Surely a club competeing to be the best in world football and having the profits to boot would rather keep a world class player and write of the £20 million they may loose in transfer fee. It should always be about the football side, making it about finance and shipping a player who has one year left but alot to offer would be a mistake as Arsenal found out with RVP. We should be doing all we can to keep our best players we did this for Keane around 2000 when we let his contract drift into its last year but did everything possible to keep him something that was a brilliant choice at the time.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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Surely a club competeing to be the best in world football and having the profits to boot would rather keep a world class player and write of the £20 million they may loose in transfer fee. It should always be about the football side, making it about finance and shipping a player who has one year left but alot to offer would be a mistake as Arsenal found out with RVP. We should be doing all we can to keep our best players we did this for Keane around 2000 when we let his contract drift into its last year but did everything possible to keep him something that was a brilliant choice at the time.
I dont agree with that at all, and that is not just from a business perspective. It doesnt make sense to keep a player who is not committed to the club, regardless of how good they might be- better to sell and reinvest in new players.
For me the mistake that Arsenal made with RvP etc is to let them get to 1 year left on the their contract, as far as I am concerned a player should be offered a new contract with 2 years left and if they dont accept then they should be sold.
Last time Rooney reached 2 years he fecked us about and held the club to ransom over a new deal, it is no coincidence that all this crap starts again at the vital 2 year mark.
Im expecting him to leave. I suspect part of it all is he simply wants a change of scenery, he has been with us for about 10 years and quite probably simply wants a fresh challenge.
World class players give you a better chance of wining titles and going further in the champions league which more than adequately covers wages and profits on transfer fees. It would suit the Glazers more to have Rooney playing well for us and scoring goals than to sell him. They earn more that way than from transfer fees and wages saved.
Do you think weve made a mistake in keeping him then?
I tend to agree with what you are saying, this was what I was saying over the summer, but his performances this year illustrate that what you are saying is a little simplistic. Rooney has demonstrated he is not "committed to the club", but he is being a professional and playing well. What's to say he wouldnt do the same next season as he ran down the final year of his contract?
Yes we made a mistake in keeping him IMO
FWIW I dont think it is clear cut in this instance, it is pretty marginal. And it depends on information we dont have access to. The sums Chelsea were talking about, I think we made the right decision. We could sell him next summer, we'd get less for him but the difference between what will probably get and what we were offered - which would essentially be the cost of his services this season - is pretty small. And given how he is playing this season it is probably worth having him around.
The other side of the coin is the possibility that the overall team would be more coherent and stronger if he wasnt there. That is unknowable but entirely plausible as far as Im concerned. It goes back to the post I quoted of Botond's yesterday. But then that is a slightly different issue, if you agree with that logic it doesnt matter whether he wants to be here or not, it is his specific attributes as a footballer holding us back, not his commitment.
The other side of the coin is the possibility that the overall team would be more coherent and stronger if he wasnt there. That is unknowable but entirely plausible as far as Im concerned. It goes back to the post I quoted of Botond's yesterday. But then that is a slightly different issue, if you agree with that logic it doesnt matter whether he wants to be here or not, it is his specific attributes as a footballer holding us back, not his commitment.
He stepped up tonight and delivered big time. Love him playing like that. Still a bit wasteful in possession at times but generally a joy to watch. Thought that curler was on it's way in, he doesn't take enough shots from outside the box for us for my liking.
He will be England's all time record scorer at some point in the next 18-24 months. 38 goals now. I think it motivates him a lot more than breaking Sir Bobby's United record.
He will be England's all time record scorer at some point in the next 18-24 months. 38 goals now. I think it motivates him a lot more than breaking Sir Bobby's United record.
feck off.Good to see England use him as the Center Forward. No more big lumps up front for England.
Welbeck and Sturridge are good partners for him. Lots of pace and trickery there. Rooney's finishing ability is lethal. Heading is class and anything around the box.
What's lost in the crazy media shit storm that surrounds Rooney is that he has evolved into a very clinical finisher. Something that he wasn't when he was younger and supposedly more 'explosive'.
Welbeck and Sturridge are good partners for him. Lots of pace and trickery there. Rooney's finishing ability is lethal. Heading is class and anything around the box.
