Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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Annihilate Now! said:
Then I would question our clubs adaptability/reaction to change. It's all well and good having a plan, but things very rarely go to plan, and surely we're a club that reacts when new opportunities arise.

You don't need to have scouted Mata to know he's a quality player. He's easily one of the best players in the league - certainly in the top 5. Saying we don't "need" him is a bit like saying we didn't "need" RVP last summer... he is a top quality player and would improve our side without question. Who doesn't "need" such improvements?!

Again, I'd like to point out that I don't think Mata was offered however,
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Of course you need to scout in research every player. If Mata turned up not being very good in a particular part of his game that we would be looking for any player in that position to utilise then it'd be a bit of a problem and the reason why ALL players are scouted and why weeks of research goes into every target to know them inside out.

If we wanted a right back with pace and a world class right back is offered who doesn't have pace, it's not always a no brainer to accept him just because he's world class because he might not have the specific attributes you're looking for.
 
Chelsea probably offered Luiz not Mata, in which case we are doing the right thing by rejecting the offer. Don't want Luiz, he's not very disciplined at either CB or CM. He's not the answer to the midfield problems
 
The Neviller said:
Like when Fergie signed Cantona?
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Ferguson suggested Cantona in the phone call so he was clearly a player he had been keeping tabs on, so the two situations aren't really similar at all.

Unless we want to start using Bebe's transfer as usual template for how deals are done now too?
 
Stickles said:
Of course you need to scout in research every player. If Mata turned up not being very good in a particular part of his game that we would be looking for any player in that position to utilise then it'd be a bit of a problem and the reason why ALL players are scouted and why weeks of research goes into every target to know them inside out.

If we wanted a right back with pace and a world class right back is offered who doesn't have pace, it's not always a no brainer to accept him just because he's world class because he might not have the specific attributes you're looking for. B
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So we wouldn't snap up messi if barca offered him to us for 50 mil? We'd need weeks of deliberation and research?
 
Adzzz said:
Don't get me wrong, Sideshow Bob isn't a top priority but Mata and Him and 10,000,000 just about cover my price for Rooney.
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The offer supposedly is Mata or Luiz + 10m, not Mata and Luiz + 10m. While Mata + 10m is a retarded offer from Chelsea, Mata + Luiz + 10m would be the worst piece of business a club has ever made. It would be an 60-70m offer for Rooney, twice as much as he's worth. None is that stupid, not even Roman.
 
If this bid is true , would Mata or Luiz want to leave and how will it look to those two players, that their club wants rid of them.
 
Stickles said:
I suspect we'd want all cash too. The Mata offer sounds appealing to some on paper but if he's not a player we've researched, scouted, followed etc it's a bit of a gamble. A lot more goes in to identifying players for the side rather than 'Oh he's good'. Which is why scouts and coaches spend weeks/months following players getting to know how they where their strengths and weaknesses in minute detail and assessing how that would work within the team or what needs to happen to compensate/enhance whatever abilities he brings. Mata may well be world class but to just sign him on the off he's been offered may be a bit of a risk as opposed to taking a hefty financial settlement and using that to fund players you've already identified that you want.
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How are you even real? You would have to be a total fecking idiot to think Mata would represent even the slightest risk as a signing.
 
Hectic said:
How are you even real?
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No fine, what happens is that Moyes sat down with a blank sheet of paper with the headline 'plans for the season' and he'll not have identified any players he wants much less the type of player he wants and he'll think "Well we'll see who's offered"
 
sammsky1 said:
We bought a 29 year old RVP with only one year on his contract for £24m. Given that, Rooney is worth £40m in my opinion, especially given the "English and PL proven" premium and that we'd be selling to a club like Chelsea who need and want him.

Mata is in the £25-30m mark. So, Mata plus 15m+ would be a fair deal. More than that, and we gain extra value, which is what we should aim for, given the club claims we have no need to sell him.
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I'd agree with that. When i said he's worth £25m 'easily' obviously means he's worth at least that. I know some have taken the word 'easily' to mean 'only' though :D

Rooney to Chelsea is worth at least £35m in my opinion, and for any less we shouldn't sell to them. I think we can bleed Chelsea dry because Abramovich will put his hand in his pocket to get him. They would pay £25m + a player (i'm going on the assumption that Mata isn't required in Mourinho's plans for Chelsea) that they want rid of, whatever his worth. That's the way Chelsea operate. No such thing as 'value', they want something, they get it.
 
"Boss, good news, there's a world class player who I think will really improve the team, he's available at a really good price and can play on the left."
"Was he on my sheet, Ed?"
"Uh no but .."
"Well feck off so!"
 
Stickles said:
No fine, what happens is that Moyes sat down with a blank sheet of paper with the headline 'plans for the season' and he'll not have identified any players he wants much less the type of player he wants and he'll think "Well we'll see who's offered"
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feck sake man, just because Mata isn't on that list doesn't mean Moyes wouldn't have him here, it just means Moyes didn't think anyone would be that stupid to sell him.
 
