Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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I don't think he has the motivation any more. He'll start off like a house on fire at a different club but he'll soon return to normal. Maybe he'll have another couple of 30+ goal seasons overall but can see him declining rapidly in his thirties. It's time to cash in instead of this not for sale rubbish.
That should make an interesting chant for him next year
Should get a medal for that.
Shearer scored another 23 in the First Division when it was the top flight.
When Shearer was Rooneys current age:
Shearer 162 goals-304 top flight games
Rooney 156 goals-344 top flight games
When Shearer was Rooneys current age:
Shearer 162 goals-304 top flight games
Rooney 156 goals-344 top flight games
True, but Shearer wasn't the all-round player Rooney has been.
What a goalscorer Shearer was by the way.
379 goals in 733 club games, 30 in 63 for England. Rooney is at 214 goals in 477 games, with 36 in 83 for England. The records are comparable but Shearer wins if you just compare ratios.
(I'm clearly bored at work and going on wikipedia)
Aye, thick as the walls of Fort Knox, but an incredible goal scorer. Fergie wanted him - tried to sign him more than once, if memory serves (and the murmurings were true). In retrospect he could've been an even greater legend if he had decided to join us - a bit arrogant to say, perhaps, but I think it's true.
True enough. Levels of greatness taken into account he go go onto be great but never on the level of the others I mentioned.
That should be the record that's discussed. Anything else is unfair on Shearer.
That's not how the world works though. We have to work on the principle that Rooney is "for sale". This means that United will be looking for the best deal possible (taking into consideration domestic rivals etc).
If you look around a new house (house A) that is £250k and is a very nice newly built 4 bedroom in a decent area, you decide it is one worth considering. The next day you walk around an almost identical house (house B) that costs exactly the same but with 5 bedrooms and a slightly bigger garden. The only other difference between the two is that the latter has a ten thousand pound annual mandatory maintenance charge.
Do you honestly think the seller can justify saying "the maintenance charge is your problem and shouldn't effect the value, you are getting a bargain because this costs the same as house A and is bigger/nicer".
This charge will factor in to your cost-benefit analysis and inherently effects the value.
This is exactly the same as Footballer's. Bosman transfers are a prime example where the transfer fee is 0, but usually the player demands a huge signing on bonus and wages to compensate.
Benteke over 5 years will cost a purchaser a £25m fee and maybe £3m per season, total fee £40m. Rooney at £25m would cost well over double, despite the transfer fee being the same. Berbatov is a quality player who left for £4m, because Fulham had to commit to over £20m in wages to sign him. The wages almost always offset the transfer fee.
Here's a revised version -
it would be a good chant actually. I can't believe I've turned against Rooney, I didn't go against him after 2010 but I'm not having any player think he's bigger than the club.
Some people in this thread have blamed Moyes but lets face it, what SAF did was predetermined and I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted to put Moyes start at the club in a mess if he didn't have his consent.
I can't believe how underrated he's suddenly become especially on this forum. Iv seen many posts all but claim he's shit, it's really quite bizarre.
You have several good points. But the fact of the matter is that your house analogy isn't perfectly apt. A footballer may be a commodity, but not in the same way a house is one: The seller of a footballer is very different from the seller of a house. What the footballer is "worth" to both the seller and the buyer is a far more changeable and dynamic factor than its counterpart in your analogy.
I agree completely with your main point against December_16, though. If you are looking to sell a player to another club, the wages said club are prepared to pay the player are very much a part of the equation - for both parties. You can't insist on X (millions) when X - because of Y (the wages) - will make Z (the total cost of purchasing the player over time) uncomfortably or even impossibly high for the buyer.
Really? Perhaps I haven't monitored this thread enough, but I haven't got that impression.
I hope we don't sell him cheap. Personally I don't think he'll do a Gallas or something and talk about throwing games if he doesn't get his move. We all like to paint him as a proper c**t and in many ways he is/has been, but he's also one of the hardest working players on the pitch. I think if we stick to our guns and either Chelsea come in with an offer that is good value for us, or we keep him. I'd rather at least try that and see if things can work out rather than just give them someone who can easily get his form back for at least £10m of his value in todays market.
I think people are writing him off too quick though, even if he might not last long in to his thirties, he's still potentially got at least 5 quality years in him. If we can't get the right value for him I'd rather try and keep him. You can say about what he'd do to the dressing room but that's simply speculation, we've not heard anything negative about him or how he trained etc in that context, players have generally praised him. If we do sell him though we have to have a replacement in line first imo. I wouldn't expect it to be like for like but somewhere we need another player who can help carry the team, and that's on top of the midfielder(s) we also need. With Nani's future still uncertain we could really be back down to one genuine top player/matchwinner soon.
