Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[Adebesi]

It is shameful to admit but much of my life does revolve around Utd.

I think, of all places, you can leave your shame at the door when you are here. There are people who seem to spend all day, most days, on here talking about United. 95% of us here share that passion.

I dont remotely begrudge you your overall opinions about Rooney, though as you may remember from a previous conversation I do think perhaps you have allowed yourself to get into a position where things annoy you about him disproportionately. I say this with as much conviction as I can say about a person I have never met and otherwise know nothing about. ie very little. But it seems to me that Rooney, while being overpaid, not reaching his full potential, perhaps being a bit stupid, certainly being represented by a despicable person in Paul Stretford, and having various other faults, at least is a player who gives his all.

And he remains arguably our best player, or one of them at least. And also I happen to agree with the comments he made when he first tried to leave: we should have been investing more in the squad. OK so his reaction when we signed Van Persie wasnt great but I too questioned whether we had made the right signing, we needed quality in other positions more than we needed another striker when the one we had was in the form of his life. That is part of the reason I never had the same reaction many people did, I fundamentally saw his point.

 

[Adebesi]

I am a Radiologist. So my job is mainly about observation, logical deduction, inference and elimination.
Good thing it does not require personal opinion. Right?

Ill say, good thing Rooney isnt going for an xray in St Kitts, and leave it at that.

 

[Lane]

He now has no income from football, which would explain it.

Well maybe, i am not sure that thing translates into meaningful income though.

Nothing wrong with it. He's retired and can do as he pleases as far as I am concerned.

I am not saying it's wrong, i am saying it's weird. Scholes is like the last person on Earth, maybe behind Fergie, that you can imagine becoming a pundit or a blogger.

 

[Gladiator]

lol it's incredible how non-stories can be turned into drama so quickly. i did find rooney's quotes odd and perhaps not the best choice of words but overall is it really that big of a deal?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

He should've just said: "Tree."

 

[MoneyMay]

There's nothing wrong with the comments he made, apart from the part where he says that Scholes hasn't been present for a "long time". Scholes was with us at the end of last season and the season before last.

Rooney had his usual spell of good performances in the first half of the season and then an inconsistent period in the second half of the season. At no point in the season was there a moment where he put in a consistent spell of great performances, and I feel that's the problem when it comes to judging him. But he shouldn't be dropped from the England squad. The mistake manager's have made is that they deem him to be someone who is a #10, when his performances have shown anything but that. Even Fergie had him interchange with Welbeck in 11/12 and Van Persie in 12/13, and that worked out well (more so with the former than the latter). Moyes is right - the England team should be built around him (as a striker). I just don't subscribe to the notion that you have to be in form to be selected for the national team.

 

[markhrad]

Ill say, good thing Rooney isnt going for an xray in St Kitts, and leave it at that.

I would treat him as I would any Red. No charge and with complete respect. The latter is given to everybody but not the former.
You seem like a decent human being and most of your points are valid. I of course disagree with some but then again this is an open debate.
Like you, I too am normally level-headed and suffer fools gladly but Rooney for some reason gets under my skin.
Hopefully we will other debates where we will be on the same page.
Until then I will only watch Rooney with one eye

 

[mazhar13]

Not from last season. That's currently the most direct comparison. You're talking about a season that was 4 years ago. Lot can change in that space of time

Last season is an anomaly in my eyes. Two seasons ago was a good indication of what Rooney does when partnered with a striker, too, even though Rooney was off form for periods of that season.

I used the 2009/10 season because Rooney was the main striker up front for much of the season, and that was the only season when this was the case. Since then, he's played a more supportive role alongside the likes of Chicharito and van Persie. It was only a few times, since then, where he played an interchanging role with Welbeck or up front with Kagawa/Mata behind him.

 

[goldenstatesplash]

Err... have a listen to yourself mate.

How is this "inflammatory shit"? Rooney has long wanted to be the "big dog" at United. He practically demands it. Yet it's too much to ask for Rooney not to have a whinge every time someone says anything bad about him. You never saw Scholes have a whinge, nor Giggs either if the press said anything.

And you don't think there's going to be fireworks with LVG? Or that Stretford will start leaking stories against United/LVG when things inevitably turn pear-shaped, like he did when they wanted to put pressure on Fergie?

I can't hear myself think over the tears in this thread.

They write it, so you read it and get outraged. Otherwise nobody would write anything about it.. Because nobody would care. The whole point of journalism these days is to get people to react to a snippet and send it on so they get more hits. You never saw them whinge because journalism was actual journalism back then. You never saw Scholes have a cry because he didn't get picked and have a big strop about it? Nope, becuase it took about 15 years for Scholes to say it in an interview and frankly, who cares to be honest. Only gimps who claw over this shit to get outraged.