Mourinho favours the young Kevin de Bruyne for Mata's position and wishes to cash in on the Spaniard's current high standing in order to secure perhaps the only world class striker available in the game other than Suarez. If this offer was indeed made then United would be right to reject it imo; Chelsea need Rooney a whole lot more than United need Juan Mata right now. What's the point in our completing our main rival's team for them?
 
We're batshit mental if we've turned that bid now. Absolutely mental.
 
This is the club who pissed away £50m on Torres. Of course we'll play hard ball, of course we retain the stance that Rooney isn't for sale.

This sort of deal could drag on to deadline day.

But I maintain that I don't see a cash+player deal happen in this high profile situation, even though if Mata is an option I think we're mad to say no. He offers the versatility we have squeezed out of Rooney, he's got some incredible numbers at Chelsea and he always has a good game against us.
 
Chelsea have no other strikers available to buy that are quality - Either Suarez / Rooney.

IF Chelsea need a striker so bad lets hang them out to dry. Rooney is worth atleast £40M considering how marketable he is.
 
kouroux said:
Mata is so good that you don't need a lot research etc etc ... to consider signing him.
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Of course you do. If we wanted someone in MF to do X and that's something that isn't a particular strength at Mata's game you've go a choice whether you want to accept the swap deal or have money to fund transfer targets you've already identified.

It really isn't a case of "oh he's good, lets take him". This isn't football manager. Managers have plans and identified targets and systems in mind and all the rest of it. Someone being offered isn't necessarily always more than enough reason to potentially scrap these.
 
Why are people assuming it was Mata who was offered? It could have been that shitbag Luiz for all we know
 
Stickles said:
Of course you do. If we wanted someone in MF to do X and that's something that isn't a particular strength at Mata's game you've go a choice whether you want to accept the swap deal or have money to fund transfer targets you've already identified.

It really isn't a case of "oh he's good, lets take him". This isn't football manager. Managers have plans and identified targets and systems in mind and all the rest of it. Someone being offered isn't necessarily always more than enough reason to potentially scrap these.
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It really is in this case.
 
Stickles said:
Of course you do. If we wanted someone in MF to do X and that's something that isn't a particular strength at Mata's game you've go a choice whether you want to accept the swap deal or have money to fund transfer targets you've already identified.

It really isn't a case of "oh he's good, lets take him". This isn't football manager. Managers have plans and identified targets and systems in mind and all the rest of it. Someone being offered isn't necessarily always more than enough reason to potentially scrap these.
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I mean, it was basically the case with RvP last year, and that worked out ok.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
feck sake man, just because Mata isn't on that list doesn't mean Moyes wouldn't have him here, it just means Moyes didn't think anyone would be that stupid to sell him.
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Of course it doesn't but it does mean he'll want to have a look, consider the type of player he is, swat up on every aspect of his game to see whether or not it's viable.

That's all I'm saying but apparently what'll happen is that he'll get star struck, sign him and find out specific strengths and weaknesses to his game after he arrives
 
Chelsea don't have that many alternatives to Rooney. This bid shows they want him badly. Why not make them pay some more if they are desperate? This is what the club must be thinking while rejecting the bid, let's wait and see whether they come back with an improved bid.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Mourinho favours the young Kevin de Bruyne for Mata's position and wishes to cash in on the Spaniard's current high standing in order to secure perhaps the only world class striker available in the game other than Suarez. If this offer was indeed made then United would be right to reject it imo; Chelsea need Rooney a whole lot more than United need Juan Mata right now. What's the point in our completing our main rival's team for them?
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Because Mata would have completed us too. He had a much better season than Rooney last season, is younger and is on less wages. It makes perfect sense for us. Unless we think that we can sell Rooney for 40m or more abroad and we can fine a good replacement for him for 20m or so.

The deal makes perfect sense for us, and while it looks mental for Chelsea, it is probably good for them too.
 
Stickles said:
Of course it doesn't but it does mean he'll want to have a look, consider the type of player he is, swat up on every aspect of his game to see whether or not it's viable.

That's all I'm saying but apparently what'll happen is that he'll get star struck, sign him and find out specific strengths and weaknesses to his game after he arrives
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You're fecking nuts if you don't already think we have a very very good idea of our PL rivals best players strengths and weaknesses.
 
Stickles said:
Of course it doesn't but it does mean he'll want to have a look, consider the type of player he is, swat up on every aspect of his game to see whether or not it's viable.

That's all I'm saying but apparently what'll happen is that he'll get star struck, sign him and find out specific strengths and weaknesses to his game after he arrives
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is there a reason we wouldn't already know this about arguably the best player at a club we have been regularly playing for the last two years?
 
Stickles said:
Of course you do. If we wanted someone in MF to do X and that's something that isn't a particular strength at Mata's game you've go a choice whether you want to accept the swap deal or have money to fund transfer targets you've already identified.