I think people are writing him off too quick though, even if he might not last long in to his thirties, he's still potentially got at least 5 quality years in him. If we can't get the right value for him I'd rather try and keep him. You can say about what he'd do to the dressing room but that's simply speculation, we've not heard anything negative about him or how he trained etc in that context, players have generally praised him. If we do sell him though we have to have a replacement in line first imo. I wouldn't expect it to be like for like but somewhere we need another player who can help carry the team, and that's on top of the midfielder(s) we also need. With Nani's future still uncertain we could really be back down to one genuine top player/matchwinner soon.
There was one going around earlier, similar to the Tevez chant.
The thing with Shearer is that his career was heavily affected by injuries when he went to Newcastle and he never had the career he could/should have. If he had ended up coming to United there's no guessing how things could have gone.
At Blackburn his Premiership goal record was 112 goals in 138 games. Just insane.
It's safe to say Rooney couldn't come close to those types of statistics, I don't even think Henry had as good a record. Like I said, if we had managed to get him he could have been absolutely incredible.
I know this wasn't your main point, but it's a questionable one imo. He works no harder or less hard than anyone else in the team from what I can see. This perception had its foundation in the young Rooney who would chase all over the pitch like a kid who'd had his first taste of sugar. He's been much more conservative (though I'm sure no less hard-working either) over the last few years and I don't think you could say he really works "harder" than any one else who contributed to winning the title.
The 1997 cruciate snap was obviously a big hindrance, but to me Shearer's best work was always going to be the period from 1994-1997 anyway, I don't think he was going to become better after that, but it's conjecture. You'd also have to factor in Rooney's 3 metatarsal injuries and the damaged ankle into any comparison.
Shearer at Blackburn crashed in the goals, true. Scored so many different types of goals too. I must say I loved watching him when he wasn't playing against United and throwing his elbows around.
It's a complete myth nowadays and I'm surprised people still mention it. As you say sure he did in his early days but he hasn't been the hardest working player on the pitch for years.
Well I would agree that in general we have a very hard working team but if you put it in to the context of other top attackers that I would say in general Rooney works a lot harder and is/has been willing to do a lot of tracking to cover people than most I've seen. Additionally I would say that in a fair few games because of our often lack of legs in midfield Rooney has had to do a lot of extra work to cover for players as well as then get involved in the attack. It's a tough thing to master that balance between helping out but not sacrificing your attacking work which he probably got a little wrong in his early years. But now when he's playing standard and above I think he works harder than most whilst still being able to contribute well in attack. If he improved his fitness more he could be even better at it as well.
How come you thought that period was going to be his best? He was only 26/27 when he moved to Newcastle.
Yeahh I agree he wasn't going to get better, my point was more that with the team we assembled and the players he would have been linking up with he could have scored even more goals. Even though he wouldn't be a better player, the number of chances he would be getting would bring out the best of him as a goalscorer.
Imagine him getting on the end of Beckhams/Giggs' crosses
Someone asked if people thought he could break Shearer's record. I don't think he can.
He's got 6 years maximum at the top (that's if his shitty attitude towards fitness don't catch up with him first) and has averaged something like 15 PL goals per season for United (not including his Everton return cause he was still young, so as to make it so Rooney fanboys can't whine about my view). Taking out those two random seasons where he scored shitloads of goals ('freak' occurrance when looking at his stats season by season) he averages about 12 goals per season.
I think we can take an average of maybe 13 goals per season for a 'normal' or 'regular' Wayne Rooney season. So no, i don't think he will break Shearer's record for PL goals.
So please just think before replying to someone's opinion and before you rubbish it purely for the sake of trying to embellish your own (pretty weak) argument. Cheers.
I definitely see where you're coming from, and probably we're more on the same page than we think we are. I agree that wage should be taken into consideration, but my argument is that Chelsea cannot use the wage they're about to pay him (which is probably a damn sight higher than his current contract with us, that's why his head was turned) to negotiate the sales price. Put it differently, each club has a valuation in mind ('perceived' worth to the club minus wage), and it's really the game of guessing each other's idea of how much a player is worth to the other party (which is a somewhat intangible, flexible number) to drive the negotiation. In my mind, we have a lot of data point to triangulate this number (ie how much Chelsea is willing to pay) given their purchasing behavior in the past.
Anyway, the principle that "Rooney is for sale" is a pretty strong assumption, too, because if the price offered is not overly worth it, we might as well keep him. To counterpoint all this, I can just say feck it, it's Chelsea, let's just slap a huge price tag on it, because practically nothing is prohibitively expensive for their endless pocket.
