Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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NessunDorma said:
Rooney's minutes per goal record at international level between 2003-2006, back when he was still good: 193 minutes per goal.

Rooney's minutes per goal record at international level between 2011-2014, during the period of his decline: 151 minutes per goal.
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Is this with respect to competitive matches or does include friendlies? In the competitive matches he scored a lot in qualifiers against relatively weak opposition.
 
markhrad said:
"The truth is an offense but not a sin", Courtesy of the late Bob Marley. I am accustomed to them. I said he failed to live up to his immense potential but they will probably omit the "immense" part.
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It depends what you expected of him. If you expected him to become the best player in the world, then no, he hasn't 'lived up to his potential'.

If you expected him to be an elite domestic and international footballer for years and years to come, then he very much has lived up to his potential.

5 times Premier League winner, Champions League winner, 2 times losing finalist, World Club Cup winner, more competitive international goals for England than any other player in history, more Champions League goals than any English player in history, 3rd on United's all time top scorer list, more than one appearance in the top ten of the Ballon D'or award, etc.

And there is the possibility of more to come.
 
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NessunDorma said:
Rooney's minutes per goal record at international level between 2003-2006, back when he was still good: 193 minutes per goal.

Rooney's minutes per goal record at international level between 2011-2014, during the period of his decline: 151 minutes per goal.
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You're not getting the point here. Rooney had the potential to be at Ronaldo/Messi level. Yes, he became a great player and his last 3 seasons overall were very good. But he never took that next step a Ronaldo/Messi did.

Some seem to underrate just how big of a talent Wayne Rooney was.
 
Cassidy said:
This is why I never trust stats.
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Perhaps people are forgetting that the sooper-dooper young Rooney didn't score a single goal in 7 games for England during the qualification tournament for World Cup 2006.

Perhaps people are forgetting that the sooper-dooper young Rooney only scored 2 goals in 6 games for England during the qualification tournament for Euro 2008.

Most of his competitive goals for England have come later in his career - 9 in 9 in the World Cup 2010 qualifiers, for example, and 7 in 6 in the World Cup 2014 qualifiers.

I genuinely do think people have this romanticised, highlight reel memory of the young Rooney. He was undoubtedly brilliant, don't get me wrong, but i'm not sure he was head and shoulders better than he is now, if he was even better at all.
 
markhrad said:
Is this with respect to competitive matches or does include friendlies? In the competitive matches he scored a lot in qualifiers against relatively weak opposition.
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It includes both. But England played some 'weak opposition' in the earlier part of his career as well.
 
NessunDorma said:
Perhaps people are forgetting that the sooper-dooper young Rooney didn't score a single goal in 7 games for England during the qualification tournament for World Cup 2006.

Perhaps people are forgetting that the sooper-dooper young Rooney only scored 2 goals in 6 games for England during the qualification tournament for Euro 2008.

Most of his competitive goals for England have come later in his career - 9 in 9 in the World Cup 2010 qualifiers, for example, and 7 in 6 in the World Cup 2014 qualifiers.

I genuinely do think people have this romanticised, highlight reel memory of the young Rooney. He was undoubtedly brilliant, don't get me wrong, but i'm not sure he was head and shoulders better than he is now, if he was even better at all.
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Not really.
I think Rooney is a very good player for England, and has been great at times for United.

Most strikers tend to score more goals later in their career that is a given, so its not a surprise that his goal scoring record improved with age.

I guess it depends on what you thoughts about young Rooney and his ability/potential were.

He is obviously a better player now than he was then, he has experience and is more mature, however that doesn't mean he has reached his potential. He for me had the ability to be a far better player than he is now.
 
Rooney has to prove he can do a job for England on the left tonight, his lack of pace will be the most concerning thing, especially in the heat.

I would prefer he was benched as a cover striker for Sturridge who has had a much better season and is a key player for us in this world cup.
 
redtilldead123 said:
I would prefer he was benched as a cover striker for Sturridge who has had a much better season and is a key player for us in this world cup.
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So . . . say Rooney is dropped for the Italy game, and Sturridge has a stinker. Do you then drop Sturridge for the Uruguay game, and bring in Rooney? And if so, what if Rooney has a stinker for the Uruguay game? Do you then drop Rooney again, and bring Sturridge back in?

Ditto for all the other players who are supposedly threatening Rooney's place, such as Lallana and Lambert, and the team in general. Is every player who doesn't perform in a certain game under threat of being benched, or just Rooney?

