Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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AttackingFlair said:
Just as well then that only Luis Suarez has scored/assisted more often than him this season. Not to mention how poor we have been compared to the other top teams.

Combined goal/assists:

Suarez 42
Rooney 27
Sturridge 27
Y.Toure 25
Gerrard 23
Aguero 22
Giroud 22
Hazard 21
Lambert 21
Lukaku 19
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That's impressive, especially for Suarez. Gerrard the penalty taker...

I'm going to try normalise those. Scoring contribution = Non Penalty Goals + assists Per 90. Any one else you want me to put on there?

Aguero: 1.40
Suarez: 1.35
Sturridge: 1.15
Rooney: 0.88
RVP: 0.74
Lukaku: 0.70
Giroud: 0.65
Y.Toure: 0.63
Lambert: 0.60
Hazard: 0.55
Gerrard: 0.43

Don't blame Rooney for coming 4th place here, the top 3 have been arguably (or unarguably some would say) the best attacking players in the league this season.
 
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Kostur said:
So now what, SAF was fecking around saying that Rooney wanted to leave last season ? :confused: He didn't do it for the second time now ?
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Why didn't SAF sell him first time around, since Rooney is such villian he should have known better and expect Rooney to make similar move in the future, or that is also Rooneys fault that managers didn't do right?

But yeah, people involved in the club including Sir Alex bent over to Rooney and let them stick it in and now we have shit player with high wages that doesn't score or assist just walks around pitch counting money.

However you look it's everything Rooney fault, from shit attitude to contracts being given to him.

And to tell you the truth think he had his fingers in selling Cristiano to Real, that's how much he really bad is, just like his first touch when off form...
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
How is it biased towards Rooney, when it is comparing Rooney to Rooney? It's using fixed criteria, if they don't want to include penalty goals then that works. Rooney would still do fine with or without

Weird how penalty shootouts don't go towards goals scored either, that must enrage you.
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It compares him to the best in the league and chooses to ignore certain things that would boost others in comparison. How can he compare this goal contribution and ignore a certain way others contribute to goals.? Does Aguero take corners?
 
Black Adder said:
I don't know what going on behind scenes, with him and his agent, no one does, yet people like to refer to gossip links or take guesses to prove their negative opinon on Rooney and it's being tolerated.

Rooney performed for United since he came to the club, even this year when everyone else forgot how to play footy yet people still act like butthurt because it's Rooney, fans favorite when it comes to bashing and then put aside his overall contribution to United success over the years, pathetic.



I recently wrote that Vidić should't be playing for United again since he looked like he's mentally already in Milan.

2 matches later he's back to playing Vida way and it's me who was clearly wrong about him.

So what can I do, admit I was wrong, or try to find some stat about him having 0,02 tackles less won with his left foot and go on with that just to act like that wrong presumption never happend?

I'll admit I was wrong, but Rooney bashers won't give up on him being shit no matter what he does on the pitch since they'll always find something to whine about just because they need to.
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Which is why you need a better response than 'but professionals think he's amazing'.
 
acnumber9 said:
It compares him to the best in the league and choosing to ignore certain things that would boost others in comparison. How can he compare this goal contribution and ignore a certain way others contribute to goals.? Does Aguero take corners?
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Do you even know what is being talked about?
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
Do you even know what is being talked about?
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Yes. Goals that the players have contributed to. So what we have is other players having goals taken off them for some reason. Presumably that reason is because Rooney is no longer our main penalty taker so it would be unfair to count them as he doesn't have that opportunity to boost his stats. The problem there is that if you ignore that then you have to ignore the set pieces that Rooney takes that boost his performance that others don't have the benefit of.
 
Black Adder said:
Why didn't SAF sell him first time around, since Rooney is such villian he should have known better and expect Rooney to make similar move in the future, or that is also Rooneys fault that managers didn't do right?

But yeah, people involved in the club including Sir Alex bent over to Rooney and let them stick it in and now we have shit player with high wages that doesn't score or assist just walks around pitch counting money.

However you look it's everything Rooney fault, from shit attitude to contracts being given to him.

And to tell you the truth think he had his fingers in selling Cristiano to Real, that's how much he really bad is, just like his first touch when off form...
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You're making up shit right now and trying to ridicule the situation while failing at it quite miserably.

