Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[NessunDorma]

Even Rooney's staunchest supporters know that RVP is a better no9 that is why they bring up RVP's age and his proneness to injury.

Well, age and injury proneness do actually matter. You want your players out on the pitch, and not in the treatment room.

But if I was to make the case for Rooney being a better number 9, they aren't what i'd focus on.

I might point out that in 2011/12 and 2009/10 - the two most recent seasons in which Rooney played primarily as a No.9 - he averaged a goal every 104 minutes (in both).

In 2012/13, RvP averaged a goal every 120 minutes. In his previous season at Arsenal, it was a goal every 111 minutes.

These numbers suggest Rooney is more likely to get you goals in the position, and ultimately for a No.9, it's goals that are most important.

I might point out that in 2012/13, Rooney was more likely to finish 'clear cut chances' (53% converted) than RvP was (36% converted). This suggests that one of the reasons Rooney might have a better scoring rate than RvP is because he's much more more clinical - again, an attribute you want in a No.9.

Even in 2012/13, when he was supposed to have been crap, Rooney actually had a better scoring rate from open play than RvP, despite playing deeper.

People will then say that stats only tell us so much, and it's 'obvious' to the naked eye that RvP is better. And RvP is indeed a fantastic player capable of some amazing things. But so is Rooney, and if you ask me, his contributions are far too easily overlooked by some of our supporters, his middling games - and RvP has had a few as well - far too easily remembered.

Basically, i'm not saying Rooney is a better striker than RvP. It's a close run thing IMO, and I do think you can make a decent case either way. The point I am trying to get across is that this idea RvP is 'far' better than Rooney doesn't actually stack up.

 

[ZDwyr]

I've always had the impression that when Rooney is in the "no.10" he's just effectively played as a second striker. Not the furthest player forward on the pitch but at the same time not as a deep as your traditional no.10. Similar to how Aguero is used at times for City. He's played there more like a deep-lying forward rather than as an attacking/advanced midfielder.

Yeah I agree with his. He was basically in a side that played a 4-4-1-1 wasn't he? Not a no. 10 but not a striker either.

 

[Revan]

Well, age and injury proneness do actually matter. You want your players out on the pitch, and not in the treatment room.

But if I was to make the case for Rooney being a better number 9, they aren't what i'd focus on.

I might point out that in 2011/12 and 2009/10 - the two most recent seasons in which Rooney played primarily as a No.9 - he averaged a goal every 104 minutes (in both).

In 2012/13, RvP averaged a goal every 120 minutes. In his previous season at Arsenal, it was a goal every 111 minutes.

These numbers suggest Rooney is more likely to get you goals in the position, and ultimately for a No.9, it's goals that are most important.

I might point out that in 2012/13, Rooney was more likely to finish 'clear cut chances' (53% converted) than RvP was (36% converted). This suggests that one of the reasons Rooney might have a better scoring rate than RvP is because he's much more more clinical - again, an attribute you want in a No.9.

Even in 2012/13, when he was supposed to have been crap, Rooney actually had a better scoring rate from open play than RvP, despite playing deeper.

People will then say that stats only tell us so much, and it's 'obvious' to the naked eye that RvP is better. And RvP is indeed a fantastic player capable of some amazing things. But so is Rooney, and if you ask me, his contributions are far too easily overlooked by some of our supporters, his middling games - and RvP has had a few as well - far too easily remembered.

Basically, i'm not saying Rooney is a better striker than RvP. It's a close run thing IMO, and I do think you can make a decent case either way. The point I am trying to get across is that this idea RvP is 'far' better than Rooney doesn't actually stack up.

Nice stats to be fair, wasn't expecting to be like this at all. I still think that Robin as a striker is way beter though, his all round game IMO is a big difference.

However, the biggest thing that goes against Rooney in my eyes is his level. When he is out of form, he is really a bad player. Not bad by his standards, but bad by any standard, like below EPL standard average striker. However, this doesn't happen quite often (like 5 times in a year) but he is painful to watch on those games.

On the other side, I think that Rooney is better than RVP on big matches with big pressure. The game against Bayern might be used as a counter-example, but everyone knew that Rooney isn't fit. He is a really great player in most of the big matches though.

It would be interesting what will happen. I can see him clashing with Van Gaal if things don't go right but Van Gaal is versatile in his lineups and as far as I know he prefers his No.10 to be a goalscorer which might suit Rooney. On the other side, Mata is good at scoring goals too and his all round play is superior so it will really be a big decision from Van Gaal to be made. I guess it will be whoever of them performs better, which is a better thing to make judgement rather on how much we like/hate players or what are their wages.

