[Dobbs]

This goes in circles. I was pointing out how there is an emphasis on form rather than end product. If that is the case, Martial is not performing well either but the backlash is not even half as bad. I understand why it isn't too an extent but the rest of it can only be attributed to this on going belief of Rooney being some evil devil paying journalists and enjoying his contract with must play clauses.

The only reason I would drop Martial is because he is 20 and it would drive him on. As a youngster it is important to drop players when they don't perform well so they understand a spot is not guaranteed. If Martial was an established player I would see through the bad form. All this is unrelated though.

It is related because yourself and others are putting crazy emphasis on just a three game contribution. You talk about it as if it's a six month period of sustained form.

That's why I brought up Martial as you seem to want him dropped despite him performing all least season. Where as Rooney contributing in three games keeps him in the team.

So if Rooney doesn't contribute with an assist or goal for the next three games would you drop him?

 

[Lawman]

Lay down the law @Lawman

Yeah I know I have never heard someone speak so much shite with so much authority in my life as Murphy. Now as for Rooney I am a massive fan but bloody hell and there is no denying it his form over last season (granted the odd game he done well) and the start of this season has been nothing short of dreadful. It's turned from a slump to the normal it's been that long. He needs dropped and hopefully that will give him a jolt back into form.

 

[manunited1919]

It is related because yourself and others are putting crazy emphasis on just a three game contribution. You talk about it as if it's a six month period of sustained form.

That's why I brought up Martial as you seem to want him dropped despite him performing all least season. Where as Rooney contributing in three games keeps him in the team.

So if Rooney doesn't contribute with an assist or goal for the next three games would you drop him?

The thing is, the argument will get shifted once again so that there is always an excuse for Rooney not to be dropped. He is sacrificing for the team. That is not his best position. He is not getting service. He drops deep because the midfield is not performing. Zlatan has no movement in front of him. You have to look at form over a 2 month period, or a 4 year period (whichever is most convenient). You never drop the captain when you're losing (or winning, etc).

He has no friends in the media and no special favors to him, but boy do those arguments shift quickly. At least Mourinho already said clearly from the outset that he is no midfielder.

 

[shamans]

It is related because yourself and others are putting crazy emphasis on just a three game contribution. You talk about it as if it's a six month period of sustained form.

That's why I brought up Martial as you seem to want him dropped despite him performing all least season. Where as Rooney contributing in three games keeps him in the team.

So if Rooney doesn't contribute with an assist or goal for the next three games would you drop him?

No. The only reason it is brought up is to compare the last three games in isolation. Much of the Rooney hate comes from "it doesn't matter how he performed. Look at how he is right now". The only reason I bring up Martial is to isolate these last 3 games. Rooney has been performing better than Martial but somehow people believe we'd be better off without him.

So to emphasize what I mean, so far any logic I have read that advocates dropping Rooney would also apply to Martial, Zlatan and maybe even Mata which is ridiculous as those players don't really deserve to be dropped (apart from Martial. I think a drop for him would do him well due to his young age).

The thing is, the argument will get shifted once again so that there is always an excuse for Rooney not to be dropped. He is sacrificing for the team. That is not his best position. He is not getting service. He drops deep because the midfield is not performing. Zlatan has no movement in front of him. You have to look at form over a 2 month period, or a 4 year period (whichever is most convenient). You never drop the captain when you're losing (or winning, etc).

He has no friends in the media and no special favors to him, but boy do those arguments shift quickly. At least Mourinho already said clearly from the outset that he is no midfielder.

This is exactly why there is a need for these "excuses". If it's any other player who is trusted by the manager or praised by experts then it's all good but in Rooney's case he gets special favors and has paid journalists. Relying on conspiracy theories won't go well with most.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

A sole striker needs a good AM that can position himself. Having a wooden log at his back will seriously hamper his game.

Unless you expect him to solo dribble 5 players and score ala messi

Rooney doesn't control what Ibra does when he has the ball.

 

[manunited1919]

This is exactly why there is a need for these "excuses". If it's any other player who is trusted by the manager or praised by experts then it's all good but in Rooney's case he gets special favors and has paid journalists. Relying on conspiracy theories won't go well with most.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy or that there are paid journalists.
I'm only saying he does receive special and favorable treatment from the media. In almost every single game I've watched, commentators seem to go out of their way to praise normal things he does, and completely ignore his failings. Other United players do not get the same treatment from media. This is what I have observed through the years, and even now continue to observe. I know, you will say you want proof, which I obviously can't provide. But I am sure most United fans have also noted that certain favoritism from the media toward Rooney. It's there for all to see.

