Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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amolbhatia100 said:
Why do you want power, aggression and "studiousness off the ball" whatever that means. He'd a different player, he'd being other things to the table. He wouldn't run around as much and wouldn't score as much but would create more, help us hold on to the ball under pressure and run the game better. It's a trade off.

We anyway need our CMs to be better than they are. Rooney doesn't do their job so as to increase our need for a central midfielder. It exists anyway and we will eventually get another midfielder regardless of Rooney or Ozil. So it's pointless. It will happen.

The goals argument also doesn't stand as he's more creative. So he'll make up for lesser goals by making sure the team creates more.

It answers your question very well. I was talking about what "should" be the case not what the management of united think or will do. I believe Wayne Rooney today is a less important player to this team than he once was and has was not very good in the season gone by. So as per me his stock has gone down. And more importantly, taking into consideration of the facts above, I don't believe he's worthy of a pay rise.
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Studiousness off the ball - positional discipline, awareness of role when play breaks down, but I'm sure you're aware of what I meant. The trade off you speak of leaves us in a lesser position than we started with - they are not equivalent players and it most certainly isn't a like-for-like with a different brush.

Compared to Ozil, Rooney is Roy Keane in his contribution to the midfield cause.

Fan opinion on what Wayne's stock is is clearly irrelevant, you put forth that this was not so.
 
Fortitude said:
Studiousness off the ball - positional discipline, awareness of role when play breaks down, but I'm sure you're aware of what I meant. The trade off you speak of leaves us in a lesser position than we started with - they are not equivalent players and it most certainly isn't a like-for-like with a different brush.

Compared to Ozil, Rooney is Roy Keane in his contribution to the midfield cause.

Fan opinion on what Wayne's stock is is clearly irrelevant, you put forth that this was not so.
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Nah it doesn't leave us in a lesser position as they're in the same bracket overall as footballers. Where Ozil leaves holes, he'll fill others Rooney can't. Plus I'd enjoy watching the team with him as a no.10 much more as well.

Well get another midfielder regardless, it's not a worry to me. We've got enough hustle and bustle in our team anyway, I won't miss that side of Rooney. What id rather see more of is players who are extremely gifted and comfortable on the ball.

Are you sure you've read my posts properly mate? I'm giving my opinion on his worth. I'm not sure how you to came to the conclusion that I thought fans opinions would be relevant to how the club will act.
 
Fortitude said:
Power and aggression are invaluable in the Premier League. It's going to be one of the key reasons (alongside pace) that Jose dumps Chelsea's best player.
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Wrongly. Juan Mata has proved he's one of the best players in the league, he's clearly showed his value. Also, Hazard and Oscar will play huge parts in their season and they have neither power or aggression (Valencia was dumping them off the ball for fun on Monday)... pace is important sure, but RVP proves it's not everything. Basically, skill and technical quality willgenerally win out over power and aggression, and are clearly extremely desirable traits to have.

Rooney is a very rare composition as a player and I'd challenge you to find another 'hole player' who has such a broad scope as he does. There's no question he isn't the best user of the ball in the #10 position, but allied to everything else he does from the position, he is more than adequate at the job.

Ozil doesn't score anywhere near enough goals to be considered 'better' as a #10 than Rooney - he is only part of the archetypal #10 and severely lacks in the other essential aspect of the role. As I said before, Ozil puts more pressure on the #9 ahead of him to score, because he's not going to do enough of that himself.

In a team with goal-scoring wing-forwards as well as prolific striker, a player like Ozil is in his element. As it stands, we don't have anything like prolific wide-men or goals from deep midfield, ergo, you're left with RVP having an anchor around his neck to provide an insane amount of goals to offset the loss of Rooney's usual contribution.

