Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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OGkush said:
To me they're as close as they can be.
Right now Rooney's in a better form, earlier on it was RvP.

Neither of them are "clearly" the better player, although IMO they're both clearly the 2 best players in the PL.

I'm just happy we got them both, and hopefully with Rooney in form RvP can find it again just in time for Madrid.

If I had to choose one though I'd go for Rooney in terms of overall importance to the team, but it's an incredibily tough call, RvP is pure class.
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I think RVP is a better player, certainly a better striker.

But, I also think that what Rooney is very, very good at is more important to us than what RVP is very, very good at.

If we were to sell RVP in the summer, which we obviously aren't going to do, we would be able to replace what he brings to us much, much more easily than if we were to sell Rooney.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I think RVP is a better player, certainly a better striker.

But, I also think that what Rooney is very, very good at is more important to us than what RVP is very, very good at.

If we were to sell RVP in the summer, which we obviously aren't going to do, we would be able to replace what he brings to us much, much more easily than if we were to sell Rooney.
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RvP strictly as a striker is better than Rooney, then again apart from Falcao and the 2 demigods who can actualy compete with him at the moment?

However as highly as I rate RvP and as happy as I am that we signed him, I still wouldn't pick him over Rooney unless we're talking about them purely from a striker perspective (goals, finishing, etc.).
And again, I feel like I must write this down again, there's verry little, or should I say almost next to nothing that really seperates them.

I mean, one's better at one thing, the other in another, but all in all it's really a tough decision.

I know a lot of people dissagree, some might even not acknowledge Rooney as our best player simply because of the fact they dislike him, and I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from RvP when typing this, however if I had to pick one Rooney would be my pick.

Obviously we're incredibly lucky to have both, and honestly if we were to become more solid in the defense department I have a lot of faith in those 2 and their ability to bring us another CL trophy before SAF calls it a day :)


I agree on the part where you said finding an adequate replacement for Rooney is tougher than for any other United player simply because he does it all. Finding a player that does it all is infact harder than finding a genuine born goalscorer :) (even though the one, or should I say two (Cheech) we have are fecking deadly in front of goal)
 
Lovely to see him coming into some good form, as everyone is saying. The more matches he plays, the better form he'll have.
As for the Real Madrid game, I'd rather have him playing a strikers role with Van Persie, and only really coming deep if we really need him.
 
OGkush said:
RvP strictly as a striker is better than Rooney, then again apart from Falcao and the 2 demigods who can actualy compete with him at the moment?

However as highly as I rate RvP and as happy as I am that we signed him, I still wouldn't pick him over Rooney unless we're talking about them purely from a striker perspective (goals, finishing, etc.).
And again, I feel like I must write this down again, there's verry little, or should I say almost next to nothing that really seperates them.

I mean, one's better at one thing, the other in another, but all in all it's really a tough decision.

I know a lot of people dissagree, some might even not acknowledge Rooney as our best player simply because of the fact they dislike him, and I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from RvP when typing this, however if I had to pick one Rooney would be my pick.

Obviously we're incredibly lucky to have both, and honestly if we were to become more solid in the defense department I have a lot of faith in those 2 and their ability to bring us another CL trophy before SAF calls it a day :)


I agree on the part where you said finding an adequate replacement for Rooney is tougher than for any other United player simply because he does it all. Finding a player that does it all is infact harder than finding a genuine born goalscorer :) (even though the one, or should I say two (Cheech) we have are fecking deadly in front of goal)
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I'd say, money no object, you could replace RVP with Falcao, Cavani or Zlatan and not suffer too much. Again, I'm not saying that's what we should do. Just the would give us similar to what RVP does and are at or very close to his level.

Rooney, I don't know, I can't think of a single player in the world that could give us what he does. He has a very unique skill set and it makes him crucial in how we play.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'd say, money no object, you could replace RVP with Falcao, Cavani or Zlatan and not suffer too much. Again, I'm not saying that's what we should do. Just the would give us similar to what RVP does and are at or very close to his level.