 

[markhrad]

It is human nature to exaggerate so as to emphasize a point, however, I said better not "far" better. The fact is no other player, that I can think of, has ever evoked such different emotional responses from Utd fans as has Rooney.
Personally I think he is overrated. Any good player given the same opportunities as Rooney has would have similar results. Do you not think Tevez or a healthy Saha would have been that different?
Also his technical ability can be truly woeful. No other top player I can think of has such a poor first touch. A first touch in many cases, for a striker, is the difference between a goalscoring opportunity/ assist and a lost opportunity.
Yes we an talk about his work rate and passion for the game but for a striker not to have an excellent first touch, for me, is unforgiveable.

 

[NessunDorma]

Personally I think he is overrated. Any good player given the same opportunities as Rooney has would have similar results.

I think these days he is, if anything, slightly underrated. And i'm not just saying that to be contrary. There are people in the 'English media' (which is supposedly this hotbed of pro-Rooney hype) seriously arguing for him to be dropped from the England team to make way for Jay Rodriguez and Adam Lallana, for example.

And while it's easy to say 'any good player' could have reproduced Rooney's numbers over the last 10 years, the fact is none of them have. Not Berba, not Tevez, not Saha, not Hernandez. Why? Because in the opinion of the management, they obviously weren't considered good enough to displace him from the team.

Also his technical ability can be truly woeful.

And I think this is where the surfeit of attention given to him counts against him, as much as it benefits him. In that Rooney's bad touches/games/passes are simply much more memorable than others players' are, given he is England's and United's most high profile and most scrutinised player. Let us not forget that he also has a rare technical brilliance as well, not least when it comes to things like shooting from distance, volleying the ball, and playing long passes.

Yes we an talk about his work rate and passion for the game but for a striker not to have an excellent first touch, for me, is unforgiveable.

Like all Wayne Rooney offers is 'work rate and passion' (although these things aren't to be sniffed at, and are a key ingredient to any good player). He also offers goals, a good degree of creativity, intelligent movement, versatility and at this stage of his career, bags of experience at winning things.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

FFS does this mean another summer of will he wont he.

http://thepeoplesperson.com/2014/04...anchester-united-future-under-louis-van-gaal/

 

[NessunDorma]

FFS does this mean another summer of will he wont he.

http://thepeoplesperson.com/2014/04...anchester-united-future-under-louis-van-gaal/

It's all based on a Mail article that has no quotes whatsoever. Not even quotes from the obligatory anonymous 'sources close to the player'. The author simply uses the phrase 'believed to be' in ascribing the fears to Rooney.

It's possible that he's heard something on the grapevine of course, or even something from the horses mouth. It's also possible that it's all just guess work designed to get Rooney's name in the paper, thus drumming up hits.

 

[sullydnl]

Would he not be right to fear for his future under VG?

From what I've heard VG usually operates with a 4-3-3, no? Obviously he'll favour RvP for the central striker role so where does Rooney fit in unless he plays out of position? This is a problem being played out of position is what pissed Rooney off last season, apparently.

Even if Rooney does agree to be played out of position, Van Gaal would have to wonder if he wouldn't be better off selling Rooney and bringing in someone who is a more natural fit for what he wants.

 

[Amar__]

Well, age and injury proneness do actually matter. You want your players out on the pitch, and not in the treatment room.

But if I was to make the case for Rooney being a better number 9, they aren't what i'd focus on.

I might point out that in 2011/12 and 2009/10 - the two most recent seasons in which Rooney played primarily as a No.9 - he averaged a goal every 104 minutes (in both).

In 2012/13, RvP averaged a goal every 120 minutes. In his previous season at Arsenal, it was a goal every 111 minutes.

These numbers suggest Rooney is more likely to get you goals in the position, and ultimately for a No.9, it's goals that are most important.

I might point out that in 2012/13, Rooney was more likely to finish 'clear cut chances' (53% converted) than RvP was (36% converted). This suggests that one of the reasons Rooney might have a better scoring rate than RvP is because he's much more more clinical - again, an attribute you want in a No.9.

Even in 2012/13, when he was supposed to have been crap, Rooney actually had a better scoring rate from open play than RvP, despite playing deeper.

People will then say that stats only tell us so much, and it's 'obvious' to the naked eye that RvP is better. And RvP is indeed a fantastic player capable of some amazing things. But so is Rooney, and if you ask me, his contributions are far too easily overlooked by some of our supporters, his middling games - and RvP has had a few as well - far too easily remembered.

Basically, i'm not saying Rooney is a better striker than RvP. It's a close run thing IMO, and I do think you can make a decent case either way. The point I am trying to get across is that this idea RvP is 'far' better than Rooney doesn't actually stack up.

