Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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Danny Welbeck is whilst arguments could be made for Barkley but I haven't observed his pressing/defensive game to form a sound opinion . I also do not think that Welbeck can be relied upon, from an attacking perspective, to utilise the few chances that will come England's way .

Welbeck performed a similar role superbly in the Champions League vs Xabi Alonso. Henderson or Lallana at the tip of a midfield 3 could probably also be trusted with the job. Meanwhile, Rooney's tactical indiscipline has obviously led to some pretty high profile failures when asked to perform this kind of duty (Busquets 2011, Pirlo 2012, Coentrao 2013). I wouldn't drop Rooney entirely for the Italy game, but we might be better off shunting him wide right; since the Italians don't have an attacking left back, Rooney's sloppiness shouldn't be an issue.
 
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Performing at a high level. His stats IMO are often misleading you look at his in the 12/13 campaign they were good for someone who was often out of position but most would agree he had a poor season based on performances. He should at least reach the level of Suarez/Aguero but how often do those performances come around from Rooney these days? Rarely. These days his to hot and cold, he consistently picks up niggling injuries which then take him 3-4 games to get back in form.

He consistently is as good as Suarez and Aguero over the past three years.

Check your stats.
 
He consistently is as good as Suarez and Aguero over the past three years.

Check your stats.
I'm talking about performance levels, an on form Suarez/Aguero are a couple of levels above Rooney now days not to mention they are more consistent Rooney has one good game in five if his lucky. His form at the start of the season was grossly overrated yet he was made out to be some sort of savior because everyone else was so bad.

His stats are misleading, similar to Gerrard his assists are mainly from corners/set pieces.
 
This is just the league. 3/11 from set pieces, lets just kill that myth as well now.

vs Swansea, pass to Welbeck (there's was another "assist" in this game, but it's just silly to call it that)
vs Southampton, rebound to Van Persie
vs Stoke, again rebound to Van Persie
vs Fulham, pass to Valencia
vs Arsenal, corner kick to Van Persie
vs Cardiff, corner kick to Evra
vs Aston Villa, pass to Cleverley
vs West Ham, pass to Welbeck, pass to Young
vs Hull, free kick to Smalling
vs West Brom, pass to Welbeck
 
vs Bayer, pass to Valencia
vs Bayer, 2nd game, pass (cross) to Valencia, free kick to Smalling, rebound to Evans, pass to Smalling
vs Olympiacos, pass to Van Persie
vs Bayern, corner kick to Vidić

2/7 Champions League

vs Liverpool, corner kick to Hernandez
vs Norwich, pass to Fabio

1/2 League Cup

6/20 from set pieces all together. (not that there's anything bad with even 20/20)
 
The lethargic, slow play isn't just when he's back from injury. It happened throughout last season and I can't see how you fail to see it.
I'm fine with Rooney being consistently lethargic and slow if he manages to be our top scorer and top assister again next season.
 
I'm fine with Rooney being consistently lethargic and slow if he manages to be our top scorer and top assister again next season.

You would put Rooney's personal glory/stats ahead of what could be improved functionality and threat for the team as a whole?
 
You would put Rooney's personal glory/stats ahead of what could be improved functionality and threat for the team as a whole?
Considering Rooney plays for United any personal glory he attains through scoring goals or setting up goals helps United. I personally think it would nigh on impossible for a player to contribute the most in terms of creating goals, through either scoring or assisting them, and have a net negative effect on the team.

So what I'm really saying is that I do put Rooney's stats above the frustration of a few muppets due to his occasionally loose control.
 
Look; I can, and I'm sure you can as well, name six or seven reasons more detrimental to our underachievement than Rooney.
Wasn't saying that he is to blame for that forgettable season but merely pointing out that starring in a team that finished seventh for the first time in God knows how long isn't much reason for getting loads of credit or deciding to build a team around that particular season .
 
Wasn't saying that he is to blame for that forgettable season but merely pointing out that starring in a team that finished seventh for the first time in God knows how long isn't much reason for getting loads of credit or deciding to build a team around that particular season .

Maybe. But he at times he was the only one in the team who showed some passion and effort for us to succeed. And if he did play like a total pub player at times, well, the others were no better.

After all, De Gea has also been in this team and he has over-all been playing pretty well [though not to his full potential, as he hasn't been involved with his feet which is one thing we should use this coming season. Almost like an extra sweeper]

Besides, like you said, this is a season we should forget. Rooney has proved in the past (2010 season) that he is worthy of being part of a Man United team.