Rooney, I don't know, I can't think of a single player in the world that could give us what he does. He has a very unique skill set and it makes him crucial in how we play.
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Diagree with every part of this post. If you can easily replace RVP, you can easily replace Rooney. Using fancy ideas like a "unique skill set" doesn't change that, I mean what is really unique about Rooney's skill set anyway :confused:
 
I think NinjaFletch has a point here - yes, it's hard to define that 'skillset' that doesn't really set him apart from the others in his bracket (on the contrary, his competitors like RvP and Ibrahimovic are much more skilled players when on the ball), but his style of play is unlike any other player in the world. He defends until the last breath and beyond, contributes hugely to wing play (RvP and Cavani also do this, but Ibra and Falcao are solely central) and drops deeper than any other player of his sort, making him impossible to negate (eg. Ronaldo is a better player, much better, but can be isolated upfront and ineffective when deep). He is the heartbeat of our team in that he has been here for 9 years and is familiar with how we play (wingplay etc) and clearly has a passion for this club (regardless of the saga of 2010).

One can definitely argue that Ibra, Falcao and RvP are all better than him (just as I would argue he is better than all of them), but surely it's very obvious that he is a totally unique player? No one quite fulfills the role he does for us, week in, week out, which is why he is so valuable to us. His value to say, Real Madrid, would be less than to us for example, because he suits us to a tee. With him on the pitch, we go into every game with a player the opposition cannot match in terms of the ability to change a game regardless of position or form - until we play Barca, that is.
 
The way you talk about him - heartbeat of the team, defending to the last breath, contributing on the wing, dropping deep etc. - you make him sound like Dirk Kuyt.

I disagree that RVP is a 'much more skilled player on the ball'. Rooney's touch can be a bit ropey when he hasn't had a run of games, but when he's in form it's sublime. RVP's shooting technique is better, no question, but the way Rooney can bring a ball down and shift it away from his man in one movement is at least as good as him.

Yes Rooney does the gritty stuff as well, but he's also amazing on the ball and a superb passer, as well as an excellent finisher.

What he's lost is, without doubt, his explosiveness - his ability to burst past players with acceleration and footwork. That's a real shame. But he's still an absolutely brilliant footballer.
 
Cantona'sCollar said:
with him on the pitch we go into every game with a player the opposition cannot match in terms of the ability to change a game regardless of position or form - until we play Barca, that is.
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I'm sorry but I gotta laugh, what a crock. :lol:

As pletch said, you made him sound more like Kuyt. I don't buy this unique skill-set nonsense and despite the fact that I am a huge fan of Rooney (obviously), if I had to choose between one of Rooney or RVP missing the games vs. Madrid, well it wouldn't be the Dutchman.
 
RvP's been outstanding in the big games this season, pretty much scored in them all? I'd pick him quite comfortably, but we'll play both anyway, even if that means Rooney on the left.
 
I understand fully what Pletch is saying about Rooney being more of a key player for us than he would to another big team. He's part of our DNA and we usually under-perform when he's out. I think that's clear to see.
 
Plechazunga said:
When he plays well, we tend to play well, and he almost always steps it up in big games.
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And when Scholes plays well, we tend to play well. When Carrick plays well, we tend to play well. If Kagawa plays well, I reckon we'll tend to play well too.

And he doesn't almost always steps it up in big games, whereas RVP this season has shown me much of what we've been lacking in the big games before we got him, no doubt, just look at his record in the big games for us.
 
I agree with most of Plech is saying, but I'll add that questioning which of Rooney or RVP you'd drop seems silly considering they're so different.
 
Van Persie has been better than him this season and he was better than him last season as well. I'd actually say it's van Persie who is more likely to create something out of nothing and we depend more on him right now than on Rooney, unique skillset or not (I don't think it even exists, he has pretty normal attributes for a striker who likes to drop deep).
 
Sarni said:
Van Persie has been better than him this season and he was better than him last season as well. I'd actually say it's van Persie who is more likely to create something out of nothing and we depend more on him right now than on Rooney, unique skillset or not (I don't think it even exists, he has pretty normal attributes for a striker who likes to drop deep).
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Indeed.
 