I don't care if there is fireworks, or if Stretford was leaking stories, or when they put pressure on Ferguson. I don't presume to talk as if I know everything that happened.

 

[100]

Has this Pat Nevin video been posted? The Everton bit is ridiculous

 

[NessunDorma]

Has this Pat Nevin video been posted? The Everton bit is ridiculous

And when he does chase back, he gets accused of being a headless chicken with no positional discipline who should save his energy for attacking #Can'tWin

 

[mazhar13]

Has this Pat Nevin video been posted? The Everton bit is ridiculous

I can't see it because I'm not in the UK, but I want to see it!

Can anyone tell me what goes on in this video? I will appreciate this!

 

[elisha27]

I can't see it because I'm not in the UK, but I want to see it!

Can anyone tell me what goes on in this video? I will appreciate this!

Check out https://hola.org/ - simple browser plugin to watch anything from anywhere.

 

[mazhar13]

Check out https://hola.org/ - simple browser plugin to watch anything from anywhere.

Thanks, Elisha!

 

[JefferiesTube]

Rooney had a good season and he has never had a bad season. He always creates chances and scores goals and makes strong contribution to the team throughout every season. This season he managed 41 goals and assists in PL, CL and LC

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

So Rooney's just 11 goals off beating Sir Bobby Charlton's international record for England, and 34 goals off beating his record for United. If he achieves both, I think it's fair to say he'll go down as one of the all time greats, although he already is in my eyes.

 

[MoneyMay]

And when he does chase back, he gets accused of being a headless chicken with no positional discipline who should save his energy for attacking #Can'tWin

This is a ridiculous post. You completely ignore Pat Nevin's excellent analysis to further your own agenda. At least acknowledge that he can be problematic when played as a #10. The only bit that can be argued in the video is his positioning as a centre-forward against Everton. I think that was a strict tactic by Moyes, hence Van Persie was more or less a classic #9 for us last season, rather than a "nine-and-a-half".

 

[JefferiesTube]

Has this Pat Nevin video been posted? The Everton bit is ridiculous

That so called analysis was pathetic and worthy of a politician. He singled out Rooney and criticized him for X, Y and Z when the rest of the the team were just as guilty for the same thing. Also he is cherry picking and selecting any negative he can find and fixating on it. At the same tine he ignores the fact that Rooney has been our best player all season, he ignores all the positive contribution he has made

 

[MoneyMay]

That so called analysis was pathetic and worthy of a politician.

Well, no, not really. Pathetic would have been if he didn't have a point in releasing his analysis.

He singled out Rooney and criticized him for X, Y and Z when the rest of the the team were just as guilty for the same thing.

I think this is a straw man argument. Rooney was disappointing in the second half of the season. He picked up a couple of injuries (and played as a CM in a few games), but even when he was given a a run of games, his touch didn't improve. He wasn't performing well enough - not as good as his first half of the season form - and looked poor to the point where the basics were incongruous with his attitude.

Also he is cherry picking and selecting any negative he can find and fixating on it.

Of course he's going to look at the negatives. He's looking for reasons as to why Rooney's position is "in doubt" (according to the media mostly) because that's what the talk is about. He could have selected quite a few matches in the second half of the season. His main points still stand, and have been brought up by members on here long way before Pat Nevin released his analysis. Inconsistent touch, poor positioning on and off the ball, and lack of vision for someone who is meant to be a #10 have been discussed - and will continue to be discussed - on here.

At the same tine he ignores the fact that Rooney has been our best player all season, he ignores all the positive contribution he has made

Pat Nevin acknowledged Rooney's status, but he doesn't need to say that he's been our best player last season. Why does he need to? Was Rooney more consistent than De Gea? Even if we consider him as our best player last season, his name wasn't mentioned in the Premier League team of the season. It works both ways (and both arguments are weak).

My position remains the same - Rooney should be played as a centre-forward for England. He doesn't possess the essential ingredients to make a big difference playing as a #10 for them. He's more a hindrance than an essential component in that position IMO.

 

[JefferiesTube]

Well, no, not really. Pathetic would have been if he didn't have a point in releasing his analysis.



I think this is a straw man argument. Rooney was disappointing in the second half of the season. He picked up a couple of injuries (and played as a CM in a few games), but even when he was given a a run of games, his touch didn't improve. He wasn't performing well enough - not as good as his first half of the season form - and looked poor to the point where the basics were incongruous with his attitude.