EDIT: Forgot to add one more thing. I'm not in favor of having one specific tactic like 4-3-3 or whatever. I believe we should have two sustainable tactics. That would make us a team with no weaknesses.

For that reason, I think Rooney and RVP are both really important. For some teams I'd start both of them. For others, I'd drop either.
 
Some are just not willing to let go of Rooney. Look he is not as good as RVP as a No9. He is not as good as Mata as a No10.
Its not a question of using either of them in some games. He should only be used as a back up for RVP.
Those of you who would like to see him used as a midfielder a la Scholes, how about we just get a world class CM instead.
It seems like some are desperate to prove a point at the detriment of our team. Its not Rooney's team we are Man Utd. If he cant fit in get someone else who can. Why should we compromise a position just so that he can be accommodated?
 
Some are just not willing to let go of Rooney. Look he is not as good as RVP as a No9. He is not as good as Mata as a No10.
Its not a question of using either of them in some games. He should only be used as a back up for RVP.
Those of you who would like to see him used as a midfielder a la Scholes, how about we just get a world class CM instead.
It seems like some are desperate to prove a point at the detriment of our team. Its not Rooney's team we are Man Utd. If he cant fit in get someone else who can. Why should we compromise a position just so that he can be accommodated?
With RVP injury record that could amount to a serious number of games really. I reckon LVG might surprise a few people and actually work out a system where RVP, Rooney and Mata will all be effective.
 
With RVP injury record that could amount to a serious number of games really. I reckon LVG might surprise a few people and actually work out a system where RVP, Rooney and Mata will all be effective.
RVP was relatively injury free for two seasons, both of which he won the prem golden boot. A return to his carefully managed training sessions should hopefully ensure his fitness.
If LVG can find a way to effectively incorporate the 3 of them without everything going through Rooney I would be most surprised. Rooney would have to show positional discipline, something he is not use to doing.
Even so you are still looking for a way to accommodate Rooney.
 
Bit off topic but did anyone see Rooney's interview at the Froch vs Grove fight? Dunno if its just me but why the feck would anyone care what Rooney or anyone else for that matter has to say about a sport that they don't play / take part in? There was at least 10+ ex-pro boxers there, surely their opinion would've mattered more.
 
Bit off topic but did anyone see Rooney's interview at the Froch vs Grove fight? Dunno if its just me but why the feck would anyone care what Rooney or anyone else for that matter has to say about a sport that they don't play / take part in? There was at least 10+ ex-pro boxers there, surely their opinion would've mattered more.

His profile as an World Cup bound player notwithstanding, Rooney does have a genuine interest in the sport does he not? He was part of Hatton's ring walk a few years back IIRC.
 
RVP was relatively injury free for two seasons, both of which he won the prem golden boot. A return to his carefully managed training sessions should hopefully ensure his fitness.
If LVG can find a way to effectively incorporate the 3 of them without everything going through Rooney I would be most surprised. Rooney would have to show positional discipline, something he is not use to doing.
Even so you are still looking for a way to accommodate Rooney.

Why is Rooney not used to showing positional discipline?

This seems to be a bit of a self pervading myth on the CAF.

Remember this is the guy who used to have play out wide in big games when we had Ronaldo because Ronaldo was given total freedom and do an extremely disciplined job tracking back and helping out the full backs. Something he used to do admirably when we got to two CL finals in a row in 07/08 and 08/09. I remember the job he did on Walcott with Evra when he was on a booking when we won 3-1 at the Emirates and plenty of other times in away legs during those runs.

When we reached 3 finals in 4 years, Rooney was very disciplined in his positional play and work rate. If that has declined over the last couple of seasons, I would have that down to the general decline in United as a cohesive unit from those days, rather than Rooney individually.

I can only remember Fergie going with Welbeck to do that job on Alonso over Rooney in any of our recent seasons and that decision made sense as Welbeck is younger and now more mobile than Rooney.

BTW - I have got no problems with LVG going with RVP and Mata over him if he feels that's the best formation for the team but I think so much of the criticism in this thread is without merit and exaggerated.
 