You have to be horribly deluded not to see that Rooney indeed does have shit attitude.
 
acnumber9 said:
Yes. Goals that the players have contributed to. So what we have is other players having goals taken off them for some reason. Presumably that reason is because Rooney is no longer our main penalty taker so it would be unfair to count them as he doesn't have that opportunity to boost his stats. The problem there is that if you ignore that then you have to ignore the set pieces that Rooney takes that boost his performance that others don't have the benefit of.
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Nope. We're specifically talking about this article: http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/01/statsbomb-mythbusting-five-years-of-wayne-rooney/

It compares Rooney to........ Rooney! By a number of different metrics. No one mentioned Aguero or anything! It can't be biased towards Rooney because it doesn't really discuss anyone else. It's only judging Rooney against himself and isn't meant to be a comparison to other players.

If you want to talk about something else we sure can, but don't get all 'it's biased therefore meaningless' when you don't understand it's aims.
 
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r0x0rwolfo said:
Nope. We're specifically talking about this article: http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/01/statsbomb-mythbusting-five-years-of-wayne-rooney/

It compares Rooney to........ Rooney! By a number of different metrics. No one mentioned Aguero or anything! It can't be biased towards Rooney because it doesn't really discuss anyone else. It's only judging Rooney against himself and isn't meant to be a comparasion to other players.
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It regularly compares him to who the best player was in each season he's discussed. It's an article derived to show why he's worth what he has paid. You can't do that without comparing him to his peers. Something the article does several times. You've even done it yourself above. Ultimately any statistical analysis that ignores chosen factors is unreliable.
 
Kostur said:
You're making up shit right now and trying to ridicule the situation while failing at it quite miserably.

You have to be horribly deluded not to see that Rooney indeed does have shit attitude.
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His shit attitude resulted in him being one of the top scorers in club history aswell as winning trophy here and there, or did I made that up also?
 
Black Adder said:
His shit attitude resulted in him being one of the top scorers in club history aswell as winning trophy here and there, or did I made that up also?
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No, but stop pretending that people who are simply bored and fed up with his awful attitude and have their say are stupid and agenda driven.

And no, his shit attitude didn't result in that, his skill did.
 
acnumber9 said:
It regularly compares him to who the best player was in each season he's discussed. It's an article derived to show why he's worth what he has paid. You can't do that without comparing him to his peers. Something the article does several times. You've even done it yourself above. Ultimately any statistical analysis that ignores chosen factors is unreliable.
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I've used one metric out of the article. The article itself measures:

Non Penalty goals
Goal Conversion
Successful Dribbles
Dispossession
Interceptions + tackles
Throughballs
Key Passes
Assists
Passing %
Shooting %
Shots

We are given 5 years worth of all these stats all about Rooney.

Naturally there's the odd comparision to contextualise things, which aren't necessarily flattering to Rooney either (I.E RVP who had better scoring contributions a few years) but it is fundamentally a comparison of Rooney against Rooney. If you think it's anything else, you are missing the point and have comprehension issues. These are just statistics and show no bias, the selection of statistics presented are consistent amongst other articles and are therefore not selected to make any one player look good or look bad. From Bale to Kagawa:

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/02/feb-2014-mailbag-who-broke-my-damned-kagawa/
 
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Kostur said:
No, but stop pretending that people who are simply bored and fed up with his awful attitude and have their say are stupid and agenda driven.

And no, his shit attitude didn't result in that, his skill did.
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So he has shit attitude yet he still contributes to the team success,he must be geniuos some sort then!

Edit: please point me out the part of my posts in which I call people critising Rooney stupid.
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
Nope. We're specifically talking about this article: http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/01/statsbomb-mythbusting-five-years-of-wayne-rooney/...
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From the comments section of that page:

Geraint Morgan says:
January 27, 2014 at 6:24 pm
I have the feeling that rooney is the best second banana in world football. If he is the second best player on your team, you are getting pippen/early kobe production and you will win. The team is so much better off.
but, you wont win things if he is your best player. And that includes england. Especially england.
no matter if his stats improve when he is top dog (like say his year) .
last year felt like the best example of his. No support, but with rvp they won.
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This fellow is close.
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
I've used one metric out of the article. The article itself measures:

Non Penalty goals
Goal Conversion
Successful Dribbles
Dispossession
Interceptions + tackles
Throughballs
Key Passes
Assists
Passing %
Shooting %
Shots

We are given 5 years worth of all these stats all about Rooney.

