelsea but I don't think that's the way they wanna do things at United. So something similar would be to have Ole's strengths, which is man management and squad building, being supplemented by someone who has good ideas on how to play on the field and can implement them.
He's coaching as if it's 2001 and he thinks he's SAF. Times have changed and soccer tactics have evolved. What worked when SAF coached Ole doesn't work now. Just look at Mourinho's fall to see evidence of this. If SAF still was manager, he would have evolved.. but Ole's managerial tactics are stuck in the past. He has no new ideas and has not learned anything from modern coaches. He's doomed to fail, just doesn't have it in him.
No.
I'm a big fan of Queiroz's work with us, but looking at what he's done before and after United - or what Fergie's other assistants did after United - is a great reminder that while they supplemented what we had, it worked because they were a cog in Alex Ferguson's club. It worked because they worked for Fergie.
Fergie might not have been the best football tactician in the world, but he was no slouch. If your manager isn't good enough in the core of the game, you can't get away from that no matter who you hire to help him.
Your assistant would not be the one making subs for you. And if you just did everything he suggested, then why are you the manager?
For once there is someone here who totally agrees and thinks the way I do. I have watched football for a long long time and I for one thinks that this group of players have no idea what their position is. They keep changing every match and they get lost every time. People seem to think that if we brought good players, it will all work out but that's not it, is it? We need to work hard in training to put the pieces where they belong. We need put players in a positions and train them to work around the defensive shape but what does Ole do. He does general training and one the day he picks the team he puts players based on how they trained physically but has no idea how good they are tactically. For example, let us talk about Pogba.. one day he plays a deeper role in a pivot and the next he's a winger but in actuality he's not good in either positions. We brought Sancho in because he's the best damn right winger available but what does Ole do, he plays him on the left and plays Greenwood on the right. There is no pattern of play or smooth transition because nobody in this team has any idea of their position and slots they need to be in and cover. This is just a team that runs around and passes the ball every time by looking up and finding someone which is too slow and easy for the opponents to read. For heaven's sake Ole needs to make up his mind and at least play 80% of the team together in the same position all the time or else stop asking for too much from players because I've had enough. Even Championship teams play smoother football than we do. We have a wealth of talent who are clueless because of the way they are play week in week out. I agree that they are all professionals and these days players are more versatile to the positions and will cover for one another but that is not how it works on the long run and if they do not know their place, they will definitely not learn the traits of their colleagues let alone play around the defense.
De Gea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Mctominay
Bruno Pogba
Sancho Ronaldo/Greenwood Martial/Rashford
Play this team week in week out and they'll all learn a thing or two about the runs people will make and the things one needs to do to move the ball up field. Or keep doing the same shit over and over again and ultimately get sacked because we might win many due to individual abilities but we won't win the big ones because bigger teams play a certain way and they know what exactly to do.
People on here really have short memories. Mourinho may have got more points in a season than Ole but he was equally miles off city and the football was dire most of the time - way worse than under Ole. As for winning 'a double' - the Carabao Cup and EL are hardly a double to be particularly proud of. Our football has been way more entertaining than under JM and look at the squad now compared to how Mou left it. Night and day. Time will of course decide the fate of Ole and last night was terrible, but as a fanbase we need to quit the reactionary BS and support the team and coaching staff. I am in full support of Ole but he has to deliver this season - no doubt. If he hasn't done that by the end of the season then it's time to talk about a change. Not when we're top of the league.
The issue here is that this isn't the first time these players have let us down but here we are three years into a rebuild and still blaming defeats on players we knew to be unreliable. This is the issue with keeping deadwood or giving too many chances to unreliable players, you can never really move up a level as long as you have the likes of Fred, Lingard, Lindelof, Mata and Jones being one or two injuries/suspension away from playing key roles. We are just too soft on average players.
Where does one even begin? We struggle to hold on to the ball at the best of times so no way were we going to do it successfully even against Young Boys. Is this coaching or player style/quality or both? Bruno is not good at retaining possession in tight spaces, Pogba passes but does not move, Fred is ... , presumably Donny can but that's based on faith. At the same time, it does seem that we aren't coached to move around the pitch in units, attempting to control the game wherever the ball ends up.
Rarely do we retain possession when pressed high up the pitch, even against weaker sides. The only time we have control higher up the pitch is when teams decide that they're okay with us doing our useless three-man kick-arounds near the edge of the box on either flank, knowing fully well that no one is going to make a third man run and that the ball will go backwards (Fine, Bruno and Pogba have keyed in on that difficult to execute through-ball that should yield success soon and possibly create space on the edge of the box when teams start to worry).