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RVP was relatively injury free for two seasons, both of which he won the prem golden boot. A return to his carefully managed training sessions should hopefully ensure his fitness.
If LVG can find a way to effectively incorporate the 3 of them without everything going through Rooney I would be most surprised. Rooney would have to show positional discipline, something he is not use to doing.
Even so you are still looking for a way to accommodate Rooney.
RVP is also older, so it remains to bee seen if these two seasons will be only ones in his career or not. Still there is a huge possibility he will miss many games.
As for "accommodating" Rooney, i think it's meaningless point in general. First of all, no matter how anybody thinks of him and whether he is better than RVP or Mata, he is a very good player. Lets forget this year, but even the last year when he was not at his best he still contributed a lot. And was still one of our 3-4 top performers that season. So getting him in the team would not only benefit him, it could also benefit the team hugely, again if the whole system is fine.
Di Maria is a great example, he did okay in 12-13, but was not spectacular really. Real bought Bale and with Ronaldo already there, many have asked how would Di Maria fit in. But Ancelotti managed to devise the system where Di Maria became CM/AM drifting to the left, while Ronaldo drifted to a CF position. So was he "accommodating" Di Maria? No, i don't think so. He took a squad and thought of best system to utilize best of them. And that was beneficial for a team and the player as well. That is what i am talking about.

For example, today Dutch played a friendly with Ghana and they were set up as 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 version to be exact. And their attacking trio of Snejder-Robben-RVP could have been exactly the type of system to employ Rooney, Mata and RVP.

I rather say that people are hellbent on using a certain formation or trying to force the issue "Rooney or RVP", "Rooney or Mata". Without actually thinking about the fact that the best teams are the ones that fit their best players together effectively. When Suarez was banned and Sturridge scoring people keep wondering who will Rodgers choose when both will be fit, how hard it will be for Rodgers to drop Sturridge or to fit them together. But Rodgers managed to come up with a working system that employed these two just fine, and not only them, but Coutinho/Sterling as well.
 
And don't forget that Rooney played a lot of games as a CM, i don't think he is particularly good there or should play there, but it shows that he has much more positional discipline/awareness than most of our attacking players.
 
I reckon when you allow for the fact that he's a serial chain smoker, fat drunk scouser, making plans to coerce more money from United rather than going to the bloody gym, playing in a position that he's apparently shit at etc.. he's done a quite a job to be our 3rd highest scorer of all time.

Considering he's played for us for now approaching ten seasons, in a team that scores shitloads of goals is it any wonder he's scored so many?

He is everything you posted before that point though.

And don't forget that Rooney played a lot of games as a CM, i don't think he is particularly good there or should play there, but it shows that he has much more positional discipline/awareness than most of our attacking players.

Well no not really. It shows he has a range of attributes that some strikers don't have, allowing him to play a different position. He's horribly bad positionally when he plays in CM though. Hell, he's always been indisciplined positionally, wandering all over the shop.
 
RVP is also older, so it remains to bee seen if these two seasons will be only ones in his career or not. Still there is a huge possibility he will miss many games.
As for "accommodating" Rooney, i think it's meaningless point in general. First of all, no matter how anybody thinks of him and whether he is better than RVP or Mata, he is a very good player. Lets forget this year, but even the last year when he was not at his best he still contributed a lot. And was still one of our 3-4 top performers that season. So getting him in the team would not only benefit him, it could also benefit the team hugely, again if the whole system is fine.
Di Maria is a great example, he did okay in 12-13, but was not spectacular really. Real bought Bale and with Ronaldo already there, many have asked how would Di Maria fit in. But Ancelotti managed to devise the system where Di Maria became CM/AM drifting to the left, while Ronaldo drifted to a CF position. So was he "accommodating" Di Maria? No, i don't think so. He took a squad and thought of best system to utilize best of them. And that was beneficial for a team and the player as well. That is what i am talking about.

For example, today Dutch played a friendly with Ghana and they were set up as 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 version to be exact. And their attacking trio of Snejder-Robben-RVP could have been exactly the type of system to employ Rooney, Mata and RVP.

I rather say that people are hellbent on using a certain formation or trying to force the issue "Rooney or RVP", "Rooney or Mata". Without actually thinking about the fact that the best teams are the ones that fit their best players together effectively. When Suarez was banned and Sturridge scoring people keep wondering who will Rodgers choose when both will be fit, how hard it will be for Rodgers to drop Sturridge or to fit them together. But Rodgers managed to come up with a working system that employed these two just fine, and not only them, but Coutinho/Sterling as well.
I actually agree with most of what you stated, however, I do not think you realized I said ".... incorporate the 3 of them without everything going through Rooney...".
Also when I say " positional discipline " I refer to his habit of drifting all over the place so as to be constantly involved.
I do not think Rooney is good enough to be our main player meaning our play should centre around him.
 