It really isn't a case of "oh he's good, lets take him". This isn't football manager. Managers have plans and identified targets and systems in mind and all the rest of it. Someone being offered isn't necessarily always more than enough reason to potentially scrap these.
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Let me break it down for you really simply. Rooney wants to leave, Mata plays in his position and he can play out wide where we struggled last year, he also played better than Rooney last season. Logically it's a pretty simple decision to me. Plans don't stay regimented. Who promoted this guy so quickly?
 
Stickles said:
Of course it doesn't but it does mean he'll want to have a look, consider the type of player he is, swat up on every aspect of his game to see whether or not it's viable.

That's all I'm saying but apparently what'll happen is that he'll get star struck, sign him and find out specific strengths and weaknesses to his game after he arrives
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You're suggesting that Moyes doesn't know about Mata already?
 
I think that Chelsea will pay a very high fee just because they will feel that they got one over us.

I feel like we are really in the driving seat here.

This will end well.
 
Well good or bad, Moyes has provided the backdrop for some mental muppetry in our annual transfer threads. Its been quite a comical last 7 days!
 
Stickles said:
No fine, what happens is that Moyes sat down with a blank sheet of paper with the headline 'plans for the season' and he'll not have identified any players he wants much less the type of player he wants and he'll think "Well we'll see who's offered"
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It's a fecking no brainer to sign players like Mata, RVP and Falcao simply because they are players that will massively improve a clubs chances of success. They are established match winners that require no research.
 
Cina said:
I mean, it was basically the case with RvP last year, and that worked out ok.
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Difference is we approached Arsenal for RVP and had seen him as a target. If he wasn't a target and Arsenal said "you want RVP" of course we'd have had to think about it and perhaps looked into different aspects of his game that we may not have scrutinised so clinically as we would have done at that stage with other players who we had identified.

I don't think some appreciate just how much work goes into identifying a target. It's not just watching them play and making a conclusion. I'm not disregarding Mata's abilities but the way it's just dismissed as nonsense this idea that he may not be the sort of player we'd identified for the campaign is silly. As if all the planning that goes into identifying targets is "Someone in midfield....who's very good"

We'll need to know what type of system we'd need to play to make the most of him, for one and that might not have been something before now that we've planned for. So research IS needed as is consideration.
 
Stickles said:
Difference is we approached Arsenal for RVP and had seen him as a target. If he wasn't a target and Arsenal said "you want RVP" of course we'd have had to think about it and perhaps looked into different aspects of his game that we may not have scrutinised so clinically as we would have done at that stage with other players who we had identified.

I don't think some appreciate just how much work goes into identifying a target. It's not just watching them play and making a conclusion. I'm not disregarding Mata's abilities but the way it's just dismissed as nonsense this idea that he may not be the sort of player we'd identified for the campaign is silly. As if all the planning that goes into identifying targets is "Someone in midfield....who's very good"

We'll need to know what type of system we'd need to play to make the most of him, for one and that might not have been something before now that we've planned for. So research IS needed as is consideration.
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Just stop.
 
Stickles said:
Difference is we approached Arsenal for RVP and had seen him as a target. If he wasn't a target and Arsenal said "you want RVP" of course we'd have had to think about it and perhaps looked into different aspects of his game that we may not have scrutinised so clinically as we would have done at that stage with other players who we had identified.

I don't think some appreciate just how much work goes into identifying a target. It's not just watching them play and making a conclusion. I'm not disregarding Mata's abilities but the way it's just dismissed as nonsense this idea that he may not be the sort of player we'd identified for the campaign is silly. As if all the planning that goes into identifying targets is "Someone in midfield....who's very good"
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I'm pretty awful at wording stuff and so i get misunderstood a lot on here, but surely you understand that we need a midfielder, and there appeared to be very little class out there for us until this situation cropped up? He'd be perfect in our squad. I dunno if you're just miswording stuff?

We need a midfielder, we need rid of Rooney. They are supposedly offering money + one of the PL's best midfielders. We'd be mental not to snap their hands off.
 
Stickles said:
Difference is we approached Arsenal for RVP and had seen him as a target. If he wasn't a target and Arsenal said "you want RVP" of course we'd have had to think about it and perhaps looked into different aspects of his game that we may not have scrutinised so clinically as we would have done at that stage with other players who we had identified.

I don't think some appreciate just how much work goes into identifying a target. It's not just watching them play and making a conclusion. I'm not disregarding Mata's abilities but the way it's just dismissed as nonsense this idea that he may not be the sort of player we'd identified for the campaign is silly. As if all the planning that goes into identifying targets is "Someone in midfield....who's very good"
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But we didn't need RvP, he probably wasn't on this "sheet" you keep mentioning, he became available and SAF basically went "he's amazing, I want him". I'm not sure how difficult it is to fathom the idea that if a player is of a high enough standard as a footballer, the club should buy him. Do you really think our scouts are going to go "hang on boss, I know he's an amazing footballer, but he's not quick enough, don't buy him?".
 
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