Of course he's going to look at the negatives. He's looking for reasons as to why Rooney's position is "in doubt" (according to the media mostly) because that's what the talk is about. He could have selected quite a few matches in the second half of the season. His main points still stand, and have been brought up by members on here long way before Pat Nevin released his analysis. Inconsistent touch, poor positioning on and off the ball, and lack of vision for someone who is meant to be a #10 have been discussed - and will continue to be discussed - on here.



Pat Nevin acknowledged Rooney's status, but he doesn't need to say that he's been our best player last season. Why does he need to? Was Rooney more consistent than De Gea? Even if we consider him as our best player last season, his name wasn't mentioned in the Premier League team of the season. It works both ways (and both arguments are weak).

My position remains the same - Rooney should be played as a centre-forward for England. He doesn't possess the essential ingredients to make a big difference playing as a #10 for them. He's more a hindrance than an essential component in that position IMO.

My opinion is England should play 2 strikers, Rooney and Sturridge. Hodgson can do what he likes and Nevin can say what he likes. You, me, those 2 and every other person on the planet can have their opinion. Is there a right and wrong opinion?

 

[Amar__]

My opinion is England should play 2 strikers, Rooney and Sturridge. Hodgson can do what he likes and Nevin can say what he likes. You, me, those 2 and every other person on the planet can have their opinion. Is there a right and wrong opinion?

What a reply.

 

[NessunDorma]

This is a ridiculous post. You completely ignore Pat Nevin's excellent analysis to further your own agenda. At least acknowledge that he can be problematic when played as a #10. The only bit that can be argued in the video is his positioning as a centre-forward against Everton. I think that was a strict tactic by Moyes, hence Van Persie was more or less a classic #9 for us last season, rather than a "nine-and-a-half".

It's not 'ridiculous' at all. He does get accused of wasting energy and distorting the shape of the team by needlessly tracking back.

And we're talking specifically about the Everton section here. There's a bit where Rooney is dispossessed in Everton's half, and then is criticised for not chasing back to try and atone. I mean, okay . . . but in those situations, I think you need to be looking at your midfield and defenders rather than your centre forward/No. 10. I'm not sure we'd see David Silva or Juan Mata busting a gut to get back and challenge in those situations either.

And as No.10s go, Rooney's defensive contribution tends to be better than most others anyway, as these stats demonstrate:

Average interceptions per 90 minutes:

Average blocks per 90 minutes:

Average clearances per 90 minutes:

Nevin has highlighted some examples of Rooney not chasing back, of the kind you could find for pretty much any forward player in the league, and tried to suggest an overall pattern of him shirking defensive duties from it. When that is not really the case, as the overall stats given the context of his position show.

 

[Amar__]

You are obsessed with Rooney's stats and always showing those missleading ones. That stat is another example of those because he is the only one of mentioned players who is defending corners and other setpieces.
Try actually looking some games instead, it's actually more fun than posting some meaningless stats.

 

[NessunDorma]

You are obsessed with Rooney's stats and always showing those missleading ones. That stat is another example of those because he is the only one of mentioned players who is defending corners and other setpieces.
Try actually looking some games instead, it's actually more fun than posting some meaningless stats.

You're just another anti-Rooney band wagoner who doesn't like the fact i'm quantifying what I see in the games - namely, that Rooney does in fact chase back to defend rather a lot - with actual numbers.

 

[Amar__]

You're just another anti-Rooney band wagoner who doesn't like the fact i'm quantifying what I see in the games - namely, that Rooney does in fact chase back to defend rather a lot - with actual numbers.

I don't mind admitting that I dislike Rooney, but all I see from you is posting irrelevant stats to defend Rooney because you can't do it through his actual performance. Those previous stats summed your posts on Rooney, comparing his defensive contribution with players like Mata, Özil and Silva who aren't defending set pieces.

 

[NessunDorma]

Scholes on Rooney's proclivities for chasing back, and how he should actually do less of it:

His best attributes are his energy, desire, a will to win which is unbelievable . . . He’ll try to play left back, right back. Sometimes he does that too much instead of saving himself and his energy for what his teams need – the ball in the net. He needs to use his energy more effectively now as he’s a player who likes to be up front on his own and I don’t think he’s great with partnerships

http://blog.paddypower.com/2014/05/...england-can-get-the-best-out-of-wayne-rooney/

Capello on Rooney's proclivities for chasing back, and how he should actually do less of it:

I have spoken with him, maybe three times, and I have said that he is too generous . . . He tries to do too much and he needs to focus on his own best position. He needs to be more selfish. Otherwise he becomes tired and is not fresh.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...abio-Capello-urges-Wayne-Rooney-to-focus.html

The fact is that Rooney tracking back too much has been a criticism levelled at him over the years, and is one that is still being levelled at him now.