Considering he's played for us for now approaching ten seasons, in a team that scores shitloads of goals is it any wonder he's scored so many?

He is everything you posted before that point though.



Well no not really. It shows he has a range of attributes that some strikers don't have, allowing him to play a different position. He's horribly bad positionally when he plays in CM though. Hell, he's always been indisciplined positionally, wandering all over the shop.

The mere fact he has played for United for a decade during it's most successful era with players like Ronaldo, Tevez, RVN, Berbatov, RVP, and Mata should show what a top player he was and in my opinion still is.

Rooney will go down as one of the best players to ever play for United, and behind Ronaldo as the second best and most important attacking player of the post Keane era.

He's far from my favourite player but you would think he was Peter Davenport or Gary Birtles going on some of the comments in this thread.
 
The mere fact he has played for United for a decade during it's most successful era with players like Ronaldo, Tevez, RVN, Berbatov, RVP, and Mata should show what a top player he was and in my opinion still is.

Rooney will go down as one of the best players to ever play for United, and behind Ronaldo as the second best and most important attacking player of the post Keane era.

He's far from my favourite player but you would think he was Peter Davenport or Gary Birtles going on some of the comments in this thread.

Oh don't get me wrong. He once was one of our very best, he once was one of the best to play the game at that time. He's been living off past glories for as long as I can remember now though. I don't see how people can justify saying he's still a top player. Not just based on last night but based on his last three/four years as a whole.

His best year as a striker was 09/10, his best year as anything else way before then. Since then he's either been good or absolutely, shambolically bad with more of the latter creeping in the older he gets. There's no middle ground with Rooney and his performances and therefore there's no middle ground between his fans and his haters. We can't rely on him and he's only going to get worse. I stand by the fact that his new contract was the worst thing about Moyes' reign. We're saddled with him for a long, long time now. I'd hate to see how bad he's gonna be by the end of it.
 
Why is Rooney not used to showing positional discipline?

This seems to be a bit of a self pervading myth on the CAF.

Remember this is the guy who used to have play out wide in big games when we had Ronaldo because Ronaldo was given total freedom and do an extremely disciplined job tracking back and helping out the full backs. Something he used to do admirably when we got to two CL finals in a row in 07/08 and 08/09. I remember the job he did on Walcott with Evra when he was on a booking when we won 3-1 at the Emirates and plenty of other times in away legs during those runs.

When we reached 3 finals in 4 years, Rooney was very disciplined in his positional play and work rate. If that has declined over the last couple of seasons, I would have that down to the general decline in United as a cohesive unit from those days, rather than Rooney individually.

I can only remember Fergie going with Welbeck to do that job on Alonso over Rooney in any of our recent seasons and that decision made sense as Welbeck is younger and now more mobile than Rooney.

BTW - I have got no problems with LVG going with RVP and Mata over him if he feels that's the best formation for the team but I think so much of the criticism in this thread is without merit and exaggerated.

Tracking back and filling in for full backs are the only things Rooney can do, defensively. Otherwise, he isn't that good. His positional awareness when off the ball is poor. He uses too much energy to try to win the ball back, chasing it more than getting into good positions to win the ball. Plus, Rooney's not that good at reading the game, defensively, often leaving spaces open in central midfield and not doing a good job of tracking dangerous players.
 
The mere fact he has played for United for a decade during it's most successful era with players like Ronaldo, Tevez, RVN, Berbatov, RVP, and Mata should show what a top player he was and in my opinion still is.

Rooney will go down as one of the best players to ever play for United, and behind Ronaldo as the second best and most important attacking player of the post Keane era.

He's far from my favourite player but you would think he was Peter Davenport or Gary Birtles going on some of the comments in this thread.
I respectfully disagree. We had a large number of great players during Rooney's time with us especially in attack and defense. We probably would have been just as good without him. He may end up with the scoring record due to longevity but he could not make a greatest second eleven.
Even if you disagree you are talking about the past. RVP may be older but is clearly a better number 9. People eg Scholes and Lineker, are now even questioning if he should start for England. Nobody is questioning RVP's role in the Netherland's team. No way, barring injury, should Rooney be considered a starter over RVP.
 
I can see the point some are trying to make. If we played Frazier Campbell instead of Rooney all these years chances are that Campbell would be our 3rd highest scorer as well.