Now, I'm not saying he is paying off the media, nor that there's a conspiracy. I don't know the reason nor do I care to speculate.

 

[Sky1981]

Rooney doesn't control what Ibra does when he has the ball.

Except that it's his job to give ibra the ball

 

[clarkydaz]

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy or that there are paid journalists.
I'm only saying he does receive special and favorable treatment from the media. In almost every single game I've watched, commentators seem to go out of their way to praise normal things he does, and completely ignore his failings. Other United players do not get the same treatment from media. This is what I have observed through the years, and even now continue to observe. I know, you will say you want proof, which I obviously can't provide. But I am sure most United fans have also noted that certain favoritism from the media toward Rooney. It's there for all to see.

When Zlatan scored against Southampton, after the game the interviewer made a point just how good Rooney's cross was, Zlatan then done the obligatory 'yes amazing, he's our leader' etc. Same with Rashford against Hull. When Rooney scores he doesn't get asked about who assisted

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Except that it's his job to give ibra the ball

And he does when he can. Doesn't help that Ibra always drops off into the same space as Rooney, though.

 

[shamans]

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy or that there are paid journalists.
I'm only saying he does receive special and favorable treatment from the media. In almost every single game I've watched, commentators seem to go out of their way to praise normal things he does, and completely ignore his failings. Other United players do not get the same treatment from media. This is what I have observed through the years, and even now continue to observe. I know, you will say you want proof, which I obviously can't provide. But I am sure most United fans have also noted that certain favoritism from the media toward Rooney. It's there for all to see.

Now, I'm not saying he is paying off the media, nor that there's a conspiracy. I don't know the reason nor do I care to speculate.

Well see if there's no proof I am just going to believe it's a rumor that has been perpetuated by fans and those who don't see Rooney favorably. I have not seen any of this "special treatment" unless you are referring to the ridiculous hype and pressure the media has always surrounded him by.

 

[wr8_utd]

Except that it's his job to give ibra the ball

When he gives Ibra the ball people on here say he was better off giving it to someone else

 

[Gazza]

When he gives Ibra the ball people on here say he was better off giving it to someone else

People actually want what is best for MUFC, so no confusion there. You take these things so personal, like Rooney is a mate of yours, trust me most people in this thread post their opinions out of concern for the way the team is heading. There's no conspiracy theory except the ones you and Nick/shamans come up with to explain why Dans want to criticize Rooney.

 

[stevoc]

People actually want what is best for MUFC, so no confusion there. You take these things so personal, like Rooney is a mate of yours, trust me most people in this thread post their opinions out of concern for the way the team is heading. There's no conspiracy theory except the ones you and Nick/shamans come up with to explain why Dans want to criticize Rooney.

Theres conspiracy theories galore in this thread.

 

[shamans]

People actually want what is best for MUFC, so no confusion there. You take these things so personal, like Rooney is a mate of yours, trust me most people in this thread post their opinions out of concern for the way the team is heading. There's no conspiracy theory except the ones you and Nick/shamans come up with to explain why Dans want to criticize Rooney.

I would say paying journalists, having friends in the media, having power at the club and a clause in your contract that forces you play is as conspiring as the theories get.

And whether people want that or not is not mutually exclusive with Rooney hate. I firmly believe there are people on here that can't wait to see him fail yet again so it becomes widespread knowledge that he is a terrible player. Furthermore, there are also some that wish this upon him ever since the contract negotiations.

 

[manunited1919]

Well see if there's no proof I am just going to believe it's a rumor that has been perpetuated by fans and those who don't see Rooney favorably. I have not seen any of this "special treatment" unless you are referring to the ridiculous hype and pressure the media has always surrounded him by.

We could make a separate thread of all the instances when media favors Rooney, and you would watch it grow week after week, match after match. People would be very specific, I am sure. But even then I am also sure you would refuse to see what everyone else plainly sees, and you would want to refute each and every post in such a thread.

