Rooney has been great so far this season. Didn't have a great one yesterday, lets lay all the blame on him. Bloody hell.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
- Start date
- Status
He was poor yesterday and not great against Sunderland.
It's not a case of getting on his back by the way, but everyone should be treated equally. Nani was looking quite productive, but was subbed off after little over an hour, while Rooney had a comparatively poor game, yet stayed on until 85 minutes.
There's also a very real debate to be had about whether playing him alongside van Persie is harming our ability to control games.
Blame Moyes, he picks the team not Rooney. (I don't mean blame Moyes as get on his back but you know what I mean).
Also, don't get caught up in the media storm about Rooney and his favoured position. Moyes picks the team, Rooney plays where he is told.
In that case, I expect Moyes to show a bit more backbone and deploy Rooney deeper. If Moyes is worried about putting Rooney's nose out of joint, then it's not a sustainable situation, and it's better that the player is moved on, in my opinion. Moyes needs to have a squad that he can exercise his authority over.
His position is an issue but you're completely right, it's up to Moyes to decide where he plays for United. He's the manager and he has to have the bollocks to occasionally upset Rooney or Van Persie either by not picking them, playing one of them withdrawn or subbing them off to benefit the team and so far he hasn't shown that.
Good post LR7.
He's not been great at all. He's had a very good start to the season. He's had three - consecutive - poor games. Context is key.
He's not been great at all. He's had a very good start to the season. He's had three - consecutive - poor games. Context is key.
It's funny how playing comparatively well to the dogshit he served all last season has led to so much hyperbole about his form this season, as if our standards suddenly dropped.
On the contrary should the two central midfielders be combining to fill that space properly? Yeah he should probably be dropping back to link up play but the cat is out of the bag with the midfield not being mobile enough. It's obvious Carrick doesn't run the ball ever (I mean EVER) and Fellaini is just coming to grips with his new team. I mean why the feck is he so close to Carrick?
I don't really think this is selfishness on Rooney's part. If he is to deep then he's not playing close enough to RVP and would probably be pointed out.
This is true. People eulogised over his performance agains Chelsea earlier in the season, when he was merely the best of an average bunch.
Given the situation, I think he has been very good. Great? Ok you can argue that but the point stands, especially given how it could have played out. He has been one of our better players this season so far.
If it was a midfield three playing behind a lone striker then that would be the job of the most advanced midfielder but not with two CMs who already have a lot of ground to cover and are already often exposed and would be even moreso if one was having to fill the gap behind the strikers as well. That's the 'hole' and as a number 10 Rooney should be playing in the hole not as an out and out centre forward. Given that our midfield is quite weak it's more important that he drops to offer them support and offers himself as an outlet but he's running behind the defenders at every opportunity to get himself into goalscoring positions, often making the same runs as RvP, when there's space in behind that nobody is occupying.
Rooney admitted in his own words last week that he had to be selfish because he wants to play up front and he's getting his way at the detriment of the team. He's a selfish brat and is evidently playing for himself and not giving Moyes the ability to alter the shape of the team.
This.
Compared to how Rooney was playing in the 2010/11 title run-in what he's showed, for quite some time, is substandard. People even get excited to see him pick up the ball and drive at players these days because its become so unusual, when three or four years ago Rooney bulldozing past players would have simply been standard.
While Rooney has improved as a goalscorer his overall performance levels have significantly fallen in the past three years. He's still one of the best players in the Premier League but its no longer outrageous to suggest that other sides have players that are his equal or better. All arguments about Rooney seem to come back to what he's capable of on his day, using some reference point two or three seasons back to justify what we know he's capable of. However, the truth seems to be that either because he can't give a monkeys or he's just not able to Rooney of today cannot replicate the form of Rooney of yesterday.