Nevin uses selective video highlights to basically try and prove that he's now 'lazy', but again, you could find similar clips for any other No.10 in the league.

They are not, first and foremost, defenders, and Rooney is hardly the worst of the bunch when it comes to the defensive aspects of the No.10 position.

 

[NessunDorma]

I don't mind admitting that I dislike Rooney, but all I see from you is posting irrelevant stats to defend Rooney because you can't do it through his actual performance. Those previous stats summed your posts on Rooney, comparing his defensive contribution with players like Mata, Özil and Silva who aren't defending set pieces.

It's down to you to demonstrate that those stats are based on set piece contributions, rather than the fact that Rooney generally does contribute more defensively in open play. Which to my eyes, he quite clearly does.

 

[Loublaze]

I'll be so glad to see LVG put this prick in his place.

 

[NessunDorma]

I'll be so glad to see LVG put this prick in his place.

And i'll love it if LvG decides he fancies Rooney, there's no trouble between them, and they both help us go on to achieve much more success in the future.

But then i'm weird like that.

 

[r0x0rwolfo]

I don't mind admitting that I dislike Rooney, but all I see from you is posting irrelevant stats to defend Rooney because you can't do it through his actual performance. Those previous stats summed your posts on Rooney, comparing his defensive contribution with players like Mata, Özil and Silva who aren't defending set pieces.

...

Rooney tracks back more than all those players. 'In his actual performances he does' or whatever you want to hear. Remember Fulham? None of those players are ever busting a gut like that, but no one asks them to.

 

[Amar__]

It's down to you to demonstrate that those stats are based on set piece contributions, rather than the fact that Rooney generally does contribute more defensively in open play. Which to my eyes, he quite clearly does.

I need to prove to you that Rooney is defending set pieces, and that Mata and co aren't doing that? No thanks, you'll have to watch one game and you'll see that quite clearly.

I am not saying that his defensive contribution is poor btw, he runs too much for my likeing too, but I don't think his defensive contribution is that good considering how much pitch he covers. I am quite sure players like Scholes and Carrick would have double interceptions than him in same position with much less ground covered. He runs like headless chicken at times, but his awereness is far from great. He is great defensively as a winger IMO, but in midfield you need to use your brain more than your legs.

 

[r0x0rwolfo]

I am not saying that his defensive contribution is poor btw, he runs too much for my likeing too, but I don't think his defensive contribution is that good considering how much pitch he covers. I am quite sure players like Scholes and Carrick would have double interceptions than him in same position with much less ground covered.

Rooney isn't a DM/CM... I'm sure Scholes and Carrick have much more interceptions than Ozil, Mata and Silva... Just watching you cede the actual point then criticising him for 'maybe not intercepting as much as Carrick'.

 

[NessunDorma]

I need to prove to you that Rooney is defending set pieces, and that Mata and co aren't doing that? No thanks, you'll have to watch one game and you'll see that quite clearly.

No, you need to prove that Rooney's superior interception/clearance/block statistics are solely down to the fact he comes back for corners more than the others, rather than the fact he tracks back more frequently than they do, and so spends more time near his own goal.

 

[Amar__]

Rooney isn't a DM/CM... I'm sure Scholes and Carrick have much more interceptions than Ozil, Mata and Silva... Just watching you cede the actual point then criticising him for 'maybe not intercepting as much as Carrick'.

I said "in same position", read better.

 

[Nighteyes]

Only Rooney could could get criticized for defending too much and defending too less and then have his defensive ability compared to actual defensive minded midfielders.

 

[Amar__]

No, you need to prove that Rooney's superior interception/clearance/block statistics are solely down to the fact he comes back for corners more than the others, rather than the fact he tracks back more frequently than they do, and so spends more time near his own goal.

You think he spends more time near his own goal than the likes of Mata and Silva, really? Check average positions in random games where he plays behind the striker and compare it with average positions of Mata, Silva and Özil and you'll see that in last season he even had games where he was actually more forward than our striker(van Persie or Welbeck), and in general his average position was much higher up than Mata's when played in #10.

 

[MoneyMay]

It's not 'ridiculous' at all. He does get accused of wasting energy and distorting the shape of the team by needlessly tracking back.