 

[shamans]

We could make a separate thread of all the instances when media favors Rooney, and you would watch it grow week after week, match after match. People would be very specific, I am sure. But even then I am also sure you would refuse to see what everyone else plainly sees, and you would want to refute each and every post in such a thread.

And we could make one in which the Media has been unfair to Rooney blowing out of proportion his antics over the years and you would do the same justifying it. What's your point?

 

[prath92]

We could make a separate thread of all the instances when media favors Rooney, and you would watch it grow week after week, match after match. People would be very specific, I am sure. But even then I am also sure you would refuse to see what everyone else plainly sees, and you would want to refute each and every post in such a thread.

It's not media favouring Rooney the player. It's them favouring Rooney the English player. Like every English player gets praises and rarely gets any criticism. Stones for instance has already been hailed as the best defender ever.

 

[jojose]

I don't agree with much of this but oddest part to me is how you say you think mikhi would have had the same assists and goals.

What if I say "oh zlatan has been good but you know despite his goals his movement is a bit slow at times. Im sure if rashford was playing he'd have the same goals and better movement"

You see it doesn't just work on "what you think". There is always ifs and buts when it comes to Rooney. Also they can both play. We have many options. If you're worried about overall play then what about marital who has been dreadful so far.

Fact is Rooney has been one of our better players so far and the manager sees that.

Obviousley. Its hypothetical. This is an opinion forum and I have given mine. Mikitaryan in for Rooney wouldn't weaken the team. IMHO, he's quicker, more skillfull, can beat a man, can pick a pass and can receive the ball whilst being marked. With those attributes IMHO, Mikitaryan in for Rooney would improve us.

That part of my post is pure opinion. I have highlighted my argument why I believe it.

The rest of my post however is absolute fact.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

You are wrong. Nobody has the ability to score the goals Rooney has in the manner in which Rooney did.

The Fact is, Rooney scored goals and England qualified when Rooney doesn't score, England don't qualify. Harry Kane doesn't score...

The sarcasm was lost there somewhere. Not a worry, I was replying about the post you quoted.

When he gives Ibra the ball people on here say he was better off giving it to someone else

Haha, well said.

If he gives it to Pogba, should have given it to Ibra.
If he plays well but doesn't score, should have scored, hes shite.
If he plays decent enough, scores and assists, pages and pages of OTT micro-arguments about him not playing well. Therefore, drop him.
He's in form and playing playing well now, eventually he'll be shite so we better drop him to save ourselves down the track.
We literally couldn't have won anymore points so far, nonsense we would have scored more if other people were playing instead of Rooney.

Spin the wheel, where would you like the thread to go today?

I don't agree with much of this but oddest part to me is how you say you think mikhi would have had the same assists and goals.

Yes I also thought a lot of it was the usual poor and unnecessary negative spin to keep this argument that nobody really needs to have alive. Mhki will learn pretty quickly that the chance he had where he could have stood up the player and let him go by will come along quickly and that in my opinion is a big tell of somebody who is not used to playing in England. In England when somebody comes at you - you know you can stand them up and they'll go right by. It kind of reminds me of that Adnan goal against Villa last year. On the switch, turned it back inside and shot. Mkhi will know that for next time. Also not much was said about his (what I thought was) almost identical shot to that Rooney had against Bornemouth. Cut across and hit a ball-return style shot that the keeper picked up. Apparently we're supposed to rinse players for trying their luck and the shot being poor, you know the precedent set by this thread about "come on it was a terrible shot". But there you go?

 

[nick2004]

You don't have a problem with a manager saying "who am I to tell Wayne Rooney where to play"?

It's the truth. Fifty years from now, people will mention Rooney and his records. Nobody will remember Big Sam.

 

[Pexbo]

It's the truth. Fifty years from now, people will mention Rooney and his records. Nobody will remember Big Sam.

So Wayne Rooney is so established that it's Wayne Rooney + 10 and tactics no longer matter?

 

[Adisa]

It's the truth. Fifty years from now, people will mention Rooney and his records. Nobody will remember Big Sam.

Might as well play in goal then.

 

[nick2004]

Might as well play in goal then.

That wouldn't be very intelligent. And I'm sure that both Rooney and big Sam are very intelligent or they wouldn't be making millions...

 

[Pexbo]

That wouldn't be very intelligent. And I'm sure that both Rooney and big Sam are very intelligent or they wouldn't be making millions...