I never thought i'd be quoting Alan Shearer, but ability does basically have to come into it, and on ability as well as general form, Rooney deserves to be in the side for the Italy game.
 
NessunDorma said:
So . . . say Rooney is dropped for the Italy game, and Sturridge has a stinker. Do you then drop Sturridge for the Uruguay game, and bring in Rooney? And if so, what if Rooney has a stinker for the Uruguay game? Do you then drop Rooney again, and bring Sturridge back in?

Ditto for all the other players who are supposedly threatening Rooney's place, such as Lallana and Lambert, and the team in general. Is every player who doesn't perform in a certain game under threat of being benched, or just Rooney?

I never thought i'd be quoting Alan Shearer, but ability does basically have to come into it, and on ability as well as general form, Rooney deserves to be in the side for the Italy game.
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There are no guarantees in football or life things will go one way or the other.

Sturridge might score a hat trick. He might do nothing.

When picking a team you have to go with probabilities. In my eyes Sturridge will probably perform better than Rooney. I'm basing my opinion on ability and this season's form. If you think Rooney has had a better season you are entitled to that opinion but it's not one I share.
 
redtilldead123 said:
When picking a team you have to go with probabilities. In my eyes Sturridge will probably perform better than Rooney. I'm basing my opinion on ability and this season's form. If you think Rooney has had a better season you are entitled to that opinion but it's not one I share.
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Well, in terms of Rooney Vs Sturridge, I don't think it's either/or. Both can and likely will start.

But the general point remains: if one or the other doesn't perform, should they be dropped? And if their replacements don't themselves perform, should they then be dropped in turn?
 
Hope he gets dropped so when England are inevitably shit and go out he's not the one blamed.
 
markhrad said:
Rooney is England's top goalscorer in competitive ( non-friendly ) matches but he does not appear to score in competitive matches against the elite countries.
His goals are heavily skewed towards qualifying matches where the competition is not very strong.
Since it is well-established that he does not perform well following an injury then it is only logical that he should not be an automatic pick in those circumstances.
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But if Sterling, Lallana and Sturridge are so good, where exactly were they when England was winning it's way to World Cup in matches against Ukraine, Poland, Montenegro? As i remember all these guys has contributed absolutely nothing in these games, well apart from a pity penalty for Sturridge in Montenegro home game, and that's a 6 very important matches. And Rooney for some reason was our top scorer in these games.
 
akash02 said:
Hope he gets dropped so when England are inevitably shit and go out he's not the one blamed.
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That's the best reason for dropping him, if you ask me. So we don't have to spend the first months of next season coping with any 'It was all Rooney's fault!' fall out.
 
Of course Rooney should not be an automatic starter for England. Nor should anyone else, for any team. Players should be picked on form, you are better off with a less talented player in the form of his life than the best player in the world on the middle of a dire run of form surely? If a player is playing badly and needs games to rediscover form it should be in the reserves, not the first team. Again this does not only apply to Rooney but any player
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Of course Rooney should not be an automatic starter for England. Nor should anyone else, for any team. Players should be picked on form, you are better off with a less talented player in the form of his life than the best player in the world on the middle of a dire run of form surely? If a player is playing badly and needs games to rediscover form it should be in the reserves, not the first team. Again this does not only apply to Rooney but any player
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You should read about Alan Shearer's situation prior to Euro 96, where he became the top scorer. Before that he did not score in like 10 matches or something, was in terrible form, yet he was great at the tournament.
 
Ducklegs said:
Waynes problem isn't his outright speed, its his acceleration, and that's mainly because he isn't playing on his toes in the position he is often played in, which is behind the front man.
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I know what you mean with this, he is sometimes flat footed even though he is actually very quick. I think that is also one of the reasons he first touch can be off too.
 
Lane said:
You should read about Alan Shearer's situation prior to Euro 96, where he became the top scorer. Before that he did not score in like 10 matches or something, was in terrible form, yet he was great at the tournament.
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By this logic we would select player deliberately because they are off form.

Rooney is a match for Sturridge when he regains his form but until that point Sturridge is the natural first choice.
 
redtilldead123 said:
By this logic we would select player deliberately because they are off form.

Rooney is a match for Sturridge when he regains his form but until that point Sturridge is the natural first choice.
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No, that's stupid. But we should select better, classier players in principle, because form is temporary, while class is permanent. So you are better off with a more talented player even if he is somewhat off form.
 
Lane said:
No, that's stupid. But we should select better, classier players in principle, because form is temporary, while class is permanent. So you are better off with a more talented player even if he is somewhat off form.
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Well we both measure Sturridge differently because although Rooney is more versatile and certainly more talented as a youngster compared to Sturridge, I would say as things stand now, and on their best form, it would be a close call.