I see you are still sharing false stats from that site.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

ESPN on Val Gaal's tactics:



http://www.espnfc.com/manager/_/id/99/louis-van-gaal?cc=5739

Given that Wayne Rooney:

1. Is one of the more versatile players around at the moment (and therefore can be easily 'juggled')
2. Is more than willing to press opposition defenders, as we have seen this season
3. Loves to get the ball out wide
4. Is fantastic on the counter-attack, as numerous examples show

Why are people just assuming that Van Gaal won't fancy him or find a role for him?

Because he's Rooney, and half the people on the Caf have seemed to have lost their marbles.

 

[wr8_utd]

So a 3 page debate stemming from a report from the very reliable Daily Mail that says Rooney "might" be unhappy?

 

[Zen86]

Will Rooney get the wages he's on now anywhere else?

No.

Case closed, he's staying.

 

[NessunDorma]

I see you are still sharing false stats from that site.

There's nothing false about the stats, AFAIK. I initially misread them to say that Rooney had the best goals per minute ratio from open play in the league in 2012/13. But what it appears to say - and what i've said here - is that Rooney's goals per minute ratio from open play in 2012/13 was better than Van Persie's.

Are you saying Knutson is wrong on this count? What are the actual numbers?

 

[Keeps It tidy]

This reminds me of when people assumed Pep would not have any use for Robben. Van Gall will find a role for Rooney. Especially since with his wages Rooney is not going anywhere.

 

[mazhar13]

If we are comparing Rooney and van Persie as strikers, I don't see much of a difference between them. van Persie on his bad day is as bad as, if not worse, than Rooney on his bad day. Rooney on his good day is as good as, if not better, than van Persie on his good day. Both have pretty good first touches and close control when on form, though van Persie is a better dribbler than Rooney. I'd say that Rooney is a better goalscorer than van Persie but only just.

However, Rooney's been at his best when he's given the freedom to play as a forward. He's not the best at staying up at the defenders. The same goes for van Persie and anyone who isn't tall, big, and strong. Given this, Rooney needs to freedom to move around and link up with players, everywhere. Against Norwich, by being given that freedom, he was dragging the opposition defenders around and creating space for Mata, Kagawa, and Welbeck to exploit. van Persie has played like Rooney has for Arsenal: moving all around, creating space for Fabregas, Walcott, etc., to score, and linking up with players everywhere rather than staying up at the defenders like a target man. When van Persie wasn't available for Arsenal, they suffered because they didn't have someone who would drag players around and create space for others to exploit. When van Persie and Rooney both played as strikers under Moyes, both were poor because both were playing like target men: both offered little movement and were only dealing with defenders physically rather than with finesse.

Rooney works well as a deep-lying forward because he gets into positions to drag opposition defenders away and create space for others to exploit. He ghosts into areas the defenders do not cover. That's why he works so well, there. As a lone striker, he'll be good when given freedom and when he has runners beyond him, and that goes for Bayern Munich with Muller up front, too.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

ESPN on Val Gaal's tactics:



http://www.espnfc.com/manager/_/id/99/louis-van-gaal?cc=5739

Given that Wayne Rooney:

1. Is one of the more versatile players around at the moment (and therefore can be easily 'juggled')
2. Is more than willing to press opposition defenders, as we have seen this season
3. Loves to get the ball out wide
4. Is fantastic on the counter-attack, as numerous examples show

Why are people just assuming that Van Gaal won't fancy him or find a role for him?

This is a myth. He used to be versatile. Now, not so much. He's poor as a CM; inadequate as a playmaker (Mata/Kagawa are so much better in that role); God help us if we tried him on the wing, he can't dribble or run for shit these days.

 

[Amar__]

There's nothing false about the stats, AFAIK. I initially misread them to say that Rooney had the best goals per minute ratio from open play in the league in 2012/13. But what it appears to say - and what i've said here - is that Rooney's goals per minute ratio from open play in 2012/13 was better than Van Persie's.

Are you saying Knutson is wrong on this count? What are the actual numbers?

I proved you last time that he wasn't even in top5 in the league, and again, simple math proves he didn't have better ratio than van Persie:

Van Persie played 3123 minutes in 2012/13, scored 26(3 from penalties), therefore 23 in 3123 minutes = goal every 136 minutes.

Rooney played 2014 minutes, scored 12(1 from penalty), therefore 11 in 2014 minutes = goal every 180 minutes . It's not even close.

 

[girish]

Rooney can feckoff.