Considering he's played for us for now approaching ten seasons, in a team that scores shitloads of goals is it any wonder he's scored so many?

He is everything you posted before that point though.
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Probably not as I said above.

It's a wonder Fergie put up with such a undisciplined player and person for nigh on 10 years when we could have just replaced him without any consequences and may even have done better without him.
 
I can see the point some are trying to make. If we played Frazier Campbell instead of Rooney all these years chances are that Campbell would be our 3rd highest scorer as well.



Probably not as I said above.

It's a wonder Fergie put up with such a undisciplined player and person for nigh on 10 years when we could have just replaced him without any consequences and may even have done better without him.
I'd assume that the problems associated with Rooney's professionalism, if there were any that is, would have cropped up post 2010 when he had what was supposed to be his break out season ! By then I think he was too important to sell as he was just about our only player capable of world class performances in attack . I have no doubt that Rooney can still contribute significantly for both club and country but he needs that proverbial kick up the backside, e.g if Hodgson was to drop him for England's opening match, I can pretty much guarantee you that Rooney and England, consequently, will have a much better world cup than the ones they have had . Force him to play with a point to prove and you get the Rooney you want .
 
Well no not really. It shows he has a range of attributes that some strikers don't have, allowing him to play a different position. He's horribly bad positionally when he plays in CM though. Hell, he's always been indisciplined positionally, wandering all over the shop.
No, he was always actually quite good, as was said before, he did play on the wing and he has done a great job there.
Mata also "wanders around the shop", is he bad positionally? I don't think you understand what positioning mean really. If a player moves around the pitch much it does not mean his positioning is bad.
 
Problem is that Rooney is a good level or two behind those players.

That wasn't the question at hand though even if I agree Zlatan and Messi are better but I don't think Rooney is worse in that role than Lewandowski.

LVG prefers using strikers who stays up top though so I don't think he will use a false-9.
 
My England team:

--Sterling----Sturridge-----Ox--

-------Henderson-----wilshere-----

-----------------Gerrard-------------

Yup, drop Wayne Rooney. Can't see another option. He needs to earn his start for England. He's simply not good enough atm. His season was worse than sterling and Sturridge, and Ox is more exciting than him. Play Rooney off the bench perhaps.

This is what I don't get about such line-ups. Ox, Henderson and Wilshere have done absolutely nothing in an England shirt in their careers to date, while Rooney was their top scorer in the qualifying campaign, scoring crucial goals in key matches.

And yet it's Rooney who should be dropped and made to 'earn his place', a conclusion apparently made off the back of a 65 minute appearance in a nothing friendly?

So what exactly have the other three done to 'earn their place', then?
 
I actually agree with most of what you stated, however, I do not think you realized I said ".... incorporate the 3 of them without everything going through Rooney...".
Also when I say " positional discipline " I refer to his habit of drifting all over the place so as to be constantly involved.
I do not think Rooney is good enough to be our main player meaning our play should centre around him.
Well Mata is also drifting all over the place, does he have a good "positional discipline"?
I also don't think that Rooney was anywhere near the position of him being the center of our team. I think it was exactly the opposite, after a great 11-12 season he was shifted all over the pitch to compensate for our lack of better players in that positions. It was under Fergie and under Moyes as well. I for example can't name even single one of players that had 30+ goals in season and was forced to deputize in deeper positions as a CM. I would argue that Rooney's play actually was hindered by the fact that he was asked to "do a job" for MU.
 
how many think Rooney is best used as a midfielder...replacing Scholes. If we get a solid box to box DM alongside, we would be good for another 5 or 6 years.

I think his all-round range of passing precision (not accuracy, he can hit good passes now and again) is well sub-par for a team looking to win trophies. His first touch also, is pretty inconsistent at best, if not downright poor.

Midfielders of all types need to have these things 'down' and Rooney doesn't. Not in my view anyway.
 
Tomorrow's Mirror, Daily Mail and Telegraph all saying Rooney will be stuck on the left wing for the Ecuador game (presumably a rehearsal for Italy where somebody else will be trusted with tracking Pirlo).
 
Tomorrow's Mirror, Daily Mail and Telegraph all saying Rooney will be stuck on the left wing for the Ecuador game (presumably a rehearsal for Italy where somebody else will be trusted with tracking Pirlo).

They might go for Sturridge up front since he's had the better season of the two. I would be surprised if Hodgson had the guts to not play Rooney up top when you lot head to Brazil so he might just be trying things out in this game.
 
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