And seeing as one is out of form (not all his own doing) and the other well in form there is no argument for me.
 
redtilldead123 said:
Well we both measure Sturridge differently because although Rooney is more versatile and certainly more talented as a youngster compared to Sturridge, I would say as things stand now, and on their best form, it would be a close call.

And seeing as one is out of form (not all his own doing) and the other well in form there is no argument for me.
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First of all, it's not an "or" situation with them, they played together in many matches, important game with Montenegro being one of them. Secondly, anyone can any player how they like, but the fact is that Rooney is a proven international player that also while being "off form" managed to contribute far greater in the top qualification matches. So in terms of class there is not much to argue, i mean Sturridge is 25 this year and he only has 11 caps. That says it all really. But i personally still think they should both start.
 
So if he loses his starting spot for England as a striker, do we think he will revisit a midfield role with more enthusiasm and receptiveness? England have some quick players who Roy would rather play on the flanks like Ox & Sterling, not to mention Lallana's form and Sturridge seems like a surefire starter as center forward while Roy also loves Welbeck.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
So if he loses his starting spot for England as a striker, do we think he will revisit a midfield role with more enthusiasm and receptiveness? England have some quick players who Roy would rather play on the flanks like Ox & Sterling, not to mention Lallana's form and Sturridge seems like a surefire starter as center forward while Roy also loves Welbeck.
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He has said that he's happy to play for England whether that would be up front, on the left, behind the striker, or in midfield. So I guess that, if he doesn't get the spot up front, he'd be happy to play in midfield as long as he's playing for England.
 
Has he had a full proper tournament since he broke his meta in Euro 2004? He had a blinder there and since he's had a bad injury leading up to every tournament. If I am remembering right.. Maybe not, also they failed to qualify for Euro 2008.
 
mazhar13 said:
He has said that he's happy to play for England whether that would be up front, on the left, behind the striker, or in midfield. So I guess that, if he doesn't get the spot up front, he'd be happy to play in midfield as long as he's playing for England.
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Nah, he'll have Stretford seeking a move to play for Spain if he's stuck out of position before the tournament is over.
 
mazhar13 said:
He has said that he's happy to play for England whether that would be up front, on the left, behind the striker, or in midfield. So I guess that, if he doesn't get the spot up front, he'd be happy to play in midfield as long as he's playing for England.
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He is speaking to the media so what else do you expect him to say?
Anyway he will start and even if it is as a winger it will not make any difference. I am sure he will do his normal all over the place routine. It is what his diehard fans call an " incredible workrate ". It is expected for there to be some degree of interchange between the attackers but I bet Rooney will drift into positions in which he does not belong.
 
Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney dismissed Paul Scholes’ criticism on Thursday, saying he is ‘not interested’ in his former team-mate’s comments.

Scholes, who was part of Ryan Giggs coaching staff at the end of the season, wondered in a recent interview whether we have seen the best of Rooney, whether he will ever get back to the player he was two or three years ago and whether the England striker was ‘worn out’, having started his senior career with Everton at the age of 16.

But Rooney has claimed he does not listen to comments from people outside the England camp and argued Scholes has very little to do with him nowadays.

“To be honest, I’m not really interested in what anyone else has got to say,” Rooney said.

“I’m interested in what Roy Hodgson, the coaching staff and the people around me say. People have their opinions but I don’t agree with them.

“He (Scholes) has been a team-mate of mine but he’s also been away from the (United) first team for a long time. I’ve seen a lot of you (journalists) saying he’s coached me and been around the team but he hasn’t.

“I’m not really going to react. I’m not interested. He’s got his opinions so let’s leave it at that.”
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He should be less concerned about what Hodgson thinks and more concerned about what Louis van Gaal thinks. Roy won't be dropping him however Louis might just put him on the left, on the right or even in central midfield with specific instructions on what he must do to avoid the bench.
 
markhrad said:
He is speaking to the media so what else do you expect him to say?
Anyway he will start and even if it is as a winger it will not make any difference. I am sure he will do his normal all over the place routine. It is what his diehard fans call an " incredible workrate ". It is expected for there to be some degree of interchange between the attackers but I bet Rooney will drift into positions in which he does not belong.
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I don't know about you, but he doesn't really drift around all over the place and really get out of position. If anything, he performs the particular role he's given strictly.