But maybe we don't need control, we just need to be efficient at getting the ball to the forwards and pray to the gods that one of them does something clever (In 35 minutes of 11 vs 11, it took an absolutely world class, once-in-a-season, defense-splitting, outside of the foot, no-way-is-he-going-to-try-that pass for us to create a chance against Young Boys). Well, we'd better then be willing to run our socks off and press high and as a team (admittedly, once in a while a forward applies pressure, Fred nicks the ball, and we catch teams off balance but it's just not consistent enough). Even in the low-block, when defending deep because we're a man down or because we've decided that's the best way to play City, we don't try to force errors. It's as though we're just hoping the other team loses the ball.
Many posters have said this time over: Ole and his staff set us up so that the brilliance of our forwards wins the day. Maybe at some point in the past this might have sufficed but on the evidence so far, that's no longer enough to win the league or advance far in the champions league.
Rarely do we retain possession when pressed high up the pitch, even against weaker sides. The only time we have control higher up the pitch is when teams decide that they're okay with us doing our useless three-man kick-arounds near the edge of the box on either flank, knowing fully well that no one is going to make a third man run and that the ball will go backwards (Fine, Bruno and Pogba have keyed in on that difficult to execute through-ball that should yield success soon and possibly create space on the edge of the box when teams start to worry).
But maybe we don't need control, we just need to be efficient at getting the ball to the forwards and pray to the gods that one of them does something clever (In 35 minutes of 11 vs 11, it took an absolutely world class, once-in-a-season, defense-splitting, outside of the foot, no-way-is-he-going-to-try-that pass for us to create a chance against Young Boys). Well, we'd better then be willing to run our socks off and press high and as a team (admittedly, once in a while a forward applies pressure, Fred nicks the ball, and we catch teams off balance but it's just not consistent enough). Even in the low-block, when defending deep because we're a man down or because we've decided that's the best way to play City, we don't try to force errors. It's as though we're just hoping the other team loses the ball.
Many posters have said this time over: Ole and his staff set us up so that the brilliance of our forwards wins the day. Maybe at some point in the past this might have sufficed but on the evidence so far, that's no longer enough to win the league or advance far in the champions league.
Nonsense. It's two trophies. What are you proud of at the moment? More entertaining than Mourinho? Both football styles are as entertaining as watching paint dry and Ole has considerably better players. Look Mourinho's tenure was terrible but so is Ole's. United needs a quality established manager. Ole is neither.
You can't help but wonder what Ole is trying to achieve. I can't figure out if he's trying to get them to play methodically through the middle, but failing, or if he just isn't trying at all. Neither really seems to make sense to me.
Mate, you'e contradicting yourself. Were Mou and LVG quality and established? How'd that work out? And while I would say that at times the football has been dull under Ole, it was fecking unwatchable under Jose. But I guess that's a subjective view.
And again - really, a double? Ask fans on here if they remember that season as a 'double-winning season'. i bet they wouldn't. Yes, technically we won two low priority trophies, but nobody is shouting from the rooftops about it. Put it this way - if Ole finished 4th and won those 2 cups this year I'd say he needs to go - that's how little they're worth.
I don't get why Ole doesn't bring in a Carlos Queiroz type assistant who can help bridge the gap tactically between him and the top managers elsewhere in the league. Fergie was all around a great manager, but also benefited greatly from bringing an expert tactician on board to complement to his skill set. I don't see why Ole couldn't do the same thing. Who on the current coaching staff would have the most to lose from a move like that? Phelan I suppose?
Guarantee you if Ole/United were to win the carabao cup or the EL, people would still complain.
The poster has a point
I thought as much for some time but I think Ole is comfortable around younger less established coaches for now. If you look at the profile of coaches he has kept on or hired save for Phelan they are all at the start of their careers or they have never done it at the top level.
Another issue is that I think his style is too direct and I don't think he values possession centric issues like ball retention or using possession as a game management tool to take the sting out of a game or to reduce pressure. I don't think it's something we really practice which is shocking at this level.
No contradiction. When both were hired they weren't quality, just established managers. I was against hiring Mourinho. Never liked him.
If Ole won two cups and achieved CL I wouldn't want him fired. I'd give time to build from there. Problem is that United won't win anything with him, that's why I want him gone. No evolution whatsoever with him. Do you think United is close to winning the League or the CL with him? No chance.
I wouldn't want him gone but I can't speak for the majority though. Look I'm a Sporting fan so perhaps I have a different mindset since we don't win much. But I never want a manager sacked after he wins two trophies minor or major. I do understand United fans thinking differently.