What's lost in the crazy media shit storm that surrounds Rooney is that he has evolved into a very clinical finisher. Something that he wasn't when he was younger and supposedly more 'explosive'.
Im in 2 minds about it - under normal circumstances I would say it is a mistake but Fergie leaving puts a different spin on things. Also we dont know if there was any interest from abroad and selling to a rival is not ideal.
I think Moyes has played it well, because now Rooney is performing better (he was way off form last season) so eventhough I think he is an utter dickhead I am happy for him to extend his contract. At the same time, if he still wants to go then we should get more interest due to his upturn in form.
In any case I wouldnt want a player at the club who is just running down his contract, better to sell and reinvest in someone who is committed to the cause.
All this season has showed so far is how his selfish refusal to play a deeper role because he wants to improve his own goal tally is hurting the fluidity of the team.
He should stop being a twat and accept that he should play a deeper role.
In the last round of league games Rooney played further away from van Persie than Ozil did from Giroud.
Thats probably more down to the fact that Arsenal, because of Ozil's deeper natural position, control their games better and thus have more of their players in attacking positions, than Rooney's initial position being deeper than Ozil's.
Rooney was slightly further ahead but they essentially played in the exact same areas. People just pretend otherwise because it doesn't fit in with the "United play this outdated 442 when we should be played this modern 4231" narrative.
Is this really worth debating? They may play in the same area of the pitch but they're clearly very different footballers and have very different roles for their teams.
The debate is about the area of the pitch they play in though, not their role or their style of play.
"All this season has showed so far is how his selfish refusal to play a deeper role because he wants to improve his own goal tally is hurting the fluidity of the team."
"All this season has showed so far is how his selfish refusal to play a deeper role because he wants to improve his own goal tally is hurting the fluidity of the team."
I know what the debate's about, it just feels rather ... pointless.
I've yet to find a debate on here that isn't completely pointless. In any case you're not being forced to read it...I'd just like to see how someone can argue that Rooney is refusing to play the deeper role when it seems quite clear he's doing exactly that.
It's because people are now hung up on his comment about last season, i.e. that his reason for being unsettled had something to do with Fergie seeing him as a midfielder. Precisely what that actually means is hard to say, though. I would imagine he's referring to a designated role, a specifically more defensive one (and Fergie did use him in that capacity at times). When he plays, as he does now, in a rather free role behind the main striker, he frequently drops deep - just as he frequently ventures out on the wing, for that matter. He usually did that under Fergie as well.
Point being: His role at the moment - which supposedly reflects a selfish refusal to drop deep - looks strikingly like the one he usually played under Fergie, apart from those occasions when he was indeed used in some designated role or other (as a central or wide midfielder - of sorts). And apart from that one season when he was essentially our main striker. People see what they want to see - even when it isn't there to be seen.
Point being: His role at the moment - which supposedly reflects a selfish refusal to drop deep - looks strikingly like the one he usually played under Fergie, apart from those occasions when he was indeed used in some designated role or other (as a central or wide midfielder - of sorts). And apart from that one season when he was essentially our main striker. People see what they want to see - even when it isn't there to be seen.
That's so wrong it hurts. He's been by far our best player so far this season, and one of the reasons why we've had any fluidity at all.
Brightonian, its possible to play very well personally, but still have a detrimental impact on the team - and its fluidity - as a whole. The classic example being RVN. The goal machine who held us back - allegedly.
It is. But that's very clearly not what's happening with Rooney. If anything he's the opposite of a RVN.
You say that the debate is about the area of the pitch they play, not the role, and highlight the part of my post saying its about role as well. K.
Its about both.I adamantly disagree that Rooney is what is holding us together and making us perform. A few clips from the Sunderland game do show that he isnt always positioned too far forward in a rigid 4-4-2, but for large portions of our games he is. The times he isnt is mostly when we have an opportunity to counter attack after winning the ball from the opposition. Rooney does a lot of great defensive work for a #10, its probably his very best asset from that position compared to other players its natural to compare him to, such as Özil. Therefore he is also often found in deep positions after we win the ball from the opposition, and is often in good position to take part of a counter attack. Rooney is a terrific counter attacking player.