That's not really how the world works.

 

[nick2004]

So Wayne Rooney is so established that it's Wayne Rooney + 10 and tactics no longer matter?

Rooney had a free role and the team won!

It's not complicated or strange.

 

[nick2004]

In the past two years we had a lot of people in this forum who were absolutely certain that if Kane replaced Rooney as striker he'd score shitloads.

It's didn't happen, did it?

Perhaps scoring isn't easy, even when playing against Iceland.

 

[Pexbo]

Rooney had a free role and the team won!

It's not complicated or strange.

Not really the whole story is it?

England and Rooney were tumescent til consonants got sent off and even after created little. Rooney spent his free role between his own centre backs actively avoiding any pressure and it took a Lallana goal with no hand from Rooney in the very last seconds of added-added time to score.


It's bizarre how you continue to make excuses for him when he's clearly awful.

 

[Burrow]

Just rewatched the game. As someone who really, really dont want Rooney to start any more games until he's deserved it, he was not bad despite the impression I got when watching the game for the first time.

The problem is that he wasnt good either. He was a bystander, or in the very best case someone who had no influence on the game what so ever bar the last minute of the game. I think that is what really irks me as well, because we all are so sure that any other player we have available in his position would influence the game more than the current Rooney.

I was under the impression that he was awful when I was watching it, not knowing the outcome of the game, but it turns out he was just 'meh'. And I really dont think we should be satisfied with that level from our captain.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Just rewatched the game. As someone who really, really dont want Rooney to start any more games until he's deserved it, he was not bad despite the impression I got when watching the game for the first time.

It is actually something I got to do a lot more of in the last two years. Watch less live footy and watch more on video footy. But what an absolutely abhorrent time in the clubs history for that, I think that is probably where my stance on Rooney goes against the grain of this thread. Loads of "hes shite lads" comments and then I watch the game closely and just see a perfectly competent performance.

I genuinely think there is something in the psyche of that.

 

[Dobbs]

And he does when he can. Doesn't help that Ibra always drops off into the same space as Rooney, though.

Blaming other players is the inevitable next stage of the Rooney defense but I'm surprised we've already reached that point. Three games in.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Just rewatched the game. As someone who really, really dont want Rooney to start any more games until he's deserved it, he was not bad despite the impression I got when watching the game for the first time.

The problem is that he wasnt good either. He was a bystander, or in the very best case someone who had no influence on the game what so ever bar the last minute of the game. I think that is what really irks me as well, because we all are so sure that any other player we have available in his position would influence the game more than the current Rooney.

I was under the impression that he was awful when I was watching it, not knowing the outcome of the game, but it turns out he was just 'meh'. And I really dont think we should be satisfied with that level from our captain.

It depends what you think the level of bad is though doesn't it? I mean yeah he fairly accurate with the passes he managed, but none of them were anything above average, apart from the Walcott pass. The bad points to me was his quite frankly horrible positional play, that stood out by a mile. He wasn't helping the team break down Slovakia by standing in Danny Rose's position or 5 yards infront of Stones and Cahill. He should have been higher up the pitch near Kane receiving the ball and playmaking from there like he used too, but clearly now he feels he is better to get the ball very deep and try and knock long passes from there. That's not a good sign.

The difference is Scholes/Schweinsteiger/Pirlo/Alonso have that picture in their brain, they know where there marker is and where everybody is on the pitch, and position/adjust their bodies to suit. Rooney cannot do that. His brain only engages once he's taken a touch, but usually by that time he's already closed down and being tackled.

If people really think that beating a 10 man Slovakia who defended all game 1-0 is an acceptable result, it really isn't. Lucky for Sam that was his first game as he got the benefit of doubt, if it was Hodgson he would have been massacred in the press.

 

[nick2004]

Not really the whole story is it?

England and Rooney were tumescent til consonants got sent off and even after created little. Rooney spent his free role between his own centre backs actively avoiding any pressure and it took a Lallana goal with no hand from Rooney in the very last seconds of added-added time to score.


It's bizarre how you continue to make excuses for him when he's clearly awful.

It's not the whole story. In the Euros, Rooney didn't start a game. Do you remember what happened? Did England play well? Did they score? Did they win?

England's problem isn't Rooney. England's problem is that the other players are WORSE than Rooney!