 

[Giggsforever]

Rooney player of the season. He can stay and become the most scoring United player of all time. Fantastic player.

 

[NessunDorma]

I proved you last time that he wasn't even in top5 in the league, and again, simple math proves he didn't have better ratio than van Persie:

Van Persie played 3123 minutes in 2012/13, scored 26(3 from penalties), therefore 23 in 3123 minutes = goal every 136 minutes.

Rooney played 2014 minutes, scored 12(1 from penalty), therefore 11 in 2014 minutes = goal every 180 minutes . It's not even close.

Yeah, okay. But it's Ted Knutson - who's usually quite reliable, and works in statistics professionally - who's got that wrong. I've only linked to it in good faith.

But the stats about Rooney's goals per minute ratio in 2011/12 and 2009/10 being better than RvP's in 2012/13 and 2011/12 are definitely right. I know that, because I calculated them myself.

 

[Amar__]

Yeah, okay. But it's Ted Knutson - who's usually quite reliable, and works in statistics professionally - who's got that wrong. I've only linked to it in good faith.

But the stats about Rooney's goals per minute ratio in 2011/12 and 2009/10 being better than RvP's in 2012/13 and 2011/12 are definitely right. I know that, because I calculated them myself.

From what I have read there, he sure makes things up to prove his point.

 

[NessunDorma]

This is a myth. He used to be versatile. Now, not so much. He's poor as a CM; inadequate as a playmaker (Mata/Kagawa are so much better in that role); God help us if we tried him on the wing, he can't dribble or run for shit these days.

As an AMC this season, he's played 25 games, scoring 11 goals, and getting 10 assists (the 'much better' Kagawa has played 5 games there, with no goals and no assists from that specific position)

As an out and out forward, he's played 11 games, scoring 8 goals, and getting 3 assists.

This is according to WhoScored.

So straight away, there's an example of him producing great numbers in two different positions.

He can also do a job in midfield, and has on numerous occasions, under both Ferguson and Moyes. Not an elite midfielder by any stretch, but better there than many other strikes would be.

So no, I don't think his versatility is a 'myth' at all. He's an excellent striker, a more than adequate No.10, and a passable midfielder under certain conditions.

 

[NessunDorma]

From what I have read there, he sure makes things up to prove his point.

Care to give a few examples?

 

[Redo91]

Rooney player of the season. He can stay and become the most scoring United player of all time. Fantastic player.

David De Gea says hi.

 

[Amar__]

Care to give a few examples?

Are you kidding me? I just gave you an example.

 

[markhrad]

I love this. No matter how valid the points, those on opposite sides of the Rooney argument will not change their opinion.
I can't wait for the World Cup. When Rooney again fails to show even a fair performance, then I think even his most obdurate of supporters will finally give up on him.

 

[Mister Ed]

I love this. No matter how valid the points, those on opposite sides of the Rooney argument will not change their opinion.
I can't wait for the World Cup. When Rooney again fails to show even a fair performance, then I think even his most obdurate of supporters will finally give up on him.

Why ? I care what he does for United not for England.

 

[AttackingFlair]

It is human nature to exaggerate so as to emphasize a point, however, I said better not "far" better. The fact is no other player, that I can think of, has ever evoked such different emotional responses from Utd fans as has Rooney.
Personally I think he is overrated. Any good player given the same opportunities as Rooney has would have similar results. Do you not think Tevez or a healthy Saha would have been that different?
Also his technical ability can be truly woeful. No other top player I can think of has such a poor first touch. A first touch in many cases, for a striker, is the difference between a goalscoring opportunity/ assist and a lost opportunity.
Yes we an talk about his work rate and passion for the game but for a striker not to have an excellent first touch, for me, is unforgiveable.

Just as well then that only Luis Suarez has scored/assisted more often than him this season. Not to mention how poor we have been compared to the other top teams.

Combined goal/assists:

Suarez 42
Rooney 27
Sturridge 27
Y.Toure 25
Gerrard 23
Aguero 22
Giroud 22
Hazard 21
Lambert 21
Lukaku 19

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Changing the subject.....I for one am quite excited about something I've been hoping to see for a long time, Rooney is so close to completing a season without really doing anything incredibly stupid and/or twatish!! No unnecessary red cards, professional attitude all season, no leaks from his camp about how unfair life is......well done Wayne!

 

[Snow]

Changing the subject.....I for one am quite excited about something I've been hoping to see for a long time, Rooney is so close to completing a season without really doing anything incredibly stupid and/or twatish!! No unnecessary red cards, professional attitude all season, no leaks from his camp about how unfair life is......well done Wayne!