I was afraid of selling him to Chelsea because he knows where the goal is and all that team needs is a number 9, which is undoubtedly Rooney's strength at the moment. However, what United need of Rooney is for him to be the number 10 he was in Spring 2011 when he was was tearing teams apart behind Chicharito and scoring with ridiculous regularity too. Two different roles and while Rooney seems keen to do the former he doesn't seem all that bothered to do the latter.
His more regular efforts to beat the offside trap led to our only goal yesterday - one of our few goals from open play this season.
He's a selfish cnut and needs to play deeper, as I'm sure he's expected to. As far as I'm concerned I'm glad he wasn't sold, especially to Chelsea, and he's clearly one of our top players. But he will never apologise for the shite he pulled, twice, and it'll take a lot of good performances for me to sing his name again. I tend to be over defensive about the players but with Rooney it's once bitten, twice shy and if he's not playing well, he can feck off out of the team.
Rooney was good against Chelsea and Swansea, brilliant against City and Leverkusen and has ranged from average to downright shit in all his other appearances this season. He is not having a "great" season, and as LR7 has explained so brilliantly with pictures and stuff, our accommodating him is harming the way we play. I actually think giving a man who wanted to join our title rivals and leaked bollocks to the press all summer everything he wants is slightly detrimental to team morale too, but that's just speculation on my part. However, what can't be argued against is what we're all seeing on the pitch, and what we're seeing is that this 4-4-2 bollocks needs to stop, and in order to do that we either tell Rooney to play deeper, and risk upsetting the great one, or we drop RVP and play Kagawa/Fellaini/Giggs in a three man midfield. In the summer I was totally against selling Rooney, but to be honest I'm starting to think it may have been better in the long run for the team, and that SAF was right all along, who knew?
Totally with you there. I'm not going to jump on Moyes' back though, because as you say, a load of us wanted Rooney to stay at the club. The more I look at the situation, it just seems that Rooney's focused on England and the World Cup.
He wasn't great yesterday and hasn't been for a few games, but he has been are best player this season. We are mid table so that let's you know the bar is not that high. All the tactical analysis has been pretty spot on, it is not just on Rooney to drop deep though. If RVP is adept at dropping back as so many say they should take turns in doing so. They real problem is still cm for me, there is not enough mobility in there. Carrick and Felliani will get run over by any quality midfield in Europe. Between Rooney and RVP they need to work something out and we need runners from deep so if Rooney/RVP drops deep whoever is up top is not isolated, again Carrick and Felliani are not ideal for that.
We were playing at home. Even if we played a natural number 10 I would expect him to be right up alongside our forward. The problem definitely isn't Rooney. The problem for me was the midfield again. Specifically Fellaini yesterday. They pressed us all-over the pitch yesterday but Fellaini was just too slow in possession and wouldn't move the ball quick enough and accurate enough. Now if we had Cleverley instead of Fellaini yesterday I think it would have been much better. I really don't think dropping a striker for Kagawa is the solution. We simply just need to sign a CM but we'll deal with teams pressing us with Cleverley in the side.
With our CM options it's come to the point where we NEED Cleverley.
With our CM options it's come to the point where we NEED Cleverley.
Let me understand... the problem is Rooney now?
I don't even like the guy, but I can see that he's been our best player this season. This place is a madhouse.
I don't even like the guy, but I can see that he's been our best player this season. This place is a madhouse.
I agree with that and yes Fellaini doesn't or rather didn't move the ball fast enough and accurately enough.Something Cleverley would have done.I think that Kagawa needs to play and if things are not working with Rooney then swap the two and give him a chance but there is a growing feeling that Rooney has Moyes bent over and this is a dangerous situation.Is Rooney is getting too big for his boots? Is Moyes really afraid of subbing him/dropping him for fear of a reaction?? Right now though Cleverley is needed and we are missing him.Perhaps it's only now that we realise how much we need him.
The problem's been Rooney since start of the season. Calling this place a madhouse is nothing but nonsensical, as the concerns are valid.
Right, of course.
Like I say, I'd have been happy to see him go in the summer, he's a dick. But from a footballing point of view it's absolute bullshit to blame Rooney for this season's woes.