That wasn't my point. I'm well aware of posters here discrediting him with regards to his tracking back, but what's ridiculous is that you undermined Pat Nevin's point to emphasise yours. There has to be some sort of balance when you argue. This is about reasons for the abrupt talk about Rooney's position being in contention.

And we're talking specifically about the Everton section here. There's a bit where Rooney is dispossessed in Everton's half, and then is criticised for not chasing back to try and atone. I mean, okay . . . but in those situations, I think you need to be looking at your midfield and defenders rather than your centre forward/No. 10. I'm not sure we'd see David Silva or Juan Mata busting a gut to get back and challenge in those situations either.

When you lose the ball, you have to win it back - or focus on defending your position. Rooney was definitely lazy in terms of pressing his opponents post-Stoke game. I don't know why that was, but he certainly did not have the same energy. It was only until the second leg of the Olympiakos game where he was credited massively for his hard work off the ball, and where he showed that immense work rate that is what is endearing about him.

And as No.10s go, Rooney's defensive contribution tends to be better than most others anyway, as these stats demonstrate:

Average interceptions per 90 minutes:

Average blocks per 90 minutes:

Average clearances per 90 minutes:

In terms of tackles and interceptions, Rooney does more than Mata, Ozil, and Silva, but again that takes away from the point Nevin made. There are flaws within this argument:

1) Rooney defends corners, so the block and clearances is obviously going to be in his favour.
2) Tackles and interceptions aren't a clear reflection of defensive nous.
3) If we're going to use tackles and interceptions as a key measurement, then you would have to look at tackles and interceptions in the first half of the season and compare it to the second half. And that relates back to 3. That's only if someone was to use this as the sole measurement for his defensive work (not saying you are).

However, these stats don't matter. There's no identifier for positioning or pressing, and that's the problem. And I'm certainly not one of those who discredit his defensive work.

Nevin has highlighted some examples of Rooney not chasing back, of the kind you could find for pretty much any forward player in the league, and tried to suggest an overall pattern of him shirking defensive duties from it. When that is not really the case, as the overall stats given the context of his position show.

Actually, Nevin has been very smart in his use of games. He knows that Rooney's form was average in the second half of the season, and that's why he selected those two games. He's suggesting a pattern towards the end of the season and is not analysing Rooney's overall level defensively. He could have picked quite a few games: Fulham and Bayern Munich, for example. Fulham - for his defending (not pressing his man for Fulham's opening goal) and his poor touch (Bayern Munich at home). You could also argue that he was responsible for us not maintaining a compact shape at times.

 

[NessunDorma]

That wasn't my point. I'm well aware of posters here discrediting him with regards to his tracking back, but what's ridiculous is that you undermined Pat Nevin's point to emphasise yours.

My point, as the hash tag at the end suggested, was more about Rooney being damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Chases back? He's wasting energy and should stay up top where he can do most damage (pace Scholes a few days ago, Capello and The Secret Footballer)

Doesn't chase back? He's shirking his defensive duties and needs to do more.

There are people out there who will criticise him no matter what he does.

And I do feel that Rooney is to an extent being singled out, and Nevin's analysis - or the people who commissioned it - is feeding into that

Sure, there are flaws in his game. There are flaws in the games of the people who are being touted as his replacement as well, although they aren't really being subjected to similar close scrutiny.

Comes with the territory of being England's most high profile footballer I suppose, but on balance, he was quite clearly one of the best English players in the Premier League this season, and certainly the best English No.10, so the questioning of his place in the team seems strange to me.

 

[Nighteyes]

Actually, Nevin has been very smart in his use of games. He knows that Rooney's form was average in the second half of the season, and that's why he selected those two games. He's suggesting a pattern towards the end of the season and is not analysing Rooney's overall level defensively. He could have picked quite a few games: Fulham and Bayern Munich, for example. Fulham - for his defending (not pressing his man for Fulham's opening goal) and his poor touch (Bayern Munich at home). You could also argue that he was responsible for us not maintaining a compact shape at times.

That's not called being smart, that's called being a snide bellend. You could find clips of other attacking players doing the same. Equally you could find plenty of clips of Rooney bursting a gut to retrieve the ball.

 

[NessunDorma]

You think he spends more time near his own goal than the likes of Mata and Silva, really? Check average positions in random games where he plays behind the striker and compare it with average positions of Mata, Silva and Özil and you'll see that in last season he even had games where he was actually more forward than our striker(van Persie or Welbeck), and in general his average position was much higher up than Mata's when played in #10.

Why don't you check it, and come back with the results, seeing as though the burden is on you to prove your own claims, and not me.