 

[Burrow]

It depends what you think the level of bad is though doesn't it? I mean yeah he fairly accurate with the passes he managed, but none of them were anything above average, apart from the Walcott pass. The bad points to me was his quite frankly horrible positional play, that stood out by a mile. He wasn't helping the team break down Slovakia by standing in Danny Rose's position or 5 yards infront of Stones and Cahill. He should have been higher up the pitch near Kane receiving the ball and playmaking from there like he used too, but clearly now he feels he is better to get the ball very deep and try and knock long passes from there. That's not a good sign.

The difference is Scholes/Schweinsteiger/Pirlo/Alonso have that picture in their brain, they know where there marker is and where everybody is on the pitch, and position/adjust their bodies to suit. Rooney cannot do that. His brain only engages once he's taken a touch, but usually by that time he's already closed down and being tackled.

If people really think that beating a 10 man Slovakia who defended all game 1-0 is an acceptable result, it really isn't. Lucky for Sam that was his first game as he got the benefit of doubt, if it was Hodgson he would have been massacred in the press.

I was talking about the Hull-game though, God knows I got better thing to do than to watch England

 

[Adam-Utd]

I was talking about the Hull-game though, God knows I got better thing to do than to watch England

AH. OK yeah his performance wasn't so bad in that game, I still feel he should be contributing way more though as a forward in our team IMO.

 

[SteveJ]

I genuinely think there is something in the psyche of that.

If, by the word 'psyche', you're suggesting that posters are bandwagoning on Rooney criticism in the Matchday threads & elsewhere, that's not the way perception generally works. Ordinarily, it goes this way: posters watching the game think that Rooney is performing poorly, and then they post about his poor performance. In the vast majority of cases, this is surely the way it pans out even when one allows for confirmation bias.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

If, by the word 'psyche', you're suggesting that posters are bandwagoning on Rooney criticism in the Matchday threads & elsewhere, that's not the way perception generally works. Ordinarily, it goes this way: posters watching the game think that Rooney is performing poorly, and then they post about his poor performance. In the vast majority of cases, this is surely the way it pans out even when one allows for confirmation bias.

Psychology? Psychological? Sorry Steve, English is not my first language and it can become a mess for me sometimes.

What I mean is that the emotional charge of experiencing something can influence the way a person thinks and it sticks and recycles in their memory. I actually first mentioned this in the Moyes vs. LVG thread when I said that I'd gone back and analyzed a lot of that season and it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be and one particular user still viciously abused Moyes and then claimed it blasphemy that I would even suggest people go back and watch that season and it would change their perspective. That is my weird roundabout example, lol

I feel this is a similar issue with Rooney. People come out of a game charged and vent their anger, I usually see games way way after the fact if I don't get to see them live. Sometimes over the last 2 seasons I've watched games even 10 or more times over (thank god for MUTV! I could kiss it! Literally the only TV in my house stays on 24/7 with that channel on it! Haha) and still fail to see what people vehemently claim as truths, sometimes even wonder how people can get to that stage. (Though LVG's football.. Ugh, torture)

But yeah, maybe I got the word wrong? Hope what I explained makes more sense.

 

[SteveJ]

Psychology? Psychological? Sorry Steve, English is not my first language and it can become a mess for me sometimes.

No problem, chief.

I do agree with you about kneejerk reactions and confirmation bias; we're all guilty of these things at times, I guess (myself certainly included).

 

[Pexbo]

It's not the whole story. In the Euros, Rooney didn't start a game. Do you remember what happened? Did England play well? Did they score? Did they win?

England's problem isn't Rooney. England's problem is that the other players are WORSE than Rooney!

Roy changed six (!) players for that game.

How about the Germany game he was rested for?

 

[nick2004]

Roy changed six (!) players for that game.

How about the Germany game he was rested for?

A meaningless friendly? You are kidding, right?

Kane and Alli were shit in the Euros, with or without Rooney.

 

[#07]

A meaningless friendly? You are kidding, right?

Kane and Alli were shit in the Euros, with or without Rooney.

I am not Rooney's biggest defender but this is definitely true. The issue at the Euros certainly wasn't Rooney. Besides Rashford nobody looked anything like their usual self in an England shirt. Besides Joe Hart who produced his customary fumbles...