Where Rooney (and our entire attacking setup) falls through is when we are building a structured attack from the back. Rooney is not coming deep enough to support our CMs and as a result the stretch between midfield and forwards cause an imbalance in the team. The only place to play forward passes is to our wings or fullbacks, and this is also where almost all of our attacks are built. Not through the middle where Rooney is but from the wings. As the recent analysis posted in the Moyes thread shows, we are relying way too much on crosses. This is a direct result of our rigid system when in control of posession, which in part is caused by Rooney's advanced position.
If Rooney came deeper and was positioned deeper when we are building from the back it would allow our second CM to help forward without being afraid of leaving too big gaps for the opposition, allowing us to create more through the middle. With Rooney stationed up front this wont happen.
Rooney has been playing well individually, there is no denying that. But I believe that his reluctance to play deeper is harming the team as a whole. We have the quality to play through the middle more than we do, and shouldnt have to rely as much on crosses and full backs as we have so far this season, but if Rooney refuses to take more part in the deeper build up play we will continue to rely on crosses and set pieces for goals.
You say that the debate is about the area of the pitch they play, not the role, and highlight the part of my post saying its about role as well. K.
I adamantly disagree that Rooney is what is holding us together and making us perform. A few clips from the Sunderland game do show that he isnt always positioned too far forward in a rigid 4-4-2, but for large portions of our games he is. The times he isnt is mostly when we have an opportunity to counter attack after winning the ball from the opposition. Rooney does a lot of great defensive work for a #10, its probably his very best asset from that position compared to other players its natural to compare him to, such as Özil. Therefore he is also often found in deep positions after we win the ball from the opposition, and is often in good position to take part of a counter attack. Rooney is a terrific counter attacking player.
Where Rooney (and our entire attacking setup) falls through is when we are building a structured attack from the back. Rooney is not coming deep enough to support our CMs and as a result the stretch between midfield and forwards cause an imbalance in the team. The only place to play forward passes is to our wings or fullbacks, and this is also where almost all of our attacks are built. Not through the middle where Rooney is but from the wings. As the recent analysis posted in the Moyes thread shows, we are relying way too much on crosses. This is a direct result of our rigid system when in control of posession, which in part is caused by Rooney's advanced position.
If Rooney came deeper and was positioned deeper when we are building from the back it would allow our second CM to help forward without being afraid of leaving too big gaps for the opposition, allowing us to create more through the middle. With Rooney stationed up front this wont happen.
Rooney has been playing well individually, there is no denying that. But I believe that his reluctance to play deeper is harming the team as a whole. We have the quality to play through the middle more than we do, and shouldnt have to rely as much on crosses and full backs as we have so far this season, but if Rooney refuses to take more part in the deeper build up play we will continue to rely on crosses and set pieces for goals.
The question then becomes whether Rooney is ideally suited to this task. Moyes has inherited a team whose main strength, attacking wise, lay in hitting the opponent on the counter. It was Fergie's way for many years. And for years it worked brilliantly too. If you have a top class back four and top class wingers you can mix it up with the best of them, playing this system. At the moment we are lacking in both departments: Our back four is potentially still strong, but it certainly isn't the best in Europe anymore. And we all know what state our wingers have been in lately.
My point is this: We can go two ways from here. Rebuild the back four, making it truly top class again - and do something about our wingers. Keep using the counter-attack as our main weapon, but with sharper personnel out there than we have fielded lately. Then Rooney can keep playing in his role. We still won't be much good at building attacks systematically from deep, controlling every aspect of the match, etc. But that's not the only way to win a football match in style. OR, the other way: To start playing differently, simply put. But that might require a different set of players. Moyes may have just this in mind for all we know: a proper re-fitting, in other words. There are many possible set-ups in which the current Rooney role simply would have no place. Perhaps Moyes intends to use him as a pure striker before too long - we shall see. He might bugger off before too long as well - that's certainly possible.
"but if Rooney refuses to take more part in the deeper build up play we will continue to rely on crosses and set pieces for goals."
Rooney completed 60 passes vs Sunderland
Rooney completed 60 passes vs Sunderland
He is a very unique player and when he is scoring and assisting and getting lots of the ball it's kind of hard to define his role in terms of where on the pitch he operates.
And you can say lots of things about how Rooney conducts himself, but Rooney is pretty much the least selfish player (on the pitch) that I have seen considering how big of a star he is and what he has accomplished.