Naturally there's the odd comparision to contextualise things, which aren't necessarily flattering to Rooney either (I.E RVP who had better scoring contributions a few years) but it is fundamentally a comparison of Rooney against Rooney. If you think it's anything else, you are missing the point and have comprehension issues. These are just statistics and show no bias, the selection of statistics presented are consistent amongst other articles and are therefore not selected to make any one player look good or look bad.
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Why ignore goals scored from penalties if you include other set pieces? You cannot ignore goals because you don't like the kind of goals they are. It renders any talk of 'goal contribution' meaningless when you don't include all goals. The whole article is designed to consider whether he's worth the money he's allegedly paid. You can't do that by only comparing him against himself. You might need a few comprehension lessons yourself.
 
Kostur said:
No, but stop pretending that people who are simply bored and fed up with his awful attitude and have their say are stupid and agenda driven.

And no, his shit attitude didn't result in that, his skill did.
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He's spent years being pushed around from pillar to post for the good of the team. He arguably sacrificed his own greater glory - e.g. he'd almost certainly have far more goals now if he hadn't been played so often on the left/in midfield/etc - in doing this. He never once, at least publicly, complained about it. That doesn't smack of a 'shit attitude' to me.

Now, you can bring up the two transfer requests - although in regards to the most recent one, some ITKs are adamant that Fergie was planning on getting rid of Rooney anyway. And I agree that they were unfortunate.

It was also unfortunate when, in 1996, Fergie threatened to resign if he wasn't given the contract he felt he deserved. Or when, in 1999, he accused the club of lacking ambition in the transfer market. But it doesn't mean he had a 'shit attitude'.

And I don't think Rooney has one either. He's generally played very well for this club, has been selfless, and has hardly ever lacked for effort. In a ten year career there are always going to be a few mishaps, but otherwise, he's been fine.
 
acnumber9 said:
Why ignore goals scored from penalties if you include other set pieces? You cannot ignore goals because you don't like the kind of goals they are. It renders any talk of 'goal contribution' meaningless when you don't include all goals. The whole article is designed to consider whether he's worth the money he's allegedly paid. You can't do that by only comparing him against himself. You might need a few comprehension lessons yourself.
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Yes, yes you can. It's their metrics, their rules. Like I said, the same metrics are used for Kagawa and Bale here: http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/02/feb-2014-mailbag-who-broke-my-damned-kagawa/

That's the standard player radar. They have not altered anything to make Rooney look good or bad. Besides, Rooney has scored 3 penalties this season.
 
Kostur said:
So now what, SAF was fecking around saying that Rooney wanted to leave last season ? :confused: He didn't do it for the second time now ?
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SAF said in his book it was never about the money for Rooney. The guy may have felt he'd done it all with United and wanted a change, not unlike another United darling who is looked upon with admiration for leaving and fulfilling his boyhood dream. The club obviously realised they wouldn't be able to replace a player who plays 3 positions astutely for a reasonable fee, especially when Bale and co were going for 100M, and gave him a new contract.
 
Black Adder said:
Why didn't SAF sell him first time around, since Rooney is such villian he should have known better and expect Rooney to make similar move in the future, or that is also Rooneys fault that managers didn't do right?

But yeah, people involved in the club including Sir Alex bent over to Rooney and let them stick it in and now we have shit player with high wages that doesn't score or assist just walks around pitch counting money.

However you look it's everything Rooney fault, from shit attitude to contracts being given to him.

And to tell you the truth think he had his fingers in selling Cristiano to Real, that's how much he really bad is, just like his first touch when off form...
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IMO Fergie didn't sell Rooney the first time because firstly, he was undoubtedly the main player at the club with no replacement. Secondly, he wanted to move to city which was absolutely unacceptable.
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
Yes, yes you can. It's their metrics, their rules. Like I said, the same metrics are used for Kagawa and Bale here: http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/02/feb-2014-mailbag-who-broke-my-damned-kagawa/

That's the standard player radar. They have not altered anything to make Rooney look good or bad. Besides, Rooney has scored 3 penalties this season.
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Of course they can do it. You could do it by factoring in how many throw ins a player wins if you have the relevant data but it doesn't make it worthwhile. The study may not deliberately be biased in favour of Rooney but that doesn't change the fact that ignoring some goals leaves an incomplete picture therefore it's all a bit pointless.
 
hungrywing said:
From the comments section of that page:



This fellow is close.
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I don't buy it really. I've heard this argument but I don't think the eventually conclusion of the premier league winner which naturally relies on 1,000's of variables we can simply predict the winner as to whether Rooney is percieved as the 'top dog' at one of the football clubs. The best explantion is: 1 good player < 2 good players.
 