Professional attitude all season? You sure about that? There has been talk about a lot of unprofessional behavior behind the scenes, including a player showing up for training somewhat drunk and not getting punished for it (Rooney is a big player and is known to drink beer during the season). Was plenty of a twat in pre-season.

 

[Plugsy]

I love this. No matter how valid the points, those on opposite sides of the Rooney argument will not change their opinion.
I can't wait for the World Cup. When Rooney again fails to show even a fair performance, then I think even his most obdurate of supporters will finally give up on him.

Rooney has been consistently one of our best players for nearly decade now. What sort of prat judges people by how they look in a shite England team?

I don't get this anti-Rooney sentiment from United fans, what's the point in proving that one of our best players is crap for the last few years. If you think Rooney's crap then the opinion some of these 'fans' have about United can't have been very high over the years.

 

[Giggsforever]

David De Gea says hi.

Please tell him I said hi.

De Gea has not put one foot wrong all season, so I can agree with that. But, at least for the out field players, he is player of the season.

 

[NessunDorma]

Are you kidding me? I just gave you an example.

No, you gave an example of, at worst, Knutson getting one of his sums wrong - although his sentence is so ambiguously worded its hard to know what exactly he meant by it.

It wasn't an example of him 'making things up to prove his point'. And considering he works in sports analytics professionally, I highly doubt he would ever resort to 'making things up' anyway.

 

[Black Adder]

Why ? I care what he does for United not for England.

True, and so far he's been pretty good for United over the years.

Professional attitude all season? You sure about that? There has been talk about a lot of unprofessional behavior behind the scenes, including a player showing up for training somewhat drunk and not getting punished for it (Rooney is a big player and is known to drink beer during the season). Was plenty of a twat in pre-season.

Gossip stuff, great.

 

[markhrad]

Rooney has been consistently one of our best players for nearly decade now. What sort of prat judges people by how they look in a shite England team?

I don't get this anti-Rooney sentiment from United fans, what's the point in proving that one of our best players is crap for the last few years. If you think Rooney's crap then the opinion some of these 'fans' have about United can't have been very high over the years.

The kind of "prat" that realizes any good player if placed in Rooney's position would have equally excelled in a Utd jersey, thus to truly assess Rooney's ability one needs to observe how he performs when surrounded by lesser teammates.
A great player would at least show moments of individual brilliance. He does not.
I did not say he was crap but I do think he is over-rated and to question someone's loyalty to Utd or opinion of the team because they do not rate Rooney as highly as you do is at the very least over-reaching.

 

[Amar__]

No, you gave an example of, at worst, Knutson getting one of his sums wrong - although his sentence is so ambiguously worded its hard to know what exactly he meant by it.

It wasn't an example of him 'making things up to prove his point'. And considering he works in sports analytics professionally, I highly doubt he would ever resort to 'making things up' anyway.

He repeated twice how Rooney had the best ratio in the league, it's really not that hard to get what he was trying to say.

...
Robin van Persie won another golden boot, but when you strip out penalties… the best scoring rate in the league belonged to Wayne.
....
Hot on the heels of possibly his best season, and a year in which Rooney secretly lead the league in scoring...


You can call it how you want, but he presents fake stats, and shares it with people, therefore he lies, intentionally or not, I don't care.

 

[markhrad]

Read that Rooney asked club officials not to hire LVG. Not sure of its validity.

 

[Rednotdead]

Read that Rooney asked club officials not to hire LVG. Not sure of its validity.

I could imagine that scenario, given RVP's friendship with Van Gaal. It might mean Rooney being demoted to no.2 striker, plus RVP could be made captain which wouldn't go down well with Rooney.

I could see a situation where Chelsea might submit a bid for Rooney the day after Van Gaal is appointed, just to further unsettle Rooney and test his thinking on the matter.

All conjecture on my part however.

 

[markhrad]

I believed, at the time, that Mourinho's interest in Rooney was done solely to unsettle us. Jose loves his mind games.
I would like to know if it is true about Rooney petitioning against LVG's appointment. If it is and LVG is still hired then Rooney's position would be untenable.

 

[itso 7]

I could imagine that scenario, given RVP's friendship with Van Gaal. It might mean Rooney being demoted to no.2 striker, plus RVP could be made captain which wouldn't go down well with Rooney.

I could see a situation where Chelsea might submit a bid for Rooney the day after Van Gaal is appointed, just to further unsettle Rooney and test his thinking on the matter.

All conjecture on my part however.

That would be disapointing if did that and the club will have no option but to sell him, if he determines who our manager should be then we might as well name him Executive Chairman . If true it would be worse than all other silly little things he's done in the past, if true....