How does one go about to prove or disprove a thing like that, though? I'm not having a go at you - or anyone else - it just strikes me that "hard working" is yet another category which is a bit, you know, foggy. There are plenty of posters here who like to claim Rooney just can't be arsed, doesn't put in a real effort, etc. And then you have others who claim he is our most "hard working" player. Both these groups probably lack incontrovertible evidence to back up their claims.
Simply because he'd played a lot of football by the time he went to Newcastle. Some players hit their peak early, and I think it's especially true for strikers who start at a young age. I was a child in 1996 so I won't pretend I held this opinion at the time, but it's a theory I think applies to a lot of players... in fact I've never fully bought into the idea that players peak around 27-30; they play so much football by that age I don't see how the body can hold up. Admittedly the injuries probably had a lot to do with Shearer's case (and probably with Fowler and Owen too) and I probably didn't give that part of the argument enough due in my original post.
Here's a revised version -
It makes no sense for people to keep bringing this up because it's clear from O'Shea's autobiography that it was just an attempt to get himself a better contract. Perhaps more obviously he was kept out of the team on, what, two occasions? That's not half as rare as people seem to be suggesting. I'd wager he's been "dropped" from the team in almost every season he's been here, in fact. Certainly in 10/11 before the transfer request, certainly in 08/09 for Tevez at the start, certainly in 12/13...it's not an issue. And he obviously wouldn't be worried about losing his place. Anyone that thinks he would has obviously forgotten he's still one of the best players in the league.
Are you on drugs you lunatic? Why a lot of these newly promoted posters complete arses anytime anyone questions them? I think the words you used were "no chance", my point is that there is a very good chance. Wayne has proven that played as the main striker he has it in him to be prolific and as you said he has 6 seasons as a top player. He would need to score an average of about 16/17 goals a season for those 6 seasons to become the top scorer in the premier league. Your "no chance" comment was nonsense as he clearly does have a chance.
But you're agreeing with shaggy and myself then, as we were responding to the suggestion that Rooney "works harder than anyone". What is that based on? Do we think Rooney tries harder than Rafael, or Carrick, or Valencia or anyone else? We are making the point that the suggestion lacks foundation, not so much making the case that Rooney ISN'T a hard worker.
I would say Chester has a point as I myself have often said Rooney looks like he doesn't give a shit. That isn't based on stats, just my own opinion on what I see on the pitch.
I actually agree with vasey for a change. Even Drogba in his six last seasons with Chelsea scored 'just' 80 goals in the league, and he was fantastic, though admittedly he was injured a lot. I don't even think Rooney will be in the prem for the rest of his career. 16/17 goals a season for 6 or 7 years in a row is incredibly difficult to achieve, especially for someone who as of yet has only scored more than that 2/3 times in his 11 years in the prem.
Edit - and why has my post suddenly gone spasticated and changed font size?
Hehe, yeah - and that is where the house selling analogy fails completely: We are the equivalent of someone selling a house to someone who can, in theory, pay much more than the market value (or any other valuation for that matter) and who may or may not want our house for reasons you won't find in any agent's manual. Just as we, as house owners, may have reasons to refuse even an outrageously high bid for similar (perhaps even perfectly irrational, strictly speaking) reasons.
To sum up, and confirm (hopefully) that we are indeed on the same page: When we don't need to sell, and may refuse to sell on grounds that wouldn't seem rational to a house broker, the wages Chelsea are willing to offer our player is not a relevant factor. They are, indeed, entirely Chelsea's problem. If, however, our aim is to sell a player to Chelsea - then, and only then, their wages become part of the equation.
And, erm - that's it, ain't it?
Is there an actual quote anywhere from Rooney where he says he is angry and confused?
I'm getting a bit blurry-eyed here, to be brutally honest, but yes - I do agree. The suggestion in question seems baseless enough. I've never seen any evidence that he works harder than anyone. But then again, I've never seen any evidence to suggest he's working less hard than "anyone" either.
No. I'm pretty sure there isn't.
Nope, people are just convinced it was leaked by Rooney's camp because it's been reported all over the show. You'd think Spoony's Kaká story would have made it clear how little people should pay attention to transfer "reports".
I have no problem with you thinking it's unlikely or even impossible. feck it, you could say you think fun loving aliens will land at OT tomorrow for all I care. Vasey acted a dick because I disagreed with him which seems to be a common theme at the minute.
I, for one, agree with you. He clearly has a chance. As a pure striker he is capable of scoring thirty per season at the moment. That's the main reason I don't want us to sell him to Chelsea, of all clubs, where he would be played as the main goal provider, nothing less.
The joke that he's fat and over the hill will haunt us mercilessly, I fear, if we let Maureen get his paws on him.
If these sentiments were inaccurate or didn't serve the ends of the Rooney camp then his PR would have briefed the media with a rebuttal of some kind, no?
Indeed Talksport said that they were contacted by such a company concerning these very quotes.
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