Would really not be shocked if a Rooney saga brews this Summer. Possibly ending with the man leaving us.

If, as expected, van Gaal wants Van Persie as his main striker. I cannot really see a place for Rooney. Mata in my opinion is our very best player and van Gaal is too smart to play him out wide like DM did.

Then again, maybe van Persie isn't a gimme as our main striker. van Gaal will know his fitness levels best.

That Rooney/Mata/RvP conundrum is the biggest van Gaal has in terms of our playing squad. So long as Mata is in the number 10 role, I am happy.
 
acnumber9 said:
Of course they can do it. You could do it by factoring in how many throw ins a player wins if you have the relevant date but it doesn't make it worthwhile. The study may not deliberately be biased in favour of Rooney but that doesn't change the fact that ignoring some goals leaves an incomplete picture therefore it's all a bit pointless.
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So the study is not biased. It uses the same metrics for Messi. Messi looks godlike on that thing.

They haven't factored in throw ins. If we're ever going to use stats at all, they are always invariably going to leave something out. Had Suarez been chosen to take the penalties he would have even more goals, Liverpool have had 12 penalties. By using the Non-penalty goal metric this levels the playing field. It sorts out the Gerrard's from the Suarez's (one a genuinely good striker and the other simply the 'penalty guy'). The NPG index actually uses more information not less. Goals = A. Where as Non Penalty goals = A - B = C

The guy has sat down and made his decision, he's been pretty honest, it does in fact say: "Non-penalty Goals". You may think penalty goals should be given the same weighting as non penalty goals (although ironically you bemoan Rooney for taking freekicks) but this guy clearly doesn't. Guess you don't always get your own way. If you like, you can create your own stats website with the metrics you think are legitimate.

Bizarrely the metric I used when making a simple comparison actually bumped Rooney down the list (compared to the total goals assisted/scored combined) and you still think it favours Rooney.
 
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r0x0rwolfo said:
So the study is not biased. It uses the same metrics for Messi. Messi looks godlike on that thing.

They haven't factored in throw ins. If we're ever going to use stats at all, they are always invariably going to leave something out. Had Suarez been chosen to take the penalties he would have even more goals, Liverpool have had 12 penalties. By using the Non-penalty goal metric this levels the playing field. It sorts out the Gerrard's from the Suarez's (one a genuinely good striker and the other simply the 'penalty guy').

The guy has sat down and made his decision, he's been pretty honest, it does in fact say: "Non-penalty Goals". You may think penalty goals should be given the same weighting as non penalty goals (although ironically you bemoan Rooney for taking freekicks) but this guy clearly doesn't. Guess you don't always get your own way. If you like, you can create your own stats website with the metrics you think are legitimate.

Bizarrely the metric I used when making a simple comparison actually bumped Rooney down the list (compared to the total goals assisted/scored combined) and you still think it favours Rooney.
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I don't bemoan Rooney for taking free kicks, don't be ridiculous. I bemoan this supposedly levelling the playing field in one aspect but not doing it in another. Like I said earlier, does Aguero take corners? Does Suarez? Because if not then Rooney's getting a boost there due to the fact a number of his assists come from set pieces. Either include them all or don't.
 
acnumber9 said:
I don't bemoan Rooney for taking free kicks, don't be ridiculous. I bemoan this supposedly levelling the playing field in one aspect but not doing it in another. Like I said earlier, does Aguero take corners? Does Suarez? Because if not then Rooney's getting a boost there due to the fact a number of his assists come from set pieces. Either include them all or don't.
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Neither Suarez or Aguero have scored a penalty this season. This 'non penalty goal', only hurts Rooney and not the players you have just listed so the fact that it scrubs penalties is biased against Rooney and not for him.

As I said before. I wonder why penalty shoot out goals are not counted? They're all goals right? How about disallowed goals? Why should a player be denied a goal because someone stepped offside? Essentially we can draw a line in the sand, as a statician they have decided penalty goals is a poor measure of a player, they are also easily filterable. They haven't extended this to other things because I imagine they would class scoring a 30 yard free kick as a better metric of a players ability than a penalty. Therefore they can fully rationalise this decision.
 
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r0x0rwolfo said:
Neither Suarez or Aguero have scored a penalty this season. This 'non penalty goal', only hurts Rooney and not the players you have just listed so the fact that it scrubs penalties is biased against Rooney and not for him.