Ozil works perfectly at a team like Real Madrid and also his NT for a very good reason and we do not have the same kind of tools to best make use of what he provides, which is in contrast to Rooney in the same role.
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If one person can be relied upon to score an insane amount of goals, it's RVP, but regardless... we should be expecting our wide-men to increase their goals contribution anyway. Plus, you could also have Rooney starting from a wider area to carry such a goal threat, without having to rely on him to bring creativity that he simply does not possess.

I'm not saying we definitely need Ozil or anything - I'd happily see Kagawa fill that role - but I do think that, against the better sides, having Rooney in behind RVP might not be enough. Remember, these games are often decided by one goal, and if you can get a genuine class creative player to create that one chance that others simply cannot, and you get RVP to finish it, then that's all you need.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Nah it doesn't leave us in a lesser position as they're in the same bracket overall as footballers. Where Ozil leaves holes, he'll fill others Rooney can't. Plus I'd enjoy watching the team with him as a no.10 much more as well.
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Aesthetically, Ozil is going to shit all over Wayne, we're not in disagreement there, but productivity is the name of the game, and after Messi ( along way after Messi) Rooney is arguably the most productive player in that role in the world now that Totti has aged because he provides lots of goals, a number of assists and a tremendous amount of work defensively that aids our poor midfield no-end. I feel his worth as a rounded footballer is very poorly acknowledged now that he is a wantaway cnut.
amolbhatia100 said:
Well get another midfielder regardless, it's not a worry to me. We've got enough hustle and bustle in our team anyway, I won't miss that side of Rooney. What id rather see more of is players who are extremely gifted and comfortable on the ball.
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That's all well and good, but what Rooney provides is absolutely essential to us with the team we have and I think you'd appreciate that more with him no longer here and the 'sudden' overloading our midfield would then face from a defensive or even neutral perspective.

amolbhatia100 said:
Are you sure you've read my posts properly mate? I'm giving my opinion on his worth. I'm not sure how you to came to the conclusion that I thought fans opinions would be relevant to how the club will act.
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This is what you posted
amolbhatia100 said:
You think a player should play below par and be regarded with a pay rise? I think not. The club can make mistakes if they want. Every club does. But I don't think playing well below par and refusing to play and wanting to leave make one eligible for a pay rise.
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I didn't offer my opinion on whether he should be regarded with a pay rise, I simply said that the club would sign him up on a new deal if he were willing to sign. I didn't even mention a pay rise.
 
I think we should agree to disagree in this. Some underrate his worth here but I feel you're overrating it. Productivity is not the name of the game IMO. Iniesta hardly produces but is a much better footballer than all the ones we mention. I believe we have tons of hard work, graft and good mentality in in our squad. Where sometimes we lack is that extra class in tight spaces, that little moment of quality when teams press us, and that perfect throng pass between the lines. That's what Ozil brings us and maybe immediately because were used to playing a different way, their would be adjustment required, but then again, signing Ozil for a team like united would require a change in system anyway. I'd be fine with that. So yeah I guess we rate the two players a bit differently as well value differently what they both would bring to the table, which is fine.

As for the last paragraph, I know you didn't say anything about a pay rise but for me that's the important bit so a spoke about it in the context of new contracts p. That's the only thing I'm against with regards to Rooney. I'm fine with him staying and an extension of his contract even, if he's actually motivated to be at this club.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Wrongly. Juan Mata has proved he's one of the best players in the league, he's clearly showed his value. Also, Hazard and Oscar will play huge parts in their season and they have neither power or aggression (Valencia was dumping them off the ball for fun on Monday)... pace is important sure, but RVP proves it's not everything. Basically, skill and technical quality willgenerally win out over power and aggression, and are clearly extremely desirable traits to have.



If one person can be relied upon to score an insane amount of goals, it's RVP, but regardless... we should be expecting our wide-men to increase their goals contribution anyway. Plus, you could also have Rooney starting from a wider area to carry such a goal threat, without having to rely on him to bring creativity that he simply does not possess.