I'm always right said:
This just isn't true Pletch, it's as though you've convinced yourself that this is the case. We've played very well in games this season without Rooney.
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It's been the case for the past three or so seasons. This season we coped very well because we signed a world class talent in RVP, who has been in red hot form.
 
Shark22 said:
It's been the case for the past three or so seasons. This season we coped very well because we signed a world class talent in RVP.
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And Kagawa of course.

So my point stands, we don't look laboured and and uninspired without him this term. Not at all. I'd argue there's plenty of times in other terms too, like when Nani and Berba were in red hot form and Rooney was garbage. Maybe we needed him more in the past few seasons though for inspiration due to the replacements when he was missing.

Obviously we're a better team when a talent like Rooney is in good form, that's a no brainer, but the idea that we look laboured and uninspired when he doesn't play just isn't true, and certainly not this year anyway.
 
I'm always right said:
And when Scholes plays well, we tend to play well. When Carrick plays well, we tend to play well. If Kagawa plays well, I reckon we'll tend to play well too.
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Scholes that used to be true of... no longer. Carrick, not really - he's very consistent and is often good when the team isn't. Though it's true that when he plays badly we tend to too. Kagawa, feck knows, hopefully you're right.

I'm always right said:
And he doesn't almost always steps it up in big games
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OH yes he DOES...

Sarni said:
Van Persie has been better than him this season and he was better than him last season as well. I'd actually say it's van Persie who is more likely to create something out of nothing and we depend more on him right now than on Rooney, unique skillset or not (I don't think it even exists, he has pretty normal attributes for a striker who likes to drop deep).
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RVP might be more likely to create something out of nothing, yes. But Rooney is more likely to dictate our entire game.

I'm always right said:
This just isn't true Pletch, it's as though you've convinced yourself that this is the case. We've played very well in games this season without Rooney.
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That's irrelevant, because I'm not claiming that we never play well without him.

In fact we've barely played really well at all this season. Yes we were good against Wigan, but the other standout performances (or, more accurately, first-half performances) were Chelsea, City and Newcastle away - all games he played in.

Shark22 said:
I understand fully what people are saying about Rooney being more of a key player for us than he would to another big team. He's part of our DNA and we usually under-perform when he's out. I think that's clear to see.
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This
 
I'm always right said:
And Kagawa of course.

So my point stands, we don't look laboured and and uninspired without him this term. Not at all. I'd argue there's plenty of times in other terms too, like when Nani and Berba were in red hot form and Rooney was garbage.

Obviously we're a better team when a talent like Rooney is in good form, that's a no brainer, but the idea that we look laboured and uninspired when he doesn't play just isn't true, certainly not this year anyway.
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Which is a fantastic and goes to show that we've improved immensely since 2009/10 onwards. Sure, RVP has given us that Ronaldo-like factor that we were missing and Kagawa(although not yet adapted) has contributed too. However I think that we are playing much better football these days as a team, as much as people like to say that we're playing shit. The likes of Cleverly, Rafa and Heranadez have also been brilliant.
 
Shark22 said:
Which is a fantastic and goes to show that we've improved immensely since 2009/10 onwards. Sure, RVP has given us that Ronaldo-like factor that we were missing and Kagawa(although not yet adapted) has contributed too. However I think that we are playing much better football these days as a team, as much as people like to say that we're playing shit.
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Yeah I'm one of those people, I don't think we're playing well as a team at all.

We played some beautiful intricate passing football at the very beginning of last season. We never got back to that, but were decent, with Valencia in particular terrorising defences.

This season we've just had no real cohesion or invention that I can see, just moments of genius from the strikers punctuating large spells of either stagnant passing out to the wings and back again, or being totally overrun and shipping goals.
 
I know what people mean with the unique skill set. He is the only player in the game right now who can play as both a striker and a true midfielder at the same time. We aren't talking about someone who can play the number ten role more someone who will start a move from our penalty box and then be the one to finish the move at the end. The thing is sometimes it is better than a number ten while other times it would be better for him to just stay up top.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah I'm one of those people, I don't think we're playing well as a team at all.