As I said before. I wonder why penalty shoot out goals are not counted? They're all goals right? How about disallowed goals? Why should a player be denied a goal because someone stepped offside? Essentially we can draw a line in the sand, as a statician they have decided penalty goals is a poor measure of a player, they are also easily filterable. They haven't extended this to other things because I imagine they would class scoring a 30 yard free kick as a better metric of a players ability than a penalty. Therefore they can fully rationalise this decision.
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Because penalty shoot outs aren't a part of every game. They're tacked on at the end to decide a game rather than a coin toss. You can't conduct a study on goals, ignore certain types of goals and come out with a valid study on goals. It's that simple.
 
acnumber9 said:
Because penalty shoot outs aren't a part of every game.
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Neither are penalties.
They're tacked on at the end to decide a game rather than a coin toss. You can't conduct a study on goals, ignore certain types of goals and come out with a valid study on goals. It's that simple.
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I don't think comparing penalties to a coin toss helps your case here. It's not 'ignoring' them, it's actually fully taking acount of them, making no distinction between penalty goals and Non penalty goals would be ignoring something. If you simply want to know 'total goals scored' then just go to the BBC top scorers website. I'm not sure why anyone would complain that someone is actually analysing the information.

It's not a 'study on goals'. But here is your 'valid study' on goals. Knock yourself out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers
 
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r0x0rwolfo said:
Neither are penalties.
I don't think comparing penalties to a coin toss helps your case here. It's not 'ignoring' them, it's actually fully taking acount of them, making no distinction between penalty goals and Non penalty goals would be ignoring something. If you simply want to know 'total goals scored' then just go to the BBC top scorers website. I'm not sure why anyone would complain that someone is actually analysing the information.

It's not a 'study on goals'. But here is your 'valid study' on goals. Knock yourself out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers
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This is incredibly tedious now. Good luck.
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
I don't buy it really. I've heard this argument but I don't think the eventually conclusion of the premier league winner which naturally relies on 1,000's of variables we can simply predict the winner as to whether Rooney is percieved as the 'top dog' at one of the football clubs. The best explantion is: 1 good player < 2 good players.
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Per earlier, I agree: he isn't spot on. But he's close. Sort of a 'right for the wrong reasons' close.
 
r0x0rwolfo said:
I am referring to this.


Ted Knutsons stats are legitimate. He's not lied. You have both misinterpreted 'scoring contribution' or 'scoring rate' for goalscoring ratio (a term he doesn't use). Scoring contribution is defined as NPG (none penalty goals) + assists per 90 minutes. He makes this quite clear in the article:

"182 shots, spread across 30 full games made for Rooney’s highest Shots per 90 in his career. 22 non-penalty goals coupled with 3 assists made for a scoring contribution of .82 per 90, an excellent total."

There's charts and everything.

Next time something looks wrong, actually read the article instead of calling the author.
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Why the feck would I assume he is talking about goals from open play plus assists, when NessunDorma said he is talking about goals from open play and reading that sentence on that link where he says he had the best ratio in the league it says nothing about including stats from assists(only in paragraph before), even NessunDorma who is "on Rooney's side" thought so.

Reading it again, does it say Rooney had the best ratio in the league, or that he had the best ratio in the league from United players? Because in both cases Chicharito was ahead of him, if you include Rooney's non penalty goals and ALL his assists, and compare it with JUST Hernandez goals stats, they are both on same ratio, every 95 minutes Roiney was either scoring or assisting, and Hernandez was scoring every 95 minutes. I don't even want to count with including Hernandez's assists, and he had five of those in total(and we know he isn't taking set pieces). Anyway, another proof that his stats are wrong.
And I can't find assist from open play, but considering van Persie had 15, and Rooney 11 assists in total, and van Persie's scoring ratio was much much better than Rooney's, I highly doubt he beat him even counting it as you said.
 
Why does he always get injured before the World Cup? It's insane.
 
Very convenient for ROoney to get injured just as RvP is getting fit. I bet Giggs asked Scholsey for a small favor!
 
I remember Ferguson saying - it might have been in his latest book - that Rooney was injured towards most of the end of the 2011/12 season, but that United had covered it up.

I wonder how much of his fluctuation in terms of performance is down to the fact that he has, throughout his career, often played while injured?
 
I thought it was the opposite, he was fit but they said he was injured. Not sure though.
 
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