If anything he should shoot more.
And you can say lots of things about how Rooney conducts himself, but Rooney is pretty much the least selfish player (on the pitch) that I have seen considering how big of a star he is and what he has accomplished.
If anything he should shoot more.
He had a crap game. Football isn't maths and the quality of display cannot be measured by numbers.
I wasn't talking about whether he had a good or bad game. Read my post and the post I quoted again. You cannot make 60 passes in a game by refusing to take part deeper in build up play.
People see what they want to see. Because Rooney is not a small, nimble, classic "number 10," people refuse to appreciate what he brings to the side in this position. He is remarkably productive each season, and has proven his worth as the side's most influential figure time and time again.
I believe these sorts of reactions also stem from the hordes of Kagawa apologists on this site. A fine player, but it's baffling to suggest that Rooney should be removed from the role behind the striker to accommodate Kagawa. Kagawa has shown nothing for United to merit such a key role, and there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to influence the game starting from a wide position. People on this site view Kagawa as a playmaker, I believe him to be a more direct player, but still, numerous playmakers and attacking midfielders operate starting from wide areas. Silva, Nasri, Götze, Iniesta, Mata, and Oscar are all examples of players who either regularly or have successfully in the past been deployed as wide players, with license to drift into space. Even Adnan Januzaj showed more impetus, determination, and quality starting from the left side against Sunderland than Kagawa has shown in a very long time. Yet many people here want Rooney to make way for Kagawa. A very strange situation.
Rooney is productive yes, but his style of play contributes to our lack of penetration through the middle, preferring cross after cross from the wings.
You could say that - yes. But it might not be the best way to look at it. If your best and most fluid attacking football is meant to come in the shape of counter attacks - well, then this static formula of pinging it wide and crossing it almost aimlessly (so it has appeared at times) isn't really a matter of preference: It's not the actual method, just a way of biding your time, really. The true method is to hit 'em on the counter with speed and precision. The static "method" is just a by-product, so to speak.
You can't replace Rooney with a specialized No10 and expect a dramatic change if the approach itself - the counter attacking strategy - remains the same. Given the approach Rooney is better suited than a specialized No10, because he is more versatile - and he provides a much greater goal threat than your average No10: He can grab a goal even when we aren't allowed to counter and must resort to this "zombie" mode so many have grown tired of watching.
But: We have a new man in charge now. He may very well end up with a different approach. More possession, less focus on counter attacks - which would make it necessary to build up attacks in a far less static manner than our old "plan B", which was never much of a plan to begin with.
Spot on.
I tend to agree with what you're saying. The team is under new management so time will tell.
Rooney wants to play upfront, right? and van persie is a given upfront, right?
The only way to accomadate both Rooney and Kagawa in the same team is to deploy a 4:3:3 system.
This means we need to sacrifice an attacking winger (which at the moment wouldn't be a problem) and our left or right back need to be less attacking(more Denis Irwin type). Also this requires our 2 midfielders to be more discipline and support our 2 centre backs.
This is very achievable with the players we have at present, no need to go buying or selling anybody.
I for one would hate to see the back of Kagawa, purely because he is a such a talented footballer and has proven it internationally.
SAF bought him for a reason, personally i think that if SAF was still around, Rooney would be at Madrid/Barca and Kagawa would be our number 10.
The only way to accomadate both Rooney and Kagawa in the same team is to deploy a 4:3:3 system.
This means we need to sacrifice an attacking winger (which at the moment wouldn't be a problem) and our left or right back need to be less attacking(more Denis Irwin type). Also this requires our 2 midfielders to be more discipline and support our 2 centre backs.
This is very achievable with the players we have at present, no need to go buying or selling anybody.
I for one would hate to see the back of Kagawa, purely because he is a such a talented footballer and has proven it internationally.
SAF bought him for a reason, personally i think that if SAF was still around, Rooney would be at Madrid/Barca and Kagawa would be our number 10.
Doesn't look like main man(Moyes' comment) in last three games, another poor performance, I swear he lost possession every time he touched the ball in second half.
He's had more poor performances than good ones this season.
He was absolutely rubbish today, no better than Andy Carroll with this type of performances. Couldn't even score from Adnan's beautiful pass
Third consecutive poor performance. Really disappointing.
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