It's all too obvious that there's a section of people who also don't like him and wanted him gone, but can't separate this from their judgment of the game, and have been anxiously waiting for him to have a couple of games when he's not outplayed everybody else on the park so that they can launch this drivel.
Whatever I think of him, I prefer to stick to the facts when it comes to looking at our performances.
Stick to the facts? I think you'll find that you're diverging away from the facts, more than anything. You're looking at things simplistically, when the problem is much bigger. From a footballing point of view, Rooney is to blame partially for our attacks lacking fluidity. You seem to have ignored that he's essentially pressured Moyes into playing him further ahead, next to Van Persie, almost in the style of a centre-forward, which creates problems for us. Take a look at the David Moyes tactician thread for evidence.
Your third paragraph is just lazy. If that was the case, then Rooney would get little praise. Instead, he's received some appreciation in the form of the word "great", so in reality, his performances have been overstated, though he's been very good. More importantly, he's had three consecutive poor games, where his touch has been abysmal. That is not on for a player that is extremely high wages. And again, it's not really the poor touches that I'm worried about the most.
Look, if you think our tactics / formation are wrong, then fine. Not sure you're on the money, but it's a reasonable argument. But that doesn't make it the players fault - van Persie is also capable of playing deeper, how come it's not his fault?
The answer is, of course, because Rooney has "pressured" the manager, the little swine. Of course he has, after all, you were there at Carrington when all this was going on, weren't you? You've definitely not just started speculating, based on your view of him.
Have I missed a specific quote your referring to, or is that sentence just weird?
Do the people who say 'the problem is not Rooney it's the midfield' not see that the two are directly connected?
Rooney selfishly playing so high (pretty much as high as RvP) means that the two central midfielders are cut off from the two centre forwards. That leaves them more susceptible to being overrun.
It also means that when were attacking the CMs have fewer options through the middle because Rooney isn't dropping into the hole as much as he should, and so they often have to resort to spreading the ball out wide to the wingers or fullbacks which makes things more predictable and makes us easier to defend against. There is a big wide open space between the CMs and the centre forwards that the number 10 should be occupying but it's free atm. It makes the CMs job harder gives them less options in attack and means there are less bodies in there defending.
We lack creativity through the middle because Rooney wants to play high and get himself amongst the goals rather than wanting to supply RvP. He'd probably also get himself into more space if he dropped off. There is also the factor of the wingers staying far out wide in the 4-4-2 we play, rather than coming inside which is more natural to them, and is what Januzaj did in the second half vs Sunderland.
Rooney selfishly playing so high (pretty much as high as RvP) means that the two central midfielders are cut off from the two centre forwards. That leaves them more susceptible to being overrun.
It also means that when were attacking the CMs have fewer options through the middle because Rooney isn't dropping into the hole as much as he should, and so they often have to resort to spreading the ball out wide to the wingers or fullbacks which makes things more predictable and makes us easier to defend against. There is a big wide open space between the CMs and the centre forwards that the number 10 should be occupying but it's free atm. It makes the CMs job harder gives them less options in attack and means there are less bodies in there defending.
We lack creativity through the middle because Rooney wants to play high and get himself amongst the goals rather than wanting to supply RvP. He'd probably also get himself into more space if he dropped off. There is also the factor of the wingers staying far out wide in the 4-4-2 we play, rather than coming inside which is more natural to them, and is what Januzaj did in the second half vs Sunderland.
I don't need to be on the money. Many have picked up on it, fortunately. It makes Rooney at fault in this situation. Why? Because he has pressured Moyes into playing him further up the pitch. You haven't mentioned - or maybe you're oblivious to this, so fair enough - Rooney's recent comments: "Everyone at the club knew where I wanted to play and I think that's why I was disappointed. I got told to play in midfield and I didn't want to. I just think there had to come a point when, for my own career, I had to be a bit selfish really." As for Van Persie, take a look at my post here. I just don't see how you don't see the correlation here...