If he plays as the main forward, he normally stays up but does drop back at times and create space for runners to get through. As a deep-lying forward, he drifts around back and forth more than normal. However, all of this movement is only vertical and barely horizontal. He never really drifts out to the channels and mainly stays around in the middle areas (he does go out wide once or twice per match but not as often as attacking midfielders would).

Whenever he plays in central midfield, he rarely strays forward. Whenever he plays on the left, he normally stays out wide to stretch the opposition but cuts in when the spaces are open.

We'll see how much freedom Hodgson will actually give to Rooney. If anything, I actually expect Hodgson to give Rooney particular roles to perform rather than let him loose.
 
Rykker_4united said:
Yeah, being a bit of a cnut towards Scholes there. Read that earlier.
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I don't think Scholes was trying to e disrespectful. I believe he was giving his honest opinion.
Rooney's reported comments were definitely disrespectful.
mazhar13 said:
I don't know about you, but he doesn't really drift around all over the place and really get out of position. If anything, he performs the particular role he's given strictly.

If he plays as the main forward, he normally stays up but does drop back at times and create space for runners to get through. As a deep-lying forward, he drifts around back and forth more than normal. However, all of this movement is only vertical and barely horizontal. He never really drifts out to the channels and mainly stays around in the middle areas (he does go out wide once or twice per match but not as often as attacking midfielders would).

Whenever he plays in central midfield, he rarely strays forward. Whenever he plays on the left, he normally stays out wide to stretch the opposition but cuts in when the spaces are open.

We'll see how much freedom Hodgson will actually give to Rooney. If anything, I actually expect Hodgson to give Rooney particular roles to perform rather than let him loose.
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Are you being sarcastic?
 
markhrad said:
Are you being sarcastic?
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I think you misunderstood me. Whilst Rooney does drift around, he doesn't do it in an undisciplined manner. As I said, his movement and positioning is dictated by the role he plays. It's not as if he himself doesn't know what role he plays.
 
mazhar13 said:
I don't know about you, but he doesn't really drift around all over the place and really get out of position. If anything, he performs the particular role he's given strictly.

If he plays as the main forward, he normally stays up but does drop back at times and create space for runners to get through. As a deep-lying forward, he drifts around back and forth more than normal. However, all of this movement is only vertical and barely horizontal. He never really drifts out to the channels and mainly stays around in the middle areas (he does go out wide once or twice per match but not as often as attacking midfielders would).

Whenever he plays in central midfield, he rarely strays forward. Whenever he plays on the left, he normally stays out wide to stretch the opposition but cuts in when the spaces are open.

We'll see how much freedom Hodgson will actually give to Rooney. If anything, I actually expect Hodgson to give Rooney particular roles to perform rather than let him loose.
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I think you are giving him far too much credit. He strays to get involved. You make it sound as if he does it for tactical reasons.
 
markhrad said:
I think you are giving him far too much credit. He strays to get involved. You make it sound as if he does it for tactical reasons.
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He doesn't do this when playing up top as the main striker. He does it when he plays behind the striker up top, though.

As a striker in the 2009/10 season, he didn't drop deep as often as he did in every other season. Even in all other seasons, when he was the main man up top. he didn't move around that much and didn't drop deep that often.

He drops back deep and gets involved when playing behind the forward. That's what players do in that role. When he plays up top as the main striker, he doesn't drop deep as often, which is what is expected from strikers up top.
 
mazhar13 said:
He doesn't do this when playing up top as the main striker. He does it when he plays behind the striker up top, though.

As a striker in the 2009/10 season, he didn't drop deep as often as he did in every other season. Even in all other seasons, when he was the main man up top. he didn't move around that much and didn't drop deep that often.

He drops back deep and gets involved when playing behind the forward. That's what players do in that role. When he plays up top as the main striker, he doesn't drop deep as often, which is what is expected from strikers up top.
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He played really only one season as the man up top. I think he moves far too much, vertically, diagonally and horizontally. You said earlier it makes room for runners to come through I think it leaves a space where he should be.
We obviously seeing things completely different. What I will do is re-watch some matches and pay closer attention to upcoming matches to make sure I am not blinded by bias.
 
markhrad said:
He played really only one season as the man up top. I think he moves far too much, vertically, diagonally and horizontally. You said earlier it makes room for runners to come through I think it leaves a space where he should be.
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Compared to natural attacking midfielders like Silva, Mata, Ozil, and Kagawa, he doesn't move around that much. Yes, his vertical movement is very noticeable (mainly due to how people view our midfield), but it isn't anything out of the ordinary, in my view.
 
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