I'm not saying we definitely need Ozil or anything - I'd happily see Kagawa fill that role - but I do think that, against the better sides, having Rooney in behind RVP might not be enough. Remember, these games are often decided by one goal, and if you can get a genuine class creative player to create that one chance that others simply cannot, and you get RVP to finish it, then that's all you need.
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Hazard has offensive pace and power and he is very aggressive with the route he takes toward the opposing goal. Using Valencia, perhaps the strongest winger in the league, as a barometer isn't fair as Valencia is routinely knocking full-backs flying, let alone attackers - physically, he's a beast.

You mention RVP, but seem to neglect the fact he is an incredibly powerful as well as technical player who can easily stand his ground and shield the ball against the likes of Terry and his ilk. Power in combination with skill and technical quality generally seperates the top bracket from the rest, it's more an anomaly for the likes of an Iniesta or Neyma to pop up than it is to find the best players being weak or waifs.

I would never want to put an overbearing load on one player. It'd basically be RVN all over again, and that is not healthy and it carries a lot more risk than trying to spread the load out as we did when we sold RVN on.

I don't have a problem with Ozil; I think his creative contribution is exceptional. I also think he needs the correct platform to deliver from as well and that we don't currently have that. If anything, I'd want him on the left supplying both RVP and Rooney over him in the middle with no Rooney here only having RVP to pass to who is capable of conversion. I think that's a bad trade off and very risky one, too.
 
Rooney is a better footballer than Ozil IMO, wouldnt like to swap for the reasons provided by fortitude.
 
Note: there's been plenty of 'daft' posts from the other side of the debate too, stuff along the lines of "I haven't read any of the press coverage...but it's all lies" & "Wayne might not have time to make a statement, and it would be misinterpeted if he did". I mean, come on...The whole debate has been skewed by some posters effectively arguing that "Your theory is nuts & you're horribly biased...because you don't agree with my sound reasoning."

Anyway, as Fortitude suggested, the club knows better than any of us (regarding this matter).
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I think we should agree to disagree in this. Some underrate his worth here but I feel you're overrating it. Productivity is not the name of the game IMO. Iniesta hardly produces but is a much better footballer than all the ones we mention. I believe we have tons of hard work, graft and good mentality in in our squad. Where sometimes we lack is that extra class in tight spaces, that little moment of quality when teams press us, and that perfect throng pass between the lines. That's what Ozil brings us and maybe immediately because were used to playing a different way, their would be adjustment required, but then again, signing Ozil for a team like united would require a change in system anyway. I'd be fine with that. So yeah I guess we rate the two players a bit differently as well value differently what they both would bring to the table, which is fine.

As for the last paragraph, I know you didn't say anything about a pay rise but for me that's the important bit so a spoke about it in the context of new contracts p. That's the only thing I'm against with regards to Rooney. I'm fine with him staying and an extension of his contract even, if he's actually motivated to be at this club.
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Iniesta is a genuine anomaly of the modern game and his ability and intelligence is such that he practically falls outside of the generic parameters we're bandying about in this discussion. Iniesta is an all-time great player for reasons far too extensive to get into in a Rooney thread.

As I've just said in another post, I don't have a problem with Ozil, but I think Rooney's contributions to our team are so many and varied that a lot of what he does is taken for granted because we're so used to it that it is seen as a standard consideration when in fact it is one of the most anomalous things you are going to find in a player who features in that role.

You want to supplement what Rooney brings with players who can provide something different. If you're going to take it out of the team then there is going to be a void there that, I personally believe, will require one exceptional player or two very, very good players to fill.

I agree that we should wrap this up here because I think the subject has been exhausted now.
 
Even if Rooney gets a new contract I wouldn't bet against him leaving in the next year or two. It just puts the club in a better position if/when he does.
 
If there are indeed players at the club worthy of being treated as special cases and afforded greater latitude, Rooney is no longer among their number and must earn that right anew.