No, it's not weird. Some fans who "hate" Rooney have said that he's been great this season, when he clearly hasn't.
Why not criticize RvP a bit and haul him off instead? He's had a far poorer season than Rooney has had.
All that shows is that the majority of fans who don't like him are still able to make an impartial judgment of his performance. It's only a minority who are waiting to slag him off at the first sniff of a chance. Oh, and the line I quoted still read really weird.
I'm well aware of his quotes, which for me were pretty much in line with the sort of self-centred nonsense I expect from him. But they are in no way evidence of him bullying Moyes into playing him in a certain position. The (partially) redeeming thing about Rooney is that, however much shit comes out of his mouth, he's always been prepared to play where he's told even if he doesn't like it. And he's always been more than happy to put himself about and drop deep from attack - In fact, we used to get threads on here about how he was being indisciplined in charging back too much trying to make things happen, when he should be holding a higher position. The quotes were actually about playing in midfield iirc, which is different to asking him to drop back as a no10.
So, once again, you have no evidence at all for this "bullying". If Rooney is too far up the pitch with RVP, then chances are it's because that's what Moyes wants him to be doing.
Rooney hasn't been as deep this season as he has on occasions in the past but he's had a very good season for us so far. The problem lies more with us not bothering to fix what is so obviously broken for the past 7 years. Our midfield! Rooney had a poor game yesterday yes and this gets highlighted even more because he's on the ball so often and misplaced passes are even more noticeable. Maybe he should have been taken off earlier but so should have RvP but he doesn't ever get taken off when playing poorly either so I don't get how this is only mentioned with respect to Rooney.
But now, with the recent quotes, he's not going to start the wings, which is understandable, but at the same time, he's clearly playing in a higher position in the last two games than last season, evident by the post I just linked you to. Of course there isn't evidence of bullying, but wait... is there evidence of Messi pressuring Barcelona managers into playing him every game? Come on, man, use some logic. I'd say "bullying" is a strong word. As for the evidence, I've already linked you to my post. And all you have to do is compare that with his position last season. Go on YouTube and you'll find match compilations, and you will, in fact, see that Rooney was deeper, often finding himself collect the ball next to the half-way line. There is a fundamental difference his position. And if Nani is playing on the wings, that's what Moyes wants him to be doing... We know it's the manager's tactic, but why has Moyes decided to keep the 4-4-2, but push Rooney further ahead when it creates problems for us? No logic in the decision at the moment, unless we buy a dribbler...
What's so odd? I don't get the selective criticism because some people have Rooney agendas on here. Both our strikers were poor yesterday and yet one gets the extreme reactions.
wr8_utd
Does wr8_utd, by any chance, stand for 'Wayne Rooney ate Utd'?
Does wr8_utd, by any chance, stand for 'Wayne Rooney ate Utd'?
Rooney has clearly stated when it is and isn't acceptable for Moyes to ask him to play elsewhere. He's a selfish brat on this one I'm afraid.
If the game is not going our way and Moyes wants to change something say at half time he's limited to what he can and can't do since Rooney will only move in the last 10-15 minutes on his terms.
I've traditionally always given RvP a rougher ride than Rooney. I've been in the RvP thread plenty this season saying how he's been below par.
Yesterday though, RvP got on the scoresheet and looked in better nick than Rooney.
God help us if Rooney who's been poorer than Bebe has ever been is our best player this season. We should have parted company with the man-child last summer. His selfishness is harming the way we play. 50% of the problem should also be blamed on Moyes who seems intransigent to make quick changes when things are not working out.
Moyes said in his interview he told his players at half time a goal wasn't enough - the next thing he did was to remove Nani who was our most dangerous player & replace him with the insipid Giggs. How's that move supposed to get us more goals or scare our opponents & make them retreat into their shells? We had Hernandez & Kagawa on the bench & Moyes overlooked then for Smalling & Welbeck?
It's mind-boggling!
- Status