We played some beautiful intricate passing football at the very beginning of last season. We never got back to that, but were decent, with Valencia in particular terrorising defences.

This season we've just had no real cohesion or invention that I can see, just moments of genius from the strikers punctuating large spells of either stagnant passing out to the wings and back again, or being totally overrun and shipping goals.
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That's harsh, Plech. Certainly bursts of beauty, channeled through the strikers of course, but with significant contributions from Carrick, Cleverley, Kagawa, Ando, Giggs. Fact that our wingers have been so unrelentingly shit has maybe offered up the central route as a possibly more productive route.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah I'm one of those people, I don't think we're playing well as a team at all.

We played some beautiful intricate passing football at the very beginning of last season. We never got back to that, but were decent, with Valencia in particular terrorising defences.

This season we've just had no real cohesion or invention that I can see, just moments of genius from the strikers punctuating large spells of either stagnant passing out to the wings and back again, or being totally overrun and shipping goals.
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I'm of the opinion that that period has been vastly overrated, but that's for another thread.
 
Shark22 said:
Which is a fantastic and goes to show that we've improved immensely since 2009/10 onwards. Sure, RVP has given us that Ronaldo-like factor that we were missing and Kagawa(although not yet adapted) has contributed too. However I think that we are playing much better football these days as a team, as much as people like to say that we're playing shit. The likes of Cleverly, Rafa and Heranadez have also been brilliant.
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Aye.
 
paceme said:
I know what people mean with the unique skill set. He is the only player in the game right now who can play as both a striker and a true midfielder at the same time. We aren't talking about someone who can play the number ten role more someone who will start a move from our penalty box and then be the one to finish the move at the end. The thing is sometimes it is better than a number ten while other times it would be better for him to just stay up top.
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A true midfielder? Rooney?
 
He can play in the hole, up top, on the wing, in midfield, he's probably even decent at full-back.

He's best as a number ten, but he's just a brilliant all-round footballer.

The only thing missing is his old dribbling. I also feel he doesn't strike the ball as well from distance as he did, which is bizarre... but last time I claimed that someone wheeled some stats out to show he hasn't really dropped off in long-range goals.
 
Still ill said:
That's harsh, Plech. Certainly bursts of beauty, channeled through the strikers of course, but with significant contributions from Carrick, Cleverley, Kagawa, Ando, Giggs. Fact that our wingers have been so unrelentingly shit has maybe offered up the central route as a possibly more productive route.
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I just haven't seen it. Some excellent individual performances in midfield, yes, especially from Giggs and Carrick. But not much in the way of really slick, creative interplay.
 
I'm always right said:
Not for me, he's best as a striker, as he was for England last night and as he was in his best ever United season.
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I think he's very efficient as a striker, but what I like best about him when he's on song is that he runs the game. You can't really do that from up top. You get a lot of goals from him but you miss out on a lot of his passing and invention.
 
paceme said:
What's your point? He plays deeper than the usual number 10, in what could be defined as a true midfield role rather than an attacking midfield role.
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My point is, he plays as a number 10, just as Kagawa does, just as loads of players do all over Europe. He isn't a striker and a true midfielder at the same time.
 
I'm always right said:
My point is, he plays as a number 10, just as Kagawa does, just as loads of players do all over Europe. He isn't a striker and a true midfielder at the same time.
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No he doesn't. He doesn't play anything like Kagawa, or say Ozil. You are presumably just basing that on the fact he starts behind the striker. He contributes more to a midfield than a usual number 10.
 
Plechazunga said:
I think he's very efficient as a striker, but what I like best about him when he's on song is that he runs the game. You can't really do that from up top. You get a lot of goals from him but you miss out on a lot of his passing and invention.
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For me his dribbling aint as good as many of the best number 10's and his incisive passing isn't either, that's why I prefer him up top.
 
paceme said:
No he doesn't. He doesn't play anything like Kagawa, or say Ozil. You are presumably just basing that on the fact he starts behind the striker. He contributes more to a midfield than a usual number 10.
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Kagawa contributes more to the midfield than Rooney in that role.
 
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