Even were he to have a remarkably impressive season a new contract must naturally take a wider view, he is already on a more than enviable deal and an extension of those terms should be the upper limit of any offer. Preferably i think that the previously rumoured performance based contract would be more fitting for a player of his type and age.

Or we could offer the bait of a new contract long enough for him improve his worth in the eyes of prospective suitors and sell him before the World Cup.


Fortitude said:
There are so many daft posts in this thread talking down Rooney that are either put up by short-sighted people who fail to comprehend all he brings to the table as a player, or are posted from an emotional platform that makes them redundant, but it should be obvious to all and sundry how much Manchester United, as a club, value Rooney to put up with all that they have with him.
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We irrational and emotionally driven species to your logical and superior Vulcan mind huh?
 
Fortitude said:
As I've just said in another post, I don't have a problem with Ozil, but I think Rooney's contributions to our team are so many and varied that a lot of what he does is taken for granted because we're so used to it that it is seen as a standard consideration when in fact it is one of the most anomalous things you are going to find in a player who features in that role.
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I share this opinion. We've had him so long at the club that he's part of the furniture now basically and his contribution is considered standard, as you said, when it's very unique. I think some fans would only wake up to that fact if he was actually sold to Chelsea and they saw his impact in another team.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
If there are indeed players at the club worthy of being treated as special cases and afforded greater latitude, Rooney is no longer among their number and must earn that right anew.
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Evidently that is false given we're still treating him like a special player and will negotiate a new deal with him if he toes the company line. Once again, what fans think and what the club thinks should be regarded along tangential lines with one having no significance in the grand scheme of things.


Nick 0208 Ldn said:
We irrational and emotionally driven species to your logical and superior Vulcan mind huh?
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There's a time when the horse is so far past beaten to death that its carcass is splattered across the pavement and its innards are being played with. Saying the same things over and over and over again doesn't make them any more poignant. The vitriol and irrational posts are far too much and there comes a point where people making those points become a parody of themselves and lessen the worth of what they initially said.
 
That goes for both sides, Forty.
 
That last paragraph is one of the most vague, obscure and odd posts I've seen in this thread.

And that's something considering the amount of posts Steve and Sparky have!
 
It's a riff on extispicy. Or haruspex. Two players we failed to sign.
 
SteveJ said:
It's a riff on extispicy. Or haruspex.
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Just as aside, Steve, I figure you think I'm pro-Rooney and am having a go at his detractors?

I'd say I understand the ire and hatred toward him and how some will never forgive, and it being their right to do so, but I still think objectivity is important when something like this is being discussed on a forum.

Would you say that's fair comment?
 
p
Cina said:
That last paragraph is one of the most vague, obscure and odd posts I've seen in this thread.

And that's something considering the amount of posts Steve and Sparky have!
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:lol:

It's well off the mark too. There are absurd posters in the "pro Rooney" camp as there in the "anti Rooney" camp. No higher moral ground here I'm afraid. That jd chap spouts more nonsense that everyone here who disliked Rooney combined. He'll marry Rooney one day I'm sure of that. It may not be consensual.
 
Fortitude said:
Just as aside, Steve, I figure you think I'm pro-Rooney and am having a go at his detractors?

I'd say I understand the ire and hatred toward him and how some will never forgive, and it being their right to do so, but I still think objectivity is important when something like this is being discussed on a forum.

Would you say that's fair comment?
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Well, mate, I just think that some posters are "reaching" to give Wayne the benefit of the doubt. Personally, if he gives 100%, I'm absolutely fine with him staying. As for your position: you seem very reasonable.
 
I can understand that some fans are upset with Rooney about his perceived actions, such is the emotion of your average football fan. It gets a little silly when people try to back up their opinion by downplaying Rooneys abilities on the field though. He is still a very, very good player, and deserves to be ranked somewhere within the group of players below Messi and Ronaldo.
 
Funniest was the guy who thought selling Rooney would be a "personal tragedy" for him. Ah, good times.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Have some heart, we all give things different importance amol!
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:lol:

It was you, wasn't it?!

Edit:okay it was dmode.

Seriously,though, I worry for people who obsess so deeply about footballers who can anytime getup and leave their club. Jdmufc is the worst though. His Rooney posts are works of art.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
:lol:

It was you, wasn't it?!
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No, of course not! I don't give such futile things so much importance.

The last personal tragedy I experienced is when Eboue turned down the invitation to my wedding.

Seriously no it wasn't me, I've been quite clear about Rooney: I love the player, I think he's an amazing footballer, I think he's being led by Stretford and being a big baby overall, and I think he'd strengthen Chelsea too much for us to consider selling him to them; but if the club feel it is worth selling him abroad, I can understand that and I'd trust their judgment, even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with it.

I think it must have been Sparky Hughes who would consider it a personal tragedy to sell him.
 
Adebesi said:
Ah, dmode.

I wouldnt put myself in that camp. It wouldnt be a personal tragedy. But his contract dispute has been a voyage of self discovery for me.
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What have you discovered adebesi? Thrown a hissy fit at work recently? Did you get reigniting for putting in effort the other day? :)
 
I think the whole situation with Rooney is comparable to a fridge really, 6 foot tall, white, weighs 300 pounds, doesn't have a brain, likes beer. Sure, the fridge can be static, erratic, sometimes enigmatic, but always frantic and sporadic, and always tragic when it stops working and will no longer perform. I mean, the similarities are unbelievable really, sometimes I look at my fridge and I'm all like "is that you, Wayn... no wait, old fridgie you fooled me again you son of a gun". Seriously, next time you're watching a match, look at Rooney, then your fridge, then back to Rooney, you'll be amazed and phased.

(Sorry, it's just Ruud10 was banned so I'm trying to compensate)
 
Rooney in Paris said:
No, of course not! I don't give such futile things so much importance.

The last personal tragedy I experienced is when Eboue turned down the invitation to my wedding.

Seriously no it wasn't me, I've been quite clear about Rooney: I love the player, I think he's an amazing footballer, I think he's being led by Stretford and being a big baby overall, and I think he'd strengthen Chelsea too much for us to consider selling him to them; but if the club feel it is worth selling him abroad, I can understand that and I'd trust their judgment, even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with it.

I think it must have been Sparky Hughes who would consider it a personal tragedy to sell him.
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With all due respect, I don't think you and eboue are a good match.

Sparky would probably die of happiness if Rooney was sold.
 
SteveJ said:
Well, mate, I just think that some posters are "reaching" to give Wayne the benefit of the doubt. Personally, if he gives 100%, I'm absolutely fine with him staying. As for your position: you seem very reasonable.
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OK. Just wanted to know what you thought.

I think this whole thing is a great shame, and that both camps have a part to play in the blame stakes, although Wayne's camp took things too far last time and now there's no way back for him.

For him to be here for such a long time and for any potential departure to be without our blessing.. well, it's sad, really, innit?
 
Plenty were dismayed at Rooneys performances last season before this whole saga even started, to blame it all on backwards rationalization is odd. I think last season shows that Rooney can't perform to his best when his head isn't in the game, I see no reason why its going to be any different from now on. He might kick on for a few months but he'll find something else to sulk about eventually.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I think it must have been Sparky Hughes who would consider it a personal tragedy to sell him.
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:lol:

We should unite the clans, like in the War of the Roses or that film Herbie goes to Monte Carlo; so, wr8 marries Sparky & their offspring can throw bouquets & rotten tomatoes at Wayne during matches.
 
SteveJ said:
:lol:

We should unite the clans, like in the War of the Roses or that film Herbie goes to Monte Carlo; so, wr8 marries Sparky & their offspring can throw bouquets & rotten tomatoes at Wayne during matches.
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Jdmufc is going to hunt you down for not picking him. We'll